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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!
Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Tucker Carlson with 100% fewer Fox shows to host. And thank God. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm a very happy Kara Swisher. And I'm Neha Miraza. Poor Tucker. I don't feel sorry for him in any way. Who's going to expose the truth, Kara? I don't know. I don't care.
At least this time he cannot blame our friend Jon Stewart, like when he got canned from CNN after Crossfire. He's got canned from a lot of places. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting canned from a lot of places. Of course, Fox issued these very bland statements about how they and Tucker had parted ways. Yeah. Though recent reporting from the Journal and the Times suggests the final death knell for him came from these text messages in which he hurled insults at senior executives, used crass language, and just showed general indiscretion and lack of loyalty. It just feels like...
He crossed Rupert one too many times. That's all. You know, you ultimately forget that company, all these hosts, whether it's Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck or whoever is on that, they all think they're bigger, and they're not bigger. Did you hear that God theory? No. Gabe Sherman in Vanity Fair wrote a piece that it was Tucker's religiosity that got in the way. What? That he gave this Heritage Foundation gala speech on Friday night where he was kind of inviting everyone to pray and
And according to the source in Gabe Sherman's reporting, Rupert did not like that. Well, I don't know. That seems ridiculous. After all these years of so much hapless crap that this would be the thing. You don't think it's Tucker Carlson's godliness? No. If you can read my upcoming book, I have found all the emails back and forth between News Corp and Walt and I. And it was very similar to that. We told them we were leaving, and they tried very hard to make it look like they fired us. But then we had emails asking us to stay,
And so that's how I got them to release the celebrity breakup press release, which is like both the hard way. They very much tried to make it look like they fired Wolf. From Gabe Sherman's piece, the source says, that stuff freaks Rupert out. He doesn't like all the spiritual talk. And apparently they get into his ex-fiance. I mean, this is like his ex-fiance. She was very religious, yeah. And Leslie Smith was a very religious woman, and apparently that creeped him out, reportedly. Well, Uncle Satan don't like no religion. Yeah.
Uncle Satan. You don't pray around Uncle Satan. That's my loving name for Rupert Murdoch. So just for people who don't know. It's very loving, I would say. It's a way to get back at your exes. It's just a can all their favorite programming. I don't know. I asked my mom, what are you going to do with that Tucker? She goes, I just put it on for background noise. So I guess...
He doesn't care who's yapping at her about, you know, whatever isn't in the news. What would you do next if you were Tucker Carlson? Go to Newsmax? Go to Russian TV? Who's soliciting him? No, I think he, you know, he's going to think he's bigger than anyone else. Again, he still thinks he is in his head. But in this case, the platform was critical to him. Is it Jonah Goldberg who came onto our old show and told us that Tucker would maybe be a formidable contender for president and the GOP? Could be. Could be. Scary thought. I think Trump would turf him.
And I turf him like he does the rest. The only one he can't turf is...
Joe Biden. We'll get to that in a second. But one more media oust this week we should talk about. Don Lemon. Yeah. Ousted from CNN on Monday. While Tucker hasn't made public comments, Don was very quick to get his story out. Yeah. I did think his days were numbered. I did too. So what about if you were Don Lemon? What would you do next? Oh, hard too. Same thing. The platform's really important for a lot of these people. I think even more important for Don. Well, he's getting paid through 2026, so that's good. He makes a lot of money. Maybe...
Maybe CBS. He's a very good broadcaster, so I suspect he's, you know, I don't think in any way he's damaged goods like that. He said something stupid 15 years ago. He was mean to people, especially women. He could go resurrect Crossfire with Tucker. The two of them. Yeah, it would be just really noisy. That would be funny. But anyway, speaking of announcements...
Here's another one that's not an exit, but a potential continuation. Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Officially announced he's running for reelection on Tuesday morning. Yes, he did. In a video. In a moment, we'll get to our guest today, former White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain, who you interviewed last week before the announcement was made, but when it was very much presumed to be happening. Yeah, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Exactly. But before we get there, let's talk about the announcement itself. As you said, it's on video. It's always on video. This has become the way to announce things.
Well, maybe he didn't have an escalator at Trump Tower to ride down. I don't know. And a racist speech to make on the other end. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It starts with January 6th and it ends at a message of unity. And that way it's a little similar to his 2020 bid where it starts with the Charlottesville. Yeah. And it adds in a message of unity. I think he's grabbing all the Republican talking points. I thought freedom, he kept, the word freedom came a lot. And that's a Republican word. Like, don't let anyone not be, you know, he's,
going to aim at all the laws, whether it's abortion or voting rights or trans issues. They're not letting you be who you want to be. Don't you want to be who you want to be? That kind of thing. I heard it as a unity call. I mean, the one thing that I will say is odd, as a person who makes videos, he was direct to camera for fewer than 10 seconds in this video. And compare that to last time where it was two and a half minutes of a three and a half, you know, it was almost all the time he was direct to camera. And this time it's a
a lot of what we would call B-roll in the business. It's okay. He's got things to show. He did. Look what I did for you. Yeah, they're making a bet that showing shots of him being presidential are higher value than him kind of carrying the camera. I might have made a different choice. I think people are expecting to hear from him in a big way.
I don't think he has to do the big sale for himself. I think he just shows what he did and what he's done and what he's going to do. And it is calm. He should do fear and hope probably is probably the best way. Yeah, he's doing a lot. He's leaning into hope. But fear, speaking of fear, the RNC put out their own response of sorts. This AI-generated video filled with fake headlines. They're like imagining the terrible future of whatever.
what they call the worst president ever is reelected. Do you watch this video? It's ridiculous. No matter what you say about Biden, he's calmed the country down significantly. And I think for them to say that he's the crazy one is kind of funny. Yeah. It's alarmist to say the least. If you've not seen the video, it's like, what if the weakest president ever is reelected? What if China invades Taiwan? What if banks fail? It's like fan fiction, fear mongering. It's
It's dark. Fan fiction. People are tired of dark. We've had enough dark. I think they're just trying, they're trying to make him a Carter. I guess. It's not going to work. Well, while the GOP video is really targeting at the counterfactual using artificially generated images, Biden's able to talk to the factual. Like he's actually responding to, hey, here's what happened on January 6th.
here's the erosion of unity. Here's what I've done. Yeah, it's just the video. Who cares? It's going to matter. It's going to matter where things go and where news goes and indictments. And there's so much longer to go and so many more Trump indictments to go. But this one does matter. The AI here, it seems like a ploy. They're using this AI-generated look
This is an issue. I mean, leaving this video aside, this GOP video has a fifth, I want to say, of the Biden announcement video views by the time that we're taping this. So it's, you know, smaller in scale, yet it does raise really important questions about what happens when...
When AI-generated voices, deepfakes, misinformation are used in campaign advertising, we're already seeing fake images of Trump praying, fake images of Trump being arrested that were shared by his son, my former Georgetown classmate, Eric Trump. Social media companies have said that they're considering this. I mean, there's all these...
Twitter says that it doesn't allow this and yet the video lives there. I just don't rely on them to do anything. I think they'll cut the most egregious ones and everything else will slip through just like it did last time. Trump's got his gang who doesn't, no matter what you said to them, they're not going to change their mind. You got the Democrats who no matter what you said to them, they're not going to change their mind on Trump. Which makes you think, what is all this advertising for? Because people are pretty much decided and super PACs have like turned up the heat on this advertising. In real life is what's going to matter. Yeah.
You know, in this election. The indictments, whether Joe Biden is cognitively in touch with himself, that's going to be a big issue. And the indictment, Trump, how much of a criminal is he, is really where it's going. Well, our guest today had lots to say about that. It's former White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain.
You taped this conversation with him late last week when Biden hadn't yet officially announced he was running, and Klain had just announced that he was going back to his old law firm, which would allow him to continue as an informal advisor to Biden if he would like. Yeah. And this was part of Georgetown's John Carroll weekend. Yeah, it's a weekend for alumni. And so I wanted to interview Ron, and I've known him for a long, long time because he was in tech, too. He worked with Steve Case. And then we did another interview when he was chief of staff, and this is when he's left. So the exit interview, that's what we called it.
Well, I was also an alumni at Georgetown. I was sadly not at this weekend. My sister was visiting from Rome. And I'm sorry I wasn't there, both because I love Georgetown...
but also because I would have yanked the cutlery out of the guests' hands. I know. Sorry about this, everybody. Apologies. Including the hands of Nancy Pelosi and Paul Pelosi. Paul Pelosi is a Georgetown alum, and they were both there in the audience, and the audience is clanking away while they're eating lunch. Well, they were hungry. I don't know what to tell you people. Yeah, it's a really good interview, and clanking is what you're going to have to deal with to hear with it. Anyways, let's take a quick break, and we'll get back with the interview. ♪
you
On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.
So it was just announced you'll return to O... O'Melveny & Myers. O'Melveny & Myers as a partner in litigation department. This will allow you to be an informal advisor to President Biden's reelection campaign. Do you think you'll become a not-so-formal advisor again? Do you see yourself... No, I'm committed to law practice and will offer whatever advice I can to the president from the outside. But, you know, I'm happy to help with his campaign, but I'm not really a campaign operative per se. And so I don't think I'm going to go out and, like, run...
the state campaign in Michigan or something like that. I'm going to offer advice. Seems a little bit below your pay grade. Below my pay grade. It's a very important job. Yes, I get that. But I'm not moving to Michigan right now. Okay. But would you go back into an administration? You've been, your whole life has been moving in and out of administrations. Yeah. I mean, I think it's possible, but I've had my chance to serve. I enjoyed it. It was a great opportunity.
And I think it's good that other people get the chance to serve too. Is there a different role you would like? Because if you could pick any of them? I don't know. Come on, you know. You're like that. I don't know. I...
I worked a long time to get the job I had. I did it. I think it was successful and I enjoyed it. Worked with great people, great opportunity. And now I'm enjoying a little quieter life. So I saw your going away speech back in February. It was emotional. You cried. When you think about what you weren't able to get done, what makes you teary right now? I think two things really stand out in my mind immediately. One is voting rights.
The speaker made a big effort to get that done and did an incredibly great job of getting it through the House, but we could not get the votes in the Senate to override the filibuster to pass in the Senate. We have a huge crisis of democracy in this country. We have a lot of states where voting rights laws are being rolled back, and I think the federal government needs to do something about voting rights. It's the one thing I really wish we had done that we hadn't gotten done, and we need to do something about guns. You know, I think we were able to take...
We were able to pass a bipartisan gun bill that had some helpful measures after the tragedies in Texas and Buffalo. But obviously, we still have way too many assault weapons on the streets. They're way too easy to get. They're way too widely dispersed. I worked for President Biden, Senator Biden, when we passed through the Senate the first time the ban on assault weapons way back in the 1990s. And it's time to do that again.
So let's move on to your successor, Jeff Zients. The left has been very wary of him compared to you, I would say. They like you, but he was a business-friendly private equity guy, deficit hawk. What was the calculus behind shifting to him versus from you? You told writer Chris Whipple you thought the job would go to a woman.
I had thought that earlier on, but Jeff was the logical choice. He had experience in the Biden White House running the COVID response. Someone the president knew and trusted. He's a very good manager, good leader. I think he's off to a very good start. I'm curious why you thought it was going to go to a woman and it didn't.
Why was he the obvious choice? Because I think the president wanted to bring someone back to the White House who had been there previously, who knew him and the team, but would be additive to come back in as opposed to taking someone who was there and promoting that person. And Jeff had done a very good job running the COVID response. Will there ever be a woman White House chief of staff? I hope so. There should be. Yeah, it would be nice for one.
I was proud of the fact that we were the first White House in history that had a majority of the senior staff was female, majority of the whole White House staff was female, majority of the senior staff was female. First cabinet in history where the cabinet was equally balanced between men and women. And I think that was very helpful to our administration. And someday there should be a female White House chief of staff, no question about it. Do you see anyone in the next administration if Biden wins? I'm not going to get ahead of myself on that. All right, okay.
Let me then ask you about Vice President Harris. The New York Times said you were her most important internal ally. According to Chris Whipple, Biden said the vice president is a work in progress. Now that you're gone, who's her biggest booster, speaking of a prominent woman in the White House? I think the president has always been her biggest booster and remains that. And I know that my successor, Jeff Zients, works with her very closely.
I think Vice President Harris has done an excellent job. I think she takes a lot of grief unjustifiably. And being vice president is a very, very tough job because this is a country that always thinks dubiously about someone who's the number two. And we're a number one kind of country. And I live with that with Al Gore and Joe Biden when they were both vice president. And she makes a major contribution to the administration. And I think
She'll hopefully she'll get more and more recognized for that Why hasn't she been able to shake the perception that she's bad at her job and give me a little more of a new answer? I know sexism and racism are a huge problem, but that doesn't explain all the bad press Well, I do think sexism and racism are part of the problem. No question about it. Um, I think that um, you know, I think she was not as well known in national politics before she became vice president and um
You know, I think that, you know, she just hasn't had the right-- she hasn't gotten the credit for all that she's done. She's done a lot of very hard work and been very successful as vice president. And I think hopefully during the campaign season, American people will get more of a chance to see her on the stump and get to know her a little better. Mm-hmm. One of the things she's taken the lead on in the White House is the legal developments around abortion. And ever since Dobbs was released, it's been known to drive turnout for the Democrats.
But President Biden didn't say much about it in this year's State of the Union. At one point, he said he was pro-life, so he's evolved on that issue. Should he leave this heavy lifting to Harris or take a more central role? What is the role of the White House in this? Well, the president made the issue of choice a major issue in the midterms. And we've done a lot of things. The Biden administration has done a lot of things to try to respond to Dobbs, including setting up a task force.
to try to work on the legal issues around the follow-up from Dobbs and try to make sure that Mifepresto remains available, protect women's right to travel. They live in states where their choices are limited. And so those things, I think it's a logical issue for the vice president to lead on.
I think that when Joe Biden was vice president, he led on similar issues where there are many different federal agencies involved and some of the White House needs to be the point person. And I think she's done a very good job as a point person on this issue. So how strong should Biden himself go out on this issue? He has gone out on this and has directed the administration to be very active in defense of women's rights.
Do you think it's a still a potent issue? Most people didn't think it was in the midterms It turned out to be a big deal just in Wisconsin. It became a very big deal Yeah, the judge won by not a small amount a large amount. Yeah. Yeah, especially by young people I think it's a big issue You know I think it obviously has been a big issue to drive turnout and hopefully that that will continue through 2024 and that we'll get enough of a majority in the House and Senate to pass federal legislation to
to enshrine a woman's right to choose into federal statutes so that these state laws can't chip away at it. When you think about all the bills that are being passed across the country in Florida, the six-week, which they did in the dark of night, they're doing it across states. Why is that happening when it's clear they keep losing on this issue politically? It's just because they're getting while the getting's good or what? Look, I think that for the folks who have a very strong view on this,
They spent 50 years trying to get Roe versus Wade overturned, and they've had a battle plan, and they're implementing that battle plan. And I think most Americans are on the other side of that. But I think you're seeing a lot of this legislation in Republican-controlled states that reflects a very deliberate agenda to restrict liberty, restrict freedom, restrict voting rights, restrict reproductive rights.
And I think that's why I think we need strong action by the federal government. From a political point of view, is it smart to do this? Because the same thing is happening on trans issues and now gay and lesbian issues. In Florida, they had passed the Don't Say Gay bill. They said it was only restricted to young kids. And now it's suddenly-- which I always thought was the case-- it's going to 12th grade. Are these important issues for Democrats? I think it's important for Democrats to stand up for a freedom agenda, which includes voting rights, equal rights, LGBTQ rights.
Rights for Disney. Stop being mean to Disney. Reproductive rights. And I think that's very important. You're now seeing some of these red states, them trying to override local control of the schools and local control of voting and things like that. And I think one of the biggest changes we've seen in American demographics in recent years has been the rise of some very
effective blue cities in red states, Austin, Texas, and some places even in Florida. And I think you're seeing state legislatures in the red states trying to claw back authority from those cities. I think that's a very bad development that we're getting the federal government to step in and
and protect these basic fundamental rights like the right to choose across the country. It's interesting because it's sort of a shift in that Republicans are being much more meddlesome. You know, that's the sort of the Democrat that's supposedly a Democrat then. It's the trope around Democrats. What's interesting is I had a business in Florida and I pulled it out because of the Don't Say Gay bill because I knew they'd go right into 12th grade.
And people started attacking me and calling me all kinds of names on Twitter. And so I called her a communist because I'm a capitalist and I want to take my business wherever I want. And I said, if you're comfortable with capitalism, you know, that's great. I mean...
And I was joking about it, but I was like, it's none of your business where I put my business. It's my business. I can do whatever I want. And I was joking about communists, but now I'm like, maybe not. Maybe you are. You know, this kind of meddlesomeness of a state like Florida, and you're seeing it elsewhere. You're seeing it everywhere with Anheuser-Busch, with Disney. You're seeing it in states like Arkansas, closing down what businesses can do around drag shows. I don't think there's many drag shows in Arkansas, so I'm not sure why they're spending all this time. Yeah.
There's like one drag person in Arkansas. But why... Talk about that issue because it's really an interesting political issue when you think about it. If you're in the White House right now and you're watching this, pretend you're chief of staff again and you're thinking of a campaign. I think what you're thinking is that you're seeing kind of a...
big change in American politics around cultural polarization. And the Republican Party, which used to be a pro-business party, is increasingly focused on trying to drive what they think is a culture war. And that includes attacking business. I think all the examples you cited, Kara, plus
The Republican attack on ESG, on the idea that there are businesses that think that it's good business for them to invest in environmentally sound initiatives and sustainability. And Republicans now trying to keep businesses from doing that seems very anti-business. That's obviously very anti-environment.
But I think it is an opportunity for Democrats to kind of scramble the eggs back in American politics and make it clear that we believe in a lot of freedoms.
I think reproductive rights are at the top of that list. They're not the only thing on that list. And I think this is going to be a big issue in the years ahead in our country. Even Trump is like, enough. Stop. When he's the reasonable one, you've got a real issue, I think. He said something the other day. I'm like, reasonable? And I'm like, what?
House Speaker McCarthy recently used a plan that tied the debt ceiling to spending, which he's been talking about. Back in 2013, Biden cut a deal with McConnell that led to the sequestration cuts. What's going to happen now that Biden is going up against McCarthy in this thing? What do you imagine? Well, I'm especially not going to make a prediction in front of Speaker Pelosi because she's the best person to answer that question. But I'll say this. But she's not running it anymore. Yeah. Yes, she is. She's still...
Look, I think that the debt we have, public debt we have, was accumulated under a number of presidents, no more than under Donald Trump. He accumulated 25% of the entire national debt in his four years in office.
And so it's an obligation to do responsible things to make sure this government pays the bills it said it would pay. And when the speaker led the House when Donald Trump was president, we raised the debt limit three times. And the House should do the same thing now. It should pass a bill to raise the debt limit. I think a conversation about fiscal policy is a good conversation to have. And while there are things that should be cut or taxes that should be raised to bring down the debt, that's a perfectly excellent conversation.
The country hostage holding our markets hostage holding our businesses hostage. That's a horrible way to go and the consequences for that are
will hit people, Republicans or Democrats. The Republican strategy of saying, we're going to drive the economy off the cliff if we don't get what we want on these fiscal issues is a strategy that will wind up hurting a lot of people without regard to their political affiliation. Again, it's on the same strain of this is not what people want or it's not popular and they're doing it. Can Biden keep these unlinked? Is the time pressure here helpful? Or how do you imagine it happening, again, if you were in the White House? Time pressure is always helpful because Congress
when there's urgency to act. And there's gonna be urgency here, and so I think that's an encouraging thing. But I think there's just a question of some basic fundamental responsibilities. You know, President Biden didn't put all his spending and tax cuts in, and the bills have to be paid for those things. And I think that the Speaker's plan, which looks like it's gonna be a series of relatively lower dollar cuts and still painful cuts in domestic programs without addressing the real fundamental
Fiscal challenge we have which is that the Trump tax cuts were put in place They weren't paid for who's gonna blank on that. Well, I think it's question of blinking. I think it's a question of Responsibility we went through this in 2011 in the Obama White House in the end We'll just see how close to the edge Republicans choose to take us and how much havoc they choose to wreak before they do the responsible thing What's your guess?
I don't know. You don't know from knowing Kevin McCarthy? I don't know Kevin McCarthy that well, and I don't know how much of it's really his choice. He has a very divided caucus, and he lacks the skill of the Speaker to bring people together. The Speaker had a very divided caucus, and she had an international ability to bring people from all sides of the caucus together around solutions. Yeah. So I would say she didn't have Marjorie Taylor Greene, so...
Even you would have a problem with Martin, correct? The Democrats would never have that. That's true. Yes. Yes.
Okay, fair point. Over in the Senate, and we're going to get to international in a minute, over in the Senate, Republicans blocked Democratic's efforts to install temporary replacement for Dianne Feinstein, my senator for many years, on the Judiciary Committee as she recovers from shingles. That puts more pressure on Feinstein to resign for the end of her term next year. She said she won't, but effectively holds up Biden's judicial nominees. And given the number in the Senate, Republicans have no incentive to, I mean, I wouldn't do it if I were Mitch McConnell either. So what's the solution here?
I think the solution here hopefully is for Senator Feinstein to recover her health and get back and start voting on the Judiciary Committee again. That's the best solution. Sure. I think the Republicans have to be part of a solution here overall because some Senate policies that favor them, like the blue slip policy, are under attack. And I think that they're going to have to find a way to come up with a reasonable accommodation. Many of these judges wind up getting Republican votes on the floor.
And so the idea that they're bottled up in committee when if they got out of committee they would pass with a bipartisan vote in the Senate is a shame. I think the President Biden's judicial nominations is one of the great legacies of his administration, something I worked a lot on, very, very proud of. He appointed more judges in his first year than any president since John F. Kennedy. Even with this holdup now, he's still ahead of the pace that either Trump or Obama had. So it's still a lot of success. And with unprecedented diversity,
and diversity of background and racial diversity. President Biden has put more black women on the courts of appeals than every other president in American history combined.
But they're not going to do it. They're not going to do it. They're not going to allow that to happen. We'll see. We'll see. You'll see? Tell me. I think Chairman Durbin and Leader Schumer will find a way to get these nominees out of the committee and onto the floor. Without cooperation from Republicans? Well, I think that they'll find a formula that gets it done. Okay. Is that the secret formula? No. I think it's, you know...
some way of accommodating the Republican interests in the blue slip policy and accommodating, you know, the need for Republican votes on the floor to get them confirmed. Without Senator Feinstein having to resign. Without her resigning. We'll be back in a minute.
At the time we're taping this, Biden has declared he's running for reelection. Is there something he can ever do to effectively address his age? Let me just say, I talked to Press Secretary Jen Psaki, former press secretary, and she said the White House needs to get him out more on the rope lines, talking to people. It's his favorite and best place. What do you think is that issue, how big it's going to be in the election? Well, I think it will be an issue.
I do think it'll be helpful when the president is able to go out and campaign, interact with people. That's his strongest strength as an elected official is he's great with people. He's great doing retail politics.
He's great at interacting with people. He finds it very useful. He learns about how things are going out in the country in a very direct way. I think the flip side of age is experience and wisdom. We went through a situation in Ukraine where in the run up to the Russian invasion, most of the experts around the world said there's not going to be an invasion. And the president had the experience and the wisdom to say, it is coming. We need to get ready for it. We need to do things. I think a lot of his success on Capitol Hill, in addition to the hard work of the speaker and leader Schumer and others,
was the product of his experience and his relationships. And so I think, you know, with his long career comes a lot of expertise and a lot of perspective and wisdom that I think has been very critical to the successes of the administration. So is that how you would spin it? It's like, he may be old, but he's experienced.
I think that, I don't know, I wouldn't call it spin. What I'd say is that's my perspective. That's not a good spin. Again, I wouldn't be good in politics. That's my perspective, which is I saw him make a lot of decisions. But are you worried about them using that? I mean, again, Trump becomes a nominee. Does it help neutralize it? He's not a young fella. I think that the contrast between ex-President Trump and President Biden will be a very sharp contrast if that's the way the race shakes out, and I expect it will be. Again, I think that
President Biden's wisdom and expertise has led to a lot of good results and will lead to more good results. So is it an issue? Is this something the White House is thinking about a lot? It is an issue. We know it's an issue. We know voters raise it. We know journalists raise it. Yeah. And... Well, this...
The Senate is pretty old, let's be honest. I mean, the age is much higher than the population by a long shot, for example. Yeah. I think the president's record is a credit to him and reflects the benefit of his experience and wisdom. You just said Biden, Trump, it's part two. It's like a Rocky movie that never ends. But...
How should he handle, you know, besides going get a load of this guy, which I think was highly effective, how should he handle the Trump legal woes? Is going high when they go low going to work here? I would go low myself. Yeah, I think the Trump legal woes will speak for themselves. I think the president's going to, when he gets in the race, I think he will talk about what the unfinished work of the economy is and other issues and what he intends to do if he gets reelected.
Think I think the contrast is a powerful contrast. There's not some advantage in going. Hey 26 indictments over here I think the contrast the president is gonna drive It's a contrast between someone who spent four years saying we'd have infrastructure week and a president who succeeded in passing an infrastructure bill which means we're gonna have a decade of Great public investment improving the nation's infrastructure. Mm-hmm. I think the contrast between chaos and results is
And I think that's the contrast. Okay. So talk about very quickly the rest of the GOP. You have Christie going anti-Trump. He's about the only one. Asa Hutchinson. And then you have DeSantis getting the shit kicked out of him by Bob Iger. And you have a bunch of others. You have a bunch of others. Do you see any of them breaking through? Because DeSantis seems to be
Look, I think Donald Trump will be the nominee of the Republican Party in 2024. I think that's in part because he has a very devoted base, but I also think it's in part because he is a skilled candidate. I think it's worth remembering that in 2016, Trump beat some of the most leading rising stars of the Republican Party. He beat Ted Cruz. He beat Marco Rubio. He beat Jeb Bush, of course.
And I think it's a mistake to underestimate Donald Trump as a politician. He was a horrible president, but he found a way to defeat every Republican who came after him and defeat Secretary Clinton, who was an excellent candidate. And I think that he should not be underestimated politically. I think there's only one person who's ever beaten him. It's Joe Biden. And I think that's why it's important to have the president run for re-election, get nominated, so we can make sure he beats him a second time. So when you think about the future of the Democratic Party, the future of the Republican Party, I want you to name two people in each that you think
Or very promising. You can name six. I don't care. Yeah, I'd say I'm not much of an expert on the Republicans. I don't think they want my advice on their rising stars. Name one or two. I'd say in the Democratic Party, Governor Newsom certainly is. Governor Whitmer certainly is. And I think there are plenty of others. I think, I don't know about the Republicans. Come on. I'm going to pass on that. No, you're not. Yes, I am. Come on. Yes, I am. One.
Not my place to say. Not Mike Pence. Not Mike Pence. Mike Pence is a rising star. No, I don't either. So no, there's no rising stars. I don't know. As I said, I think we've got a very deep and very impressive bench. I think Leader Jeffries took over for the Speaker, is doing an excellent job. And we have other great rising stars in the House of Representatives, a lot of these great governors and democratic states. So not Mike Lindell?
I bought one of his pillows once. It wasn't very good. Okay, okay.
So I don't think he's the future. Okay, so let's talk about Ukraine. President Biden went on a surprise trip to Ukraine earlier this year. He's argued repeatedly for continued support for Ukraine, but he needs Republican votes to do it. They seem wobblier. How does he get them when the fight over the debt limit is going on and you have Xi Jinping getting closer and closer to Russia? He said in a recent trip that it's a journey of friendship, cooperation, and peace. How do you look at what's happening now? And Ukraine is the fulcrum for a lot of
bigger geopolitical issues. It is a fulcrum for a lot of bigger geopolitical issues. I think that our success in aiding the Ukrainians is one of the great foreign policy successes of the modern era. I think very few people believed that a small country like Ukraine could hold off a Russian invasion as well as they did. It was a matchup of David and Goliath. And when you think about the fact everyone in this room spent most of their adult lives
It's having to fund tens and hundreds of billions of dollars into Western Europe to defend against a potential Russian invasion of Western Europe. To have one small country hold off Russia's army is an amazing achievement. I think most of the credit for that goes to the Ukrainian people themselves, their character, their courage, their creativity in fighting this war. But I think we all as Americans should be proud of the fact that we have been very, very critical to their defense in terms of providing weapons and economic support, technical expertise.
I think this is a critical battle for democracy. If the Russians are able to just come into another country and take it over, there's no reason to think it will stop in Ukraine. And everyone in this room, particularly the SFS grads, should know how this story goes if that kind of thing happens in Europe. It never goes well not only for Europe, it never goes well for the rest of the world either. And I think the president's success in working with our allies
Even though they bear a lot of the brunt of the consequences of this war, in terms of energy prices that they've seen go up, impacts on their economy, huge, huge swells of migration, millions of people leaving Ukraine having to be relocated in other European countries, Poland, Germany. It's been an incredible challenge to the allies and the president's work with our allies. I think it's been a great success.
But we're going to continue to deliver on this. I understand why-- How do you do that politically when some republic-- I mean, I was listening to-- speaking of Marjorie Taylor Greene's, they were Russian talking points. They actually sounded like Russian talking points.
I think there are still a lot of responsible Republicans on this issue. And the president's going to have to continue to work with them and try to continue to build up the bipartisan support we need to continue to-- Who's an important Republican on that issue? Senator McConnell is a critical Republican on this issue. He's been stalwart in his support of Ukraine throughout this. Mike Pompeo was just there. He's not in office. Yeah, good for him. He's not in office. He's not running. He's not running. So he's not a Republican star. But go ahead.
So, uh, but look I think that hopefully, you know, we can continue to have a broad bipartisan support for the sephora. I understand why The American people want to see their tax dollars spent at home. I understand that I'm sympathetic to that But we are doing ourselves well by making this investment in helping Ukraine defend against this aggression and in having them fight this before it becomes a broader war in Europe and so I think that that's
You know, I think it's a very economically effective use of taxpayer funds. What about the entrance of China? Well, I think the president's made it very clear that China should not, you know, get involved in a more aggressive way to support Russia. Obviously, they're a major player. And, you know, when the president took office, he said his inaugural address, we're facing an era where we're in a crisis between democracy and autocracy. And this is what we're seeing around the world now, which is the possibility of a Russian-Chinese alliance.
with threats to Europe, Ukraine, and with threat to Taiwan. And I think that the democracies of the world need to stand up, stand against that. We've seen new members of NATO, and I think that's very helpful. It's a very positive move, very encouraging.
I think we have to continue to rally the democracies around the world to stand up for democracies. So meanwhile, Secretary of State Blinken postponed a visit to China earlier this year after the balloon was spotted. Secretary Yellen announced new restrictions on American investment in China. What's the strategy here? Do you want to diffuse?
the problems with China, and then there's the TikTok ban, which is never going to happen. But what is the strategy here? The strategy here is to try to find a way we can work cooperatively with China in areas of mutual interest and try to make China more integrated into the global economy. But to make clear that we're not going to tolerate incursions on our sovereignty. We're not going to just sit back and let China's
with the Russians on these security issues. I'm using the TikTok ban because it seems silly, but it's not. It's a very big issue. It feels like it's become a centerpiece of Washington and China policy, not just with Biden, but the Republicans, true. In March, the Biden administration told TikTok that the owners had to sell the app or face a ban, both of which seem difficult at best. I do believe capitalism doesn't force you to sell any company you don't want to. The Chinese government responded. They would firmly oppose the sale and suggested a ban would shake investor confidence.
TikTok CEO Xiao Chu said the sale wouldn't necessarily address the core issue for the flow of data from the app. Why focus on TikTok and also then ignore the bad behavior of American social media companies? Well, I don't think the response to TikTok is the centerpiece of
No, but it focuses it. I think there's been a lot of attention to that because it's a thing people understand and it kind of draws interest and draws... Congressional hearings. Congressional hearings and whatnot. But I understand the concerns about TikTok, but I don't think that's our principal problem in US-China relations, that's for sure. Speaking of American social media companies, how's the relationship between the Biden administration and Elon Musk these days?
Well, it's rocky. I think that Mr. Musk promised to take up an initiative I had discussed with him while I was there about making Tesla's charging stations interoperable with non-Tesla vehicles, which would be a major step forward in the rollout of EVs around the country. Hopefully, he'll follow through on that. He says he's going to. He says he's going to. He often says things and then doesn't do them, or they're not accurate. But go ahead. Yeah. So I think that would improve the relationship if he did that. But...
You know, the Biden administration feels very strongly that we obviously need to roll out EVs. The president also generally is a strong supporter of unions. Tesla is not a union company. No. And I think that's always had an impact on the relationship. But hopefully Mr. Musk will keep his commitment to make the charging stations open.
And he's also very involved in Ukraine, too, with Starlink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's going to be an important issue. So he's clearly a global leader. He's a global player, no question about it. How do you manage something like that? I'm just curious, why didn't you were nicer to her on the EV stuff? That really angered him. I know this. I talked to him after that. Yeah, what they did is they didn't...
We had a summit about EVs, and we invited the unionized companies in America. And we did not invite him. And I talked to him after that. And he said he wanted to hear the president say that Tesla was the largest electric car maker in America. And the president did say that. Which they are. Which they are. He said it because it's true. But...
But I think Mr. Musk has his own hands full with his problems at Tesla. And Twitter. And Twitter. He's got problems there too. Yeah. Did you lose your blue check also? I believe I did. You did. We are now no longer lords and ladies of the internet. Yeah. Are you sad? Not really. Yeah, me neither.
I'm on Twitter less now than when I was chief of staff. You were a little Twitter crazy. I don't think I was Twitter crazy. Yes, I do. I appreciate that. Yeah. It's always bad when... I'm a professional Twitterer and I'm here to tell you you have a problem, Rob. Yeah.
I found Twitter an effective way to communicate with our supporters around the country and to communicate with allies. It was a hobby for me. Oh, yeah. You had a lot of interests. Yeah. I had quite an interest. But I'm on it a lot less now, and I believe I've lost my blue check. Okay. But when you look at the relationship with tech right now, it was very friendly during the Obama administration. Too friendly, in my estimation. Do you...
Why, and should I believe Biden or anyone else in Washington will be able to rein in powerful people like Elon? And not just Elon. There was no antitrust legislation passed, no privacy bill, no nothing. These are important issues. And misinformation is not even discussed. Yeah, they are important issues. And I think hopefully we can get moving Congress on a privacy bill.
And I think that the administration's relationship with tech is less close than it was under President Obama. And the centerpiece of the Biden economic agenda is not tech. The centerpiece of the Biden economic agenda is manufacturing. And some of that manufacturing is high tech, obviously chips, but it's not the social media companies.
And I think that that is just what it is. And with artificial intelligence, you have the opportunity to regulate now as opposed to the internet, which you've never regulated. Not you, but any government official. Well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. How do you think about artificial intelligence going forward? Well, I think that it's obviously a hot topic in Washington, as you've seen. Yes. I think there's a tremendous opportunity for good things to come out of AI, and there has to be some reasonable safeguards. Do you think there will be?
I don't know. We'll see. I do not. Okay. So far, based on legislative. Okay, my last question. If you were starting college today versus 40 years ago, both of us would not get into Georgetown. That's obvious. We wouldn't. We wouldn't. Maybe you would. We'll see. No, we would not. I can assure you, looking at the thing today. I will say this. I had the great pleasure of being an adjunct professor at Georgetown.
from 2011 through 2017. And the students I taught at Georgetown were definitely brighter and more impressive than the students I went to Georgetown with.
No offense to the people I went to Georgetown with, which includes my wife, who was bright and impressive. But the school has done a remarkable job of recruiting students from all over the world with impressive diversity, impressive backgrounds, and impressive energy and intellect. So what would you do? What would you study? What would you pursue? I think all the same things. I came to Georgetown to study government and to work on Capitol Hill in my spare time. And I did that. And
I love that, and I can't imagine doing something different. Wow. Interesting. I'd be a CIA agent that I wanted to be, but I wasn't able to because I was gay. I would be an admiral at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Something. Military intelligence. Okay. Yeah? Would you be scared if I was an admiral? I would not be scared if you were an admiral, but I don't know. Yeah. Anyway. I think you've been super successful doing what you did and made a great contribution to our country doing what you've done. Thank you.
Well, as have you. As have you, Ron Klink. Thank you. I was so happy to hear Representative Pelosi chime in from the audience there on Marjorie Taylor. She was all weekend. It was funny because Paul is, you know, was a former chairman emeritus of the state.
And so he was sort of enjoying himself. And she kept coming over saying, now you have to get up to speak. And now this person has to get up to speak. And it was really, she was trying to run the place. And I said to her, I said, you're not speaker of the table, Nancy, anymore. And so it was funny. And he's like, relax.
But she really still wants to run everything. And so she is a striver and a runner of things. She's having a good time. She was watching the game on her phone at the same time, the Warriors. And she went to the Warriors game this week and was right in the front row screaming. She's a big sports fan. So it was just very funny. She's having a good time. She's living her best life right now.
I mean, she's been living her best life for a while. Yeah. And it's glad to see her husband doing so well. That whole conversation made me miss Georgetown, which is obviously a very special place. Yes, I think so. I like Georgetown. I didn't. Why? Being a gay person there wasn't very pleasant, I'll be honest with you. I think even when I was there, like even in the late 2000s, it wasn't a good place to...
for that. It's real bad in the 80s, I can tell you that, I'm sure. But, you know, great education, great teachers. I was very lucky to have some amazing teachers and opportunities there. And a great sense of mission. Even hearing the room there,
you know, the level of interest in politics in Ukraine and China. There's a high kind of intellectual interest in the world at Georgetown, which is amazing. Yeah, that's why I go back now, because I really like Georgetown today. I was convinced by the head of it, Jack DeGioia. I said, I don't want to come back. He wanted me to come and speak. And I said, no, I didn't have a good time there. And then he let me talk about it in a speech I gave. And since then, I've been doing a lot of events for them. I really...
I like the people running it now, and I like, you know, the idea of global, the global viewpoint of the school. And you were angling for all kinds of government jobs in that interview. I noticed CIA, admiral, maybe chief of staff. I would have been. That was a different life. That was a different life. Ron, meanwhile, would seem very happy with his choices in life to become White House chief of staff. And he seemed to imply that
President Biden would go high when they went low, in particular, letting the indictment speak to themselves. Do you think that's a smart strategy? No, they're going to go low. Are you kidding? I'm telling you, the get a load of this criminal is coming out of his mouth, something like that. Some version of that is coming out of his mouth.
I mean, Ron is very guarded. Yeah. He's very, like, to the point, when you speak. He's a perfect chief of staff. He's very circumspect. Yes. He's a perfect behind-the-scenes power broker. And he kind of dodged and demurred the question about Vice President Harris saying he wasn't her biggest booster, the president was. And, you know, what did you make of that?
Well, I think he was just, you know, he didn't want to run her down because he is a big fan of hers. He has been. He's been a big supporter. So he didn't want to run her. He's saying, it's not me. It's the president, right, that who likes her. So that brings her up in value. Although when asked about the upper incomers, he didn't put her name in there. He put Gavin Newsom, governor of California, and Gretchen Whitmer, governor of Michigan. So that was the most interesting part to me.
But if Ron were here, he would say, well, she's not an up-and-comer because she's already up. No. He could have said her, but he didn't. He was more forthcoming on the Elon relationship. He said it was rocky. I didn't realize, I mean, obviously the interoperable Tesla chargers is a big thing, but I didn't realize how much Elon was getting dinged for his stance on unions by the White House. Yeah. They hadn't explicitly said it, but it was dead clear that that was the issue. And of course, that really soured him in many ways when I interviewed him about it. He was very angry about that. And the unions have a lot of power with
the White House. Yeah, well, Joe Biden's a union guy. He's a union guy. You talked about Obama being too close to tech. Explain what you mean. He was too close to tech. He embraced them in ways and he never regulated them. He had all kinds of opportunities to do so. Many times, the FTC did very early and they always passed on getting them before they got too big and then they got too big. And you know, this is where we are. It takes a while for these things to run their course, but I thought he was a little too cozy with the tech people.
Anyways, if you guys enjoyed that interview with Ron Klain, there's going to be another live interview taping soon because we're headed to Toronto, Canada. We're big in Canada. Yes, if you want to come see a live interview for the show, join us on Saturday, May 6th, when I'll be interviewing actress, writer, and producer Lilly Singh at the 30th Anniversary Hot Docs Festival in Toronto. No clanking cutlery. You can get 20% off your tickets by using the promo code HD23KARA20.
That is HD23Kara20. Yes. We'll see you in Toronto, maybe. And in the meantime, Kara, before you take that flight, can you read us the credits? Absolutely. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Nishik, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Bertina Chang. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get to be an honorary Hoya if
If not, too bad. We're not going to tell you what that means. But go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
