Jen Psaki on Her New Show and Her Old Boss 53:41

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Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is the New York City Rat Czar. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. You know, fewer rats is the one thing all New Yorkers can get behind. It's not going to happen. It's so smart for our polarizing mayor to appoint our director of road mitigation and that it should be you, Kara Swisher. How wonderful. She doesn't have a lot of rat back.

I don't know. Good luck with that. That's what they were saying in the country. I'm waiting for the Olivia Pope meme where she's like, it's handled. It's handled. The whole thing is like satire. Job description called for stamina and stagecraft, drive determination and killer instinct needed to fight the real enemy. It's just a stunt. But Adams has also received three summons for a rat infestation at a rental property he owns. We should have my own talk about rats. We should. We have so many good jokes, though. The Rat King created the rat sting. Right.

Rats and cockroaches will be here long after all of humanity is gone. Anyways, enough about rats. On to our guest today, Jen Psaki, the host of the new MSNBC show Inside with Jen Psaki. And of course, the former White House press secretary who is famous for her viral clapbacks, including with Fox's Pete Doocy. She's really great. She's been a surprise in lots of ways. Many people, you know, don't like the rondelay between government and going into media and that everybody appearing and getting these big contracts.

But the show has turned out to be a surprise hit. Cable has been suffering and here comes Jen Psaki and makes a hit show on Sunday, of all things. Sunday's at noon. At noon, yeah. And so she's doing really well. It's attracting a million people. It's getting great reviews and people seem to like her. She seems to have worked really well. Sort of, she's made that George Stephanopoulos transition. She has made that transition well. You interviewed her at Code about six months ago when all of this was just starting out. And back then the show was announced, but she was doing the ramp

up. She had to go, you know, basically go on a bunch of other shows, find an EP, etc. And was thinking about this transition at that time. Yeah, she was. And I think she was insecure about it because she hadn't done it. And we met a number of times to talk about it in D.C. But she did all the work. She did all the work. And she's still such an appealing media character. I think it would be hard for her to fail. People like her.

right away. She's got, I don't know what makes someone likable on the air, but she has it, whatever it happens to be. And she's actually created a show that's very pertinent. It isn't, it isn't hair on fire, even though she has red hair. You know, Trump, Trump, Trump. It's very, it's a very smart show.

I think part of what you're talking about, her being likable, is that she's self-aware. And it's like people talk about authenticity, but self-awareness is maybe a more interesting quality. And quickness. Yes. She's very quick, and I think she communicated that well.

did a great job for the Biden administration in doing that, is that she seemed very competent and also funny and also tough. You know, I think she sort of played the role of press secretary rather well. So you had spoken to her and given her some advice. She and I had also spoken about the kind of, she was talking to different EPs at the time and

NBC was having her meet with them. And she talked about like what kind of EP she'd want. And I said, you want an EP who disagrees with you? Yes, you did. Yeah. Yeah. I met him and he's great. And he's terrific. Yeah. He's really smart and young and he think he lets her be her. And that's what's really important. Yeah. A hundred percent. And that constant dialogue is important. People don't understand the relationship between EP and talent, which is like EP can tell talent what to do, but talent can also tell producer to fuck off if, if,

If they don't like it. So it sounds like she's worked out a good solution. And it's a great time to have her on because there's so much to discuss with her, including her new show, how she's thinking about that, but also asking her to put on her old strategy hat and comms hat ahead of a looming important election on everything from Trump to a topic.

that we've wanted to cover for a while, abortion. Yeah, we'll talk to her about that. DeSantis in Florida just signed a six-week abortion ban going the way of Texas. There's all kinds of things going on in the courts around abortion pills and state challenges to the FDA's approval of the drug. So it's a thorny time for an important issue, and it's something that is going to be important in the next elections, as you've seen in Wisconsin,

people are up in arms about this kind of stuff. Very important issue. And I think it's been a winning issue, as you said, for Democrats since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. Although I think...

many people would rather have their rights than a winning wedge issue. Abortion is going to be one of many issues in the election, including inflation, crime and more. But the candidates will matter just as much. Yeah. And one of the things she has to reckon with as a I mean, in a very different way than when she was press secretary, than when she's, say, covering this on MSNBC is, you know, if this becomes a Biden Trump mashup that many expects it to be, there is a real question about

kind of fitness, gerontocracy, right? It's definitely something worth asking Jen about how the Biden administration handles that, especially as we're taping this, just as Dianne Feinstein faced calls from her own party to resign from Senate. And look, neither of these candidates are spring chickens. And I think everybody asked the question, what's going on with Biden right now? He's in Ireland. He refused to give a formal press conference. He took questions from kids at his school and it seemed to tax his memory. You know, it could be Achilles heel for Biden, but of course, Trump has his own

share of cognitive difficulties, despite his perfect person, man, woman, camera test. I mean, it's just, it's old guy versus old guy, no matter how you slice it. And so I think that'll be a big issue for both of them. Obviously, Trump's big issues are that criminal indictments would probably be at the top of the list and continued inability not to

say terrible things. Yeah. And oh yeah, the insurrection. Oh yeah, January 6th. Oh yeah, the insurrection. By the way, I took that person, man, woman, camera test when I had my concussion. It's like the world's easiest test. Oh, is it? Well, good. I'm glad you passed. I didn't pass, Kara. Oh, I'm sorry you didn't pass. Rats, as I say. Rats for you. Rats for me. Anyways, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with the interview.

It is over.

Hey, Jen. Thanks for coming on. Hi. Thanks for having me, Cara. So congratulations on the new MSNBC show. Thank you. I want to get into that in a second, but your Gavin Newsom interview, which was excellent, what was your angle when you were trying to formulate it? Well, we kind of started this journey with a team of producers I work with, with a list of people we'd love to talk to and love to talk to not just over screens, but really go to where they are. My

angle with him and with Governor Whitmer, and we're going to hopefully talk to Governor West more soon, is that I want to go beyond the surface of what they say in a 10-minute interview on a screen on television. And so I want to see them in their environment. I want to better understand what makes them tick and

Beyond just news of the day, which obviously we asked about that too, but why do you care about these issues? What drives you? What mistakes have you made?

things along those lines. I mean, the things that my friends and family members who care about politics but don't consume as much news as you and I do want to know. So one of the things you were also doing is you had a real wind up to this launch. It was six months of appearances on other shows, ideating with your EP, as you talked about. People were saying, Kara, at some point, are you actually going to have a show? Why did you do it like this and what was the thinking behind it? Well,

first, I'm new to this industry. Yes, I've been on television a lot and done a zillion interviews, but it is different. And I wanted time to learn everything from the technical side of reading a teleprompter, which is not as easy as people think it is, by the way. You've got the hands down, by the way.

Well, you know, people tell you when you do media training to like sit on your hands. I've never done media training before, but that's what they tell you, which I just am incapable of that. So they were finally like, fine, just use your hands. And also I was coming into a new place and I wanted the opportunity to spend time with different anchors to really get to know the place, to get to know how everything works and

And, you know, we launched the Sunday show. We're also going to launch a Peacock show, a YouTube show. I have a newsletter. So it was always going to be kind of a buildup of a range of different kinds of content. Now, your premiere of Inside with Jen Psaki, which is on Sunday at the 12 p.m. hour, has been a huge hit. What's been easiest for you and what's been hard?

The easiest thing for me has been having conversations with political people. And, you know, I remember before the show started back in the fall, I went out and followed some canvassers, you know, people who were knocking on doors during the political season. And I think the crew and the producers with me were like,

oh, you're actually pretty comfortable doing this. And it's like, yeah, because this is how I've spent my career, right? I mean, I've spent my career talking to people, knocking on doors, following politicians around, right?

That's been the easiest part to me. The harder part is talking to people remotely, which I know you have to adjust to. I mean, we're talking remotely now. I've obviously done tons of interviews, but I'm a big body language reader, right? And so it is an adjustment that you're talking to somebody remotely

on a screen. You have to figure out when you jump in, when you don't jump in. I don't know if it's a challenge. It's just stuff I had to learn. You know, it's interesting. You didn't say switching from government to media, becoming a media person. Yeah, well, that's been

that's been an adjustment too. I don't mean to undervalue that. I mean, you know, coming into a new big place, that was the biggest challenge. It's a weird thing to say, but I've worked in the White House more than anywhere else in my life. And so even just adjusting to a new group of people and how everybody functioned and worked together, but certainly figuring out how could I take my experience and apply that in an applicable

Well, how much do you think the show is going to trade on that insiderness and DC contacts? A lot, I presume, you know, given the name of the show and you have good access. Yeah.

Well, in part, but I mean, I haven't had anyone. I mean, aside from Eric Holder, the former attorney general, I haven't had anyone on the show yet in the first month who I worked with in a White House. And so. And you did that on purpose? Yeah.

On purpose. And I will at some point because I also think that people care about what government officials and the federal government or maybe people I've worked with before or not have to say. But I did do that on purpose. As I'm working on scripts, I've also learned that I have a hard time reading other people's words.

And so I do, and you work with your team of amazing producers to do this, but that was an adjustment for me as well, or trying to figure out how to do that. But some of it will certainly be leaning into my experience of not just contacts, that's certainly part of it. It is, I think, hopefully helpful to viewers that I can, if something's happening, I can call up somebody in the government and be like, what's the deal with this? Why is this happening? This is my take on it. Am I off? Am I right?

I do think that's relevant to viewers or people want to know that. Sometimes I don't even need to do that because I know what the thinking is because I've lived there and sat there, but I also think it's not a show that's just going to be an

And there's evidence to date of this, of just people that I've worked with and know in Washington, because that would be kind of boring. Yeah, it could be. One of the things that was interesting when you were interviewed by Ben Smith the other day, he asked you if you thought you were a journalist and you said yes. What does that mean to you? Because I was sort of, huh.

Interesting. Tell me what you meant by that. Well, I mean, first of all, I couldn't have done the jobs I've done in the State Department, the White House, if I didn't obviously respect and value journalists and journalism. But not just that, if I hadn't seen and understood the evolution and the expansion of the ecosystem of journalism, I mean, over the last 10, 20 years. So to me, and I'm a huge consumer of news, obviously, including to this day and have been through my career.

there's a huge space and place and there always will be and should be for, um, wire reporters for every time Ken Delaney and, and Courtney QB are on TV. I'm like, what are they saying? I know they're going to tell me something new that is like straight news reporting, hugely valuable. I also am a huge consumer of, um,

and content and what I would call informed journalism in a different way of people who do share opinion, right? I mean, I listened to your show. You are a journal, to me, you may not think this, but also you share what you think about Elon Musk. And I want to know that. So no one is asking me here, nor would anyone expect me to be a,

wire reporter, right? Or somebody who is just saying on one hand this, on the other hand that. But I do think there's a huge ecosystem, including even at NBC, and that's really what I mean. Yeah, you know, George Stephanopoulos is the closest comparison for you. And he certainly didn't start off as a journalist, but I would think many people would think he's done some journalistic and behaved like a journalist. I mean, I respect him enormously. I watched his masterclass, you know, all the things.

is that he also is somebody who... Wait, his actual masterclass on Masterclass? Yeah, I did. And it was really good. Not to be totally nerdy, but I did watch it. But the thing about George Stephanopoulos is that he...

In addition, obviously, he was in a White House. For the two presidents I worked for, they both always were open to and interested in doing an interview with him because they found him to be calm and informed. He also always made news. Always. Right.

But I also think, I don't know if he would say this, but he made this transition at a different time when there wasn't, he was obviously very well known, but there wasn't like Twitter, trolls on Twitter, people who hated you or they liked you.

And it would be harder for me, if not impossible, and I don't want to do this, to mute what I've done in my career to date and try to be neutral. Right. Most people on Twitter seem to like you. But I have a question. You need to follow more Russian trolls, but go ahead. Russian trolls. Okay, I'll do that. Oh, you're a plant? What is the worst thing? Oh.

I'm a plant. What else? I mean, they really went after me back in the day. Putin actually said, this was like two years ago, he said that I was well-educated and good-looking or something like that, but ill-informed, confused, confused. Yeah.

Which is like the most sexist trope of all the things. So, you know, who knows? That's a shock. But I have a question. I asked Simone Sanders, can you cover this administration critically? And how do you ensure you're not a press arm of the White House? That must have been of great concern to you. Yes. And actually, I've thought about that extensively.

exact question a lot. I mean, how do I answer these questions in a way, even when I'm appearing on other people's shows where I'm not speaking on behalf of the White House, right? I mean, one of the things that I try to do is to say, I have reached out to my former colleagues to kind of give a point of separation and this is what they say, or they're even tight-lipped with me, with me, even me about this, which is like, when he's going to announce, I don't know, you know? Um,

But at the same time, what I try to do is kind of provide information in the way that I would if I were working internally. Meaning like, here's what I would tell the president if I were sitting there. Here's what I would convey if I were in his office. Now, you don't know the totality of everything, so sometimes it's hard to do that. But I try to do that too. I have been critical at times.

I also don't want to be gratuitously critical just to be critical to prove myself. So that honestly, Cara, is something I think about, you know, every day. Right, because you have to, because you also don't want to be the...

the voice of the administration that wants to get something on MSNBC, for example. No, I do not. And I try hard not to be. And, you know, you're judged by what you do. So I don't know how people evaluate that to date, but I do think about that a lot. Hakeem Jeffries was your first guest. You spoke with New York City Mayor Eric Adams and Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer in your first episode. Those are all Democrats. Do you think about putting more Republicans on? Yes, I'm all for it. Governors, members of Congress,

Okay. What's the problem? There's not a problem. I mean, people have to agree to come on the show, of course, but we have had conversations with a number of Republicans. I do want to have Republicans on the show. Um, you know, they have to agree and feel comfortable coming on the show. And I, I also understand that too. And you have to kind of prove that you're going to have a real valid conversation. You're going to ask them tough questions as you would ask others, but you're also going to hear them out. Um,

I've only had four shows, so I don't know that we're like a full totality yet. But I do and I will and would like to have Republicans on. All right. But four shows and no Republicans. That's true. I will tell you we have had discussions with a number. Who would be your ideal? Who would be your ideal? My ideal Republican? Yeah. Who would you like to have? I'd love to have Mitt Romney on.

I'd love to have Mike McCaul, the chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee. I'd love to have, I mean, listen, if Kevin McCarthy wants to come on the show, I have a lot of questions for him, but I would love to have him. I'd love to have a range. I don't, Kevin McCarthy, I guess, may be on the border of this. I don't want to be, although I'm not really afraid of being a forum for propaganda because

Because I'm going to call that out, right? But I know there's certain people who are not going to come on the show and that's fine in all likelihood. But I do think a healthy part of not just democracy, but frankly, not to be old school about government is having disagreements, right? And having discussions and trying to understand why the other person believes how they believe. May I throw one out? I'm not going to say Marjorie Taylor Greene because I think that's a waste of your time. Yeah, no. Jim Jordan.

I'd have Jim Jordan on the show. I also have called him out for the fact that he hasn't exactly had a lot of success in his pursuit of weaponization of the government subcommittee, crazily named. I don't know if you're Jim Jordan's press people, why you would come on my show, but you're... So you're also thinking like a press person of like, why do it, right? Because you know. Well, I do think about that. And I think a lot about, I mean, it's interesting from having been here for seven months, eight months. How long have I been here? About that length.

that I do think that there's like similar advice I would give to press people as I would give to people who are

trying to get press people to talk to them, which is like, you've got to come to it having put some thought into it. Like you've read about the person, you know what you want to talk to them about and vice versa. And so, yeah, I do think about it that way. Come on, Jim. Come on. Let's see. All right. So let's get to the business side of news. Viewership had fallen at all the cable networks, MSNBC, CNN, Fox.

What do you think has been driving that? Because as someone who was on the other side of it, you're all over cable all the time. So you're aware of the relentlessness of it. So what do you think is driving what's happening besides the Trump bump is a big part of it because he's endlessly viewable? Yeah. And I, you know more than I will ever know about media consumption, Cara. But so this is just like my consumer perspective.

Take is obviously people are consuming information and content in a way different way than they were five, 10, 20 years ago. Right. And, you know, in my first conversations with Rashida and Cesar. This is Rashida Jones. Yes. And Cesar Conde about.

you know, the possibility of coming here, what was very much on their mind was how we can make this kind of like a multimedia engagement, right? Because there's so many ranges of platforms that we can engage in. So it's not just...

you do your Sunday show and content can be good content, but you also have to meet people when government used to say, meet people where they are. It's an overused phrase, but it's applicable anywhere. So it's like, how can we do interviews that are just for, um,

Instagram? What are we doing on the newsletter that's interesting? How do we push out content in different ways? This is not something I am an expert on, but I have worked in this world in a while. So actually a lot of my experience from my past job and trying to figure that out has been part of the conversation here too. How did you think of in your past job of cable and how does it inform how you're doing that now?

You know, I think, one, there's a recognition. First of all, President Biden watches a range of – not Trump-like, but he definitely watches Morning Joe in the morning. I know that because of the thing I would watch it, and there are things that he would raise, and he would act like he hadn't watched it, but he'd seen it there clearly, right? So, you know, and so do senators and other people. So I say that because –

I also think there's a who's the audience of this and what are you engaging people about and for. So that's how we used to think about it in some ways. You know, I also think that there are, at a range of primetime shows, not just on MSNBC, are kind of an opportunity to have longer, different conversations sometimes. Not every day, not the day of the Trump arraignment. That's what everybody was covering everywhere in the world. But-

Like, could we have our EPA administrator have a 10 or 15 minute conversation with Lawrence O'Donnell? Yeah, you could. And I don't mean just cable, also network television too. And thinking about what are the multiple bites of the apple you were getting? So now that I'm on this side, when I talk to people, I would say, we want to spend two hours with you in the afternoon. We're going to push out stuff on social. We're going to give clips

to other shows. We're also going to do the thing on Sunday because I know that from the other side. You want multiple bites of the apple to get your content out there. When we spoke at Code, you said we're still in the age of Trump and that both sides of them, that characterizes it. Do you have to be all Trump all the time or where do you think we are? Are we still in this age of Trump? As you said, this was just last year. Yeah. I think we are still in the age because he is...

the currently the front runner and to be the Republican nominee. Yes, he's a former president and has one indictment, could face more. That is all a relevant story, right? I mean, you can hate him. It's all still relevant and people need to understand what it is. I would say for me, I

It's like when things are happening, it's like, do we have to do more? You know, do we? No, we haven't actually on any of the shows we've done. I would say the week of the Trump arraignment, maybe the week before we did a fair amount. But otherwise, we we've done some and we've done 30 to 50 percent, maybe. Would you like to interview Donald Trump? Sure. Would anyone not? What would be your first question, Jen?

Oh my God. I don't know. Kara, I got to think about that. What would your first question be? Do you want to interview Donald Trump? Sure. Yeah. Does anybody not? Yeah. I'd ask him what happened to him as a kid. What happened to you as a kid? Like what happened here? Yeah. What happened? Yeah. That's a good question. That could unload a lot. It would be like a therapy session. Except he's a narcissist. He probably doesn't have any reflective capabilities. That may be true. Yeah. It would be hard. Do you have any questions for him?

I mean, why do you want to run for president again? Like, what are you going to do differently? Is it going to be the same? See?

Who are you going to fire? Who are you going to bring with you? I mean, there's tons of things that could be so telling that are about how he thinks about things, which to me is are the more interesting questions sometimes. Yeah. Oh, well, this perfectly gets into us about where we are now politically. We're going to move on to that. You've been out of government for almost a year. What do you think the messaging right now? What are they getting right and wrong from your perspective in the White House? Yeah. What's important for the whole administration to get out?

From what I see, you know, because I get out in the room, what I think they're getting right is actually being patient about not announcing a run yet. And they have the ability to do that because there isn't a primary at this point in time. But their objective to kind of run...

President Biden as competence versus chaos is playing out on its own, right? It's actually better for him not to be a political candidate and just be like meeting with foreign leaders and announcing stuff and traveling around the country. I think they're getting that right. What do I think they're not...

You know, there's always a conversation when I was there, which was almost a year ago, about how to get the president out into a way where people can kind of see who he really is, which is a very backseat quarterback thing to say. But, I mean, the magic of him is not...

necessarily his like fancy speech giving. I mean, he would say this too. It's like, how do you get him out with like people, kids on a rope line, getting ice cream with people, you

It's not as easy to do, but I think more of that is probably better. Right. Because he loves to do that too. He loves a rope line. He loves people. I mean, it's like exhausting, but he's an extrovert on the extrovert scale. It's hard to do, but that's something that was a constant discussion when I was there. And I assume it still is. And you just have to figure out and try some things on how to do it. Yeah. And he does better when he's like saying things like, get a load of this guy.

Get a load of this guy, that kind of stuff. It's actually quite genuine, even though it seems fake. His big pull in 2020 is that he could beat Trump. And a big piece of the agenda starting in 2021 was to take the temperature down after four years of Trump. I think he did that, but the temperature seems to be rising again. Can he keep it cool?

I don't know if they can, but they're trying to keep it cool by not having him weigh in on the legal foray. Right now, they also are doing that for a range of strategic reasons, like not seeming political and because that actually pre-Turmp was what every White House Republican or Democrat always did.

I think what's going to be hard is if Trump is facing multiple other indictments, we don't know what's going to happen. The legal scenario around him and all the baggage is going to be hanging out there, right? Right. So how do they talk about that? I'm certain they're thinking about this. Is it values? Is it chaos versus competence? Is it, I don't know. Some of that will be interesting to see how Republicans in the

primary do that? And we don't know that yet, right? Is at some point Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley or somebody going to be like, this guy's got a lot of baggage. They haven't yet. So some of that may be a tell if any of that works, but that's going to be- Well, it might work for him better than it would work for them because they would get hurt in the primary. But even if one of them tries it because they're not making headway, it will be interesting just to see how people responded

that. So I don't know. I don't know that that's something they need to decide today, but in a year, they'll have to decide. Right, right. How do they talk about it? But criminal would be among the many. Is he a criminal? Indicted, indicted, indicted. Yeah. Well, you know, and Biden has said he's unfit. That's why I ran against him before. And I'm sure that's where the space will be in now. But again, if there's more indictments, if this is

continues, it becomes, you got to find a way, especially January 6th, you know? Is the idea of you can't take this guy again, is that a good thing to bring up? With Trump? Yeah, with Trump. I think the risk, you know, when during the transition, um,

I don't know that there's an appetite for transition stories out there, but I know a lot about transitions. But one of the things Obama used to say, and I think he said publicly too, is like one term is one thing, two terms is another, right? And I think there is something, and I don't know how exactly they do this or Democrats do this, something in the risks of an untethered Trump

that is worse than one term when he's running for re-election. So that would be your strategy. If you thought he was crazy before... That's part of it. Like, he has no more you-know-what's to give. Like, what do you think that is going to mean? And I think that is...

probably for Democrats has to be a part of it. So as to Biden, there's a lot of speculation, of course, about his age and capacity and big issues on the line. How do you address that? Now, Trump, let's be clear, isn't a spring chicken either. No, 77, 76 years young. Yeah. And also, you know, just recently with Senator Feinstein and calls for her to resign. How do you address that? And can he keep that together? Now, he looks very fit to me. You know,

You know, they're aware, and it was the case when I was there, too, that one of the biggest challenges when, you know, when you're in the White House, you get kind of weekly polling updates or weekly, you know, the words that are popping, you know. And they know that one of the critiques that has been pushed by the right wing is also—he is the oldest president also—

is a challenge. And that is one of the reasons that having him out there and active and engaged is so important. I mean, one of the interesting things about his trip to Ukraine, which he'd wanted to do since I was there, is that one of the takeaways in terms of analysis was like, wow, he just like went on a train for 11 hours, right? And went to a war zone. It's like, okay, maybe he is up to it. So I'm not saying he's got to go to Ukraine, but he's just got to show the public that

that he's very much physically up to it. What would be like a bungee jumping? What would be... Go on a... I don't know. There's always like people throw things out there from ivory towers and I don't want to be one of those people, but like... Like throw one out. Yeah. Well, you do like a week-long bust

tour. You like go, you know, you go like play sports with kids at 10 p.m. I mean, there's all sorts of things you can do. And they know this is the visuals of all of this. The visuals of a presidential campaign are so important and vital. And it's figuring out how to project that vitality. But they know this is like the number one thing and it has been. We'll be back in a minute.

All right, I'm going to get to some issues and let's talk about them and how you think about them, both for your show and in general. Abortion, ever since jobs, abortion has helped voter turnout and delivered victories for Democrats in the midterms and earlier this month in the Wisconsin judicial election. Can Democrats keep this momentum? I don't know. And here's the challenge is,

you know, the recent Mipha-Pristone ruling, right, is huge. I mean, more than 50% of medical abortions are with Mipha-Pristone. Do people understand that? Do they digest it? I don't know. It is not as straightforward as the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, right? Right. So the challenge, I think, for Democrats is going to be, and for pro-choice anyones, is going to be, how do you...

engage people in like the fear of what could happen. I mean, what any expert will tell you, and many I've spoken to, that the goal here is to ban birth control, right? That is what the objective is. So maybe that should be the goal is to ban birth control. This is a step to that.

You know, because right now it's confusing. Like, what are the laws in my state versus other states? I remember hearing around the midterms, some Democrats in New York and maybe even California, I'm not sure, saying like, it's legal here. Abortion is never not going to be legal here. Right. And so then you kind of feel like, oh, well,

be fine. And like, it's really not going to be fine if this Texas judge can do this. But you think this is important to communicate because in his State of the Union, he did a rope-a-dope with the Republicans on Medicare and Social Security, but barely mentioned abortion. Is that something that has to be mentioned on the national level more? Yes. And it

It didn't feel like a lot of a mention, but if you look to the past year, it was way more than the year prior. But I think that it has to be and should be and will be. I will honestly... But when the dubs, when the story leaked, I think I was still at the White House. I actually was skeptical that it would be as much of a motivator as it was. I mean, I was...

like kind of surprised that it actually was in the midterms and continues to be. So I think it's just about translating it and making it feel real to people and helping them understand how it is actually going to impact their lives and their children's lives and their grandchildren's lives. I mean, that's an important part of it as well.

All right, gun control. The issue comes up in a lot of interviews on your show so far. You had Florida Congressman Maxwell Frost, the youngest member of the House, Justin J. Pearson, who was expelled and then reinstated in the Tennessee House of Representatives after he protested a recent school shooting, Governor Newsom. A turning point? Maybe. I mean, it is probably the issue that makes me personally feel the most rage. And so we will be covering it a ton on the show, including and also abortion for different reasons. But yeah,

I think what's been interesting about the past few weeks to me is if you look at Tennessee, the days before the shooting or right around the shooting, I don't want to misspeak here, the Tennessee legislature was rolling back gun safety legislation. Mm-hmm.

This week, the governor of Tennessee signed into law background checks, right? Not because he was campaigning on this or because this was a central part of his agenda, but because he felt the push from the people in Tennessee to do it. You know, in Michigan...

Whitmer, Governor Whitmer, just signed into law a package of gun legislation. They had fairly weak gun laws there. It doesn't include the assault weapons ban, but it includes some other things. There's been a movement in Colorado. So there's state movement on different things. Where there is a concerning holdup to me is the assault weapons ban. And that's not just Republicans. I hear Democrats who

don't want to be in the fray of the NRA, say things like, well, we can't have an assault weapons ban because the Second Amendment guarantees that. And it's like the Second Amendment does not guarantee you to have a weapon of war. But that is harder politically. You see that in the polling, too.

So I don't know. I mean, Shannon Watts, who I respect a lot, recently said that she thinks it's a turning point. David Haga said he thinks it's a turning point. How that manifests itself and what it means, I'm not sure yet. But I think at the state level. Last one, the Biden administration told TikTok that its owners had to sell the app or face a ban. That happened last month. The Chinese government said it would firmly oppose a sale and suggested it would shake investor confidence.

in the U.S. When he testified in front of Congress last month, TikTok's CEO, Shou-Chu, said the sale wouldn't necessarily restrict or change the flow of data. And you just interviewed New York Congressman Jamel Bowman for an episode on your Sunday show. He opposes a ban. Let's play that clip, which your team gave us early access to.

Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen any evidence of Chinese espionage or Chinese... The intel or anything. Yeah, I haven't seen... There hasn't been like a top secret congressional briefing on what China is doing with TikTok. We've never had that. So why are we talking about banning it if you can't even point to...

specifically what they are doing to steal our data or spy on us or use some type of Chinese mind control. Like again, this is like fear mongering from the Republican Party, similar to what they do with the border and the debt limit and other things. Like this is not, I haven't seen any evidence of it. At the same time, Facebook,

in real time, ignored Russian interference in our 2016 elections. Like that happened, that's a fact, that's documented. But we had no conversation about banning Facebook. And again, our data is all over the place. - I would agree with Congressman Bowman. So where do you think this is gonna go?

Well, the CFIUS process, as you know, Cara, works at the speed... This is Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. Yes, and it does move at the speed of a tortoise, as you know. So I don't think this is something that's being determined tomorrow. But it's not just Republican fear-mongering. It's Biden who said ban. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I think that's fair. True. There was actually the majority of people who have spoken about this have said ban. Mm-hmm.

What is also true, and he also said in the interview, which I thought was very candid and honest, which I always love that, is it's a better platform. Yeah. As in he likes to use the platform better and it's easier to reach people. It is a better platform. Yeah. Yeah.

And the part of this that people don't talk about but is a factor is 150 million people use TikTok. Right. In terms of politics, a lot of those people are probably more Democratic-leaning, I would guess. So is this a bad political thing for Biden to do? I think it would have a huge political impact. Now, I don't think that his first choice is to ban TikTok.

because of that. But I think they're in a tricky place where they have to put a warning sign out there and also have to do that in order to help try to figure out some sort of outcome in Congress. But as you know, Kara, if it's sold, then TikTok lives, right? So it's just, I don't know how it will be resolved, but I don't think it's going to be resolved quickly. So I want to finish up with talking about the GOP side, because you're going to be thinking of this since you're going to be bringing on so many Republicans. We've invited

I invited a number of them on. Yeah. Come on down. What's the what is the Achilles heel for Biden of any of these people? Is it Trump or someone else? Hmm. I think that those who suggest that Trump is the easiest and best person for Biden to run against. Mm hmm.

Right.

he still has like this weird evil charisma. So like, I, I don't know that he's necessarily the easiest. I don't think they underestimate Trump. Um, they shouldn't. Um, but yeah,

But, you know, if somehow DeSantis or Nikki Haley or one of them emerged, there's no question just from reading Sarah Huckabee Sanders' strange response to the State of the Union, they would be like leading with their chins on the age thing. And that's not ideal for them either. So I'm not

quite sure. I don't think I've seen enough of the Republican primary or whether another candidate is going to emerge yet. But I would say I don't think anyone should underestimate Trump. And I don't think the people in the White House advising Biden are. So Trump raised millions and millions in 24 hours following his indictment and even more after that. Again, as you're saying, this weird, evil charisma. Do you still expect him to be the 2024 nominee right now?

If it were tomorrow, yeah, of course. If it's in six months, I have no idea. I mean, that's the thing about the electorate. It is kind of, you know, it's still the way the Republican primary is set up still. And I don't know, there was some reporting about a primary versus a caucus and New Hampshire's mad. I don't know. But anyway.

You know, Nikki Haley, she obviously hasn't caught fire yet. I do think you talk to Republican operatives and they say that she's very compelling in a room. She's obviously smart. She's also kind of, I think, muted some of her points of view, like Confederate flag and other things. Um,

Tim Scott. He just announced an exploratory committee. He just announced an exploratory committee. If they can, can any of them strike fire in Iowa or an early state? I haven't seen evidence of it yet, but those things have happened. So I don't know. Could any of them challenge him right now? Could challenge Trump? I mean, I haven't seen evidence of that.

It's very difficult in politics to take out a frontrunner without trying a contrast with the frontrunner. And they all seem to be hesitant in doing that. Right, right. And I know that's not without drawbacks. You try to take out Trump, you're going to enrage a part of your base. But if you are...

I don't know how you move ahead. Because they want the real thing. Yes, exactly. It tastes like chicken kind of thing. When I interviewed on the stage at Code in September, you told me Ron DeSantis is a pretty good communicator because you know what he thinks. He breaks through with clear and simple messaging. He seems to have stumbled since then. Yeah. Well,

I mean, this is the stage of things where it's not just about how you're operating in social media or in like very controlled things in your home state, right? It's like you're now on the national scene. People are asking questions. As they say, they're lifting the hood, they're kicking the tires. And, you know, the thing that's a challenge for him

I think is that he hit such a high height. It's like people were projecting on him what they wanted him to be. And then it's like, is he that thing? Well, he can't possibly be all those things. Um,

So he may have hit his peak. I don't know if he comes back. It's hard to know. And I'm not sure that the spotlight has helped him. Yeah, I think he's charmless. I've always thought he was charmless and short. Charmless and short. We're both short, Kara. We're both short. Neither of us want to be president ever. That's correct. You know, I remember when Obama not kindly said Hillary Clinton was likable enough. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember it. I was like sitting watching it like, oh, God.

No, not that. I think he's not likable enough. There is, there have been these stories, right? Where reporters wisely talk to people who attend closed door fundraisers, right? And the people go in, I'm so excited to see Ron DeSantis. He's the future of our party. He's going to be amazing. He's tough, anti-woke. And they come out and they're like, maybe he was having an off day. And it's like, or maybe that's who he is. I mean, you know, it's kind of like,

So it's like people who like want him to be something that he may not have the capacity to be. Charmless. You can see it from a mile away. All right. My last question, you've been an analyst before. This is the first time you'll be covering a campaign from the host chair. What do you want to bring out in the campaign coverage? The show is called Inside. What does that mean when it comes to a campaign and difficulty of keeping it objective and insider? We did like one special before the State of the Union where I had a bunch of people

campaign, high-level campaign operatives on who had actually been at high levels of presidential campaigns. So to me, inside is like talking to people who have actually run these things and been in the bus, like on the plane. And I want to help people understand like what

what the cycle of this is, what these jobs are, what people do. My dream thing, which I keep pitching to the team and they're like, cool, we'll talk about that. David Plouffe did a version of a podcast on this, but I would like to do it on TV in some capacity where it's like doing a deep dive on each of the swing states, right? The people who know the most about these races, by the way, are the local reporters who have been covering the candidates and covering them. So, you know, I would love to do that on

Georgia, Nevada, Arizona, and that's going inside of like this state that people don't know a lot about and how it's working, what are the different issues. But also helping people understand like how these campaigns work. I mean, I've worked on three presidential campaigns. I've done a lot of traveling. I'm a good packer. So, you know, the meetings is all of those things and also getting to know the candidates too. Do you imagine you'd work on another campaign? Nope. I'm retired.

Retired from politics completely. I'm retired. I'm retired. Now, as I've said, and I'll just repeat it again, if anyone wants to like roll me out when I'm 90 to be the ambassador to like a warm country, I'm not going to say no. But otherwise...

You can come visit me. Otherwise, I have blissfully had the best possible jobs in government, worked on amazing presidential campaigns, and I am... That's enough. Yes. I am retired from that portion of my life. Now you're a TV star. And just like

say Peter Doocy. How does he, is he jealous? We had the whole interview without talking about Peter fucking Doocy. I know. I think I told you this at Code. I did have a good relationship with Peter Doocy. I hate to disappoint, but yeah, I do. I did. Do you miss him? Is he jealous? He must be jealous. I do. I do. You know, I do miss Peter a little bit. You would have those fun back and forth. It is fun. It is fun. I know you talked about Mehdi's interview the other day and Mehdi has this great

book and he's a friend and everything. And Mehdi and I have talked about that feeling you have when like, you know, you have like the receipt with you and you know somebody is going to ask you a question and you're like, ugh.

I'm ready for this. So like, I do miss that, but we'll see. Maybe we'll have the opportunity again. He walked into those with astonishing, you were, it was like Lucy in the football. It was like, don't, don't with the football. Um, but I'm sure he's, he's, has he reached out to you since the show debuted and congratulated on yours? You're more success than him in the television space. I don't know about that, but I, but I, that would be his style. I have not heard from him, but his style would be to reach out, um,

He has not yet. Peter, send some flowers. She's doing pretty good. You don't, okay. Four shows in, Peter. Let's see how the fifth one goes. Then I expect a call from you. There you go. Yeah, all right. Okay, Jen, thank you so much. Thank you, Kara. Great talking to you.

Pete Doocy, send the woman some flowers. Send her flowers. I was nervous to ask her about that because everyone knows that's her. I asked you to start with it, but I appreciate your ending on it. No, I declined to start with it. I just think she can shake that man. That's my feeling. And why ask her about it a hundred times? Come on, it's like asking Sampras about Agassiz. You know, Sampras was even better. It's moving on.

She's moved way past him and she's a much more successful television personality than him by far. I love that you kept asking if he's jealous. I mean, that's what, you're quite jelly. What did you think of her idea for that show? Like a deep dive on states? I thought it was great. I think she's,

substantive and TV isn't. And so that's something I could see every TV producer going, no, that's really hard to do. And it's really confusing. And assuming listeners are stupid, I think her instincts are fantastic. I think there's actually a way to do the show well. You would have to get like the TikTok of election night, that trepidation. You'd have to build it up

you know, 12 months earlier and start talking about it. And like, we all know where Maricopa County is still. Right. I just think stupid leads the way in cable and she's trying to go for something smart. I like Jen. I like that she's out of the president's apparent morning Joe habit. That was funny. I think she was good. I think she talked very clearly about his age issue and it being an issue. Very few people will say that and what needs to be done to combat that, I think is...

I really appreciated what she said about she's being critical, but she doesn't want to be gratuitously critical just to prove herself. That's correct. I think that's the important thing is you could be in a place where you do too much either way. And she seems to be, again, self-aware, authentic to herself. And she also named the things she did wrong, like she has gotten wrong, like underestimating how much abortion would be a driver for the midterms.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Very smart woman and doing very well at this new job of hers. She needs to get some Republicans on. She does because it's kind of ridiculous. Of course, all the Democrats will come on our show because it's good for them. But she really has to show that she has range to bring in all kinds of people. She's got to get them on there. My one piece of advice would be don't have too much of a press person hat on because she was like, well, why would they say yes?

It's like you've got to just ask and ask because, you know, I love to do that, especially with conservatives who don't want to talk to us. 100%. But, you know, once she gets that in, I think she's headed everywhere. She's going to be everywhere. She's going to probably be. She's ubiquitous. Omnigen.

Yeah, she'll probably be the star of the network and that's what they're aiming for. It's clear that's what they're going for with her. Yeah. And it makes sense. Do you think this conversation about her being a journalist, you asking her if she thinks of herself as a journalist, do you think of her as a journalist? I don't, I don't. She answered it at this semaphore thing and she was saying they were trying to get her to walk it back and she wouldn't. You know, no, she doesn't do any reporting. I don't think she calls people. I mean, I guess that's what reporting is if you think about it in a broad sense. There is a class of people like her

that are personalities on TV that are... You wouldn't see this in print, right? You just wouldn't. Yeah. But journalist has evolved to mean something different. Like aren't editors journalists? Aren't video journalists journalists? It's a broad use of the term for someone like her. I mean, I suppose you could turn into one. I think George Stephanopoulos has become a really interesting interviewer. He makes newsmaking interviews all the time. Yeah. So I guess there's a broad sense. He's a news...

I don't want to say nurse personality because that's not very nice. He's a great interviewer and does a great job in interviews. You know, you always say you'd rather have the money that have gone to Columbia Journalism School. And like journalism is one of those things that it's not about the degree. It's about newsroom experience. Yes, exactly. I think just long time basic beat reporting is what I would call a journalist. But that's just my definition. So she can call herself. She can call herself whatever she wants. I think of journalism as like a

craft that's rooted in instinct, ethics, and experience. And I think she also asked great questions like how is Biden going to talk about the Trump indictments? She's got skills. And she has access. And come on, one thing she doesn't know when he's going to announce, she probably should get that scoop. If she doesn't know, I think they probably don't know. Or they aren't telling her. They could want to keep her out too. Who knows? Now that she's on the outside, even though she's on the inside.

Yeah. So like people are porous, even at the White House, especially at the White House. Although I just had Olivia Newsy on Pivot and she said the Biden administration is completely shut down to press in that way. And she goes in every time you put your head out the window, 12 people would would pop out and tell you how Trump was feeling. So she's like she loved that administration for that issue. She goes now they do not do that. They're very disciplined and protective of Trump.

President Biden. So it is a little harder. It's functional. It's called functional.

Functional, it's obviously makes the job of journalists harder. Yeah. But anyways, a story I expect Jen to break when Biden will announce. And then maybe Pete Doocy will finally send her flowers. Maybe, Pete. Come on, Pete. Get on it. All right. Why don't you read us out, Cara? Okay. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Nishik, and Christian Castro-Rossell. Special thanks to Hayley Milliken. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you get to watch the masterclass from George Stephanopoulos. Wow. Okay, sure. If not, you have to watch the one from Kevin McCarthy. Oh my God, does he have one? On what? On what? Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.