How to Make It in Media with Audie Cornish 54:50

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Twitter with 100% fewer paid-for blue checks. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza. The blue check apocalypse is upon us. Oh, please. Whatever. Just in time for April Fool's Day. That is going to go great. They'll probably won't pull it off. They won't...

you know what, they're just so bad in every tweet. Like, he's like Mr. Customer Service of everything. Oh, we're going to take this. You're not going to get in this and this. And oh, but you are. It's just make it stop. I don't want to hear from him anymore. When he was coming out with basically introducing privileges for verified people only, which is what he's doing. If you think that Twitter algo recommendations are privileged,

You tweeted, it's how to lose every bit of your equity in 10 days. Yes, that's right. That's correct. Because it's just stupid. Like William Shatner's like, what the fuck should I pay you? Pay seven. And then he just responds by saying,

pay $7, pay $7, whatever. No, no, I'm not paying $7. Just take it away and leave me alone and stop tweeting at me about stupid rules on Twitter. Can you imagine Steve Jobs calling you every five minutes and discussing a button on the, it's just ridiculous. It's odd to alienate your primary user base. That's for sure. I just am using it for marketing and

Just a tweak, and that's it. That's my whole experience on Twitter. And for marketing your new Vanity Fair profile, Kara Swisher. It was very nice. Thank you, Charlotte Klein. It was a very good piece. It was. It starts with a photo of your cat, lovely. So now we'll be expanded to cat lovers everywhere. We'll join our audience. Mm-hmm.

Ben Smith says that you drink coffee after midnight every night before you go to bed. I do. I did it last night. It was a mistake. Who thinks you go to bed at midnight? I know I don't. It woke me up. It finally affected me. It never usually does, but last night it did. I don't know why. He obviously doesn't get your late-night text messages. That's true. That's true. I'm trying not to do that as much. But yeah, it was nice. It was a very nice piece, and I didn't realize I was fondling a Barbie for the whole interview.

That is a disturbing quote. Yeah, she said you were stroking the hair. Petting her hair. That was very funny. It's your maternal instincts, Kara. That was my favorite line, I guess. I know. I guess. I'm not a Barbie fan. Who knew you were Carrie or Megan? Yeah, exactly. So a big part of that story was you saying, if you're in the media business and you don't understand the business, you're fucked. Yeah, so this is something I've been saying for a long, long time, since way back when, when Walt and I did All Things Deep 22 years ago.

And, you know, the idea that you should step out of line unless you're untalented and then you just stay in line if you're untalented. That's why I step out of line all the time. I was like the idea that you need to know a lot more about the economics. And more reporters are. Jessica Lesson's built a business. It's Casey Newton, one of my tenants. Here's in subsects. One of my tenants. One of my tenants. Acclaimed tech journalist and platformer. You know, but there's a lot of people doing really exciting things. And I think reporters abrogate their responsibility for that.

for business. You know, I know they're doing their work, but they need to understand the economics of it. You've been out in San Francisco also writing your book, and now you have this Vanity Fair profile. So are you thinking a lot about career and legacy? Yeah, I'm writing the part about Steve Jobs' death right now. I'm almost done with the book, actually. But I'm writing the part where I had a stroke, and

and how his death, the death of Nora Ephron too, you know, just it caused us to move again. We were like, life is too short. And so, yeah, it's interesting writing the book, thinking back about those pivot moments that I had in my career, but many people have in their careers. Of course. They come up for everybody. As you think about your career and legacy, what comes to mind? Well, I'm not dead yet. I know you're not, Kara. No. No. But what do you think about? I think about

just keeping liking what I'm doing, right? Liking what I'm doing and if I don't like it to move along. Now you and I share in common the ability to move on, to move on quickly. We move on. But legacy is a big part of our conversation because our guest today is someone you presented one of these legacy awards to, Audie Cornish. Audie is the host of the CNN podcast, The Assignment. Mm-hmm.

And before that, hosted NPR's All Things Considered for like a decade. I love Audie Cornish. I think she's amazing. I love her name, by the way. I think she's the best name of all in all of podcasting. And what deeper reasons do you have to love her beyond her name? Well, she's an amazing journalist. She's so smart. She came on Pivot as a guest host and just so insightful and funny and...

And wise. I don't know what else to say. She's incredibly wise. But also, we had a really good conversation about being a journalist and changing. And I think she's one of the great ones in both podcasting and radio. Whenever I talk to her, I learn something. And I think of something in a different way. And I really appreciate that about her. And she deserves the, what was it? The Vanguard Award. No, I got the Vanguard Award. Hers was the what?

No, she got the Vanguard Award. Vanguard. She got the Vanguard Award. No, did she? Yes. Okay. You didn't get the award, Kara. I got some Vanguard Award from iHeart something. I believe there was a Vanguard Award. Yes, you got the iHeart Vanguard Award, and Audie got the On Air Vanguard Award. I guess we need more nouns in podcasting. Yeah, and it sounds like she's... That's a good name if she was a Marvel hero, and she could be. She'd be an excellent Marvel hero. Audie received the Vanguard Award at On Air Fest, and...

She has many accomplishments. She joined NPR as a reporter in 2005. She cut her teeth covering Hurricane Katrina and the 2008 presidential campaign. She hosted All Things Considered at NPR, becoming kind of a trusted voice to the nation. Won a George Foster Peabody Award for her work. And then in 2020 was recognized by the National Press Foundation with the

Sol Teshov Award for Excellence in Broadcast Journalism. And then last year, she made the interesting decision to move from NPR to CNN Plus. Plus. She did the plus. CNN Plus. You like to make it sound French? Yes. Any way you can make it sound better is good.

Yeah, she did. For her or interesting? No, not at all because she's trying something new and she has a great show on CNN and she's still, you know, a valuable asset to that organization. I think her stuff is great. She's great wherever she goes. They're lucky to have her.

What I really appreciate about her, too, is she kind of tells it like it is. I mean, a lot of people say they tell it like it is, but I think she actually tells it like it is. And she doesn't come from ego. She comes from wanting to understand and genuine curiosity. She does, but she's very kind when she does it, too. I think you can hear that from her. So I was very excited to hear you have this conversation with her about the changes she's had in her career. Mm-hmm.

Let's take a quick break and we'll get back with the interview. And by the way, we taped it a while ago when you had that cold. Yes, they did. It's gone now. Yes, but folks will hear it. So we'll take a quick break and be back with Audie Cornish. Please join me in welcoming this year's recipient of the Audio Vanguard Award, Audie Cornish. Hey!

So what is Vanguard to you? We were talking about this. We were like, what is a Vanguard? I mean, I'm not going to lie. I had to go and look at the other people that you have all bestowed this honor upon. And of course, immediately my imposter syndrome kicks in, right? Oh, no, it's real. Especially, and you all know in here, it's like,

Ira Glass. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're better than him. It's like this Mount Rushmore of people. And I remember turning to Alex, who's here, my friend at CNN, and just being like, did they run out of people? How does it work? But I actually asked Gemma when I came in, and she said that they thought of it in the context of people who their work

helps draw people into the industry. Thinking of it that way, it's like a really nice thing. Yeah, you've reached the inspirational part of your career. We talk a lot about your successes, of which there are many, but is there ever a point where you thought, no, it's not happening? Yeah. And talk about that. Let me see, which one? So many. Like last year, when I thought I'd leave my job and like, you know, march to greatness in a new chapter. You mean CNN Blue? Yeah, it's...

If you use a French accent, it sounds a lot better. Yeah, exactly. I will say that when I first took a job at NPR, I had also applied to a job at WNYC in New York, and I thought I really wanted to live in New York. To this day, I have never lived in New York.

And I'm this little kid from Massachusetts and I really wanted to do it. And I took a job with NPR instead in the South based in Nashville. And I had never really left Massachusetts. And it was one of the hardest years of my life. It just...

Hurricane Katrina had happened and I was covering the aftermath. Every single person I spoke to broke into tears at some point. And it was emotionally taxing. And like I could I think I was just old enough to like sign the car rental agreement myself. And that's where I first learned that I have to figure out how to ask for help.

Because I was in that phase of my career where I felt like if you ask for help, you're admitting that you're not good enough. You're admitting that you can't do this in some way. And I had to really get over that. I had to, like, find a way to say, like, no, no, I need, like...

It's not admitting a failure to say, hey, I'm almost there and there's a few things I need to get there. Can you help me? What was your ask for help? Who did you ask for help? I had been working like six weeks in a row and I was exhausted. I was filing to every show all the time. It was emotionally exhausting. And I found myself like crying in a closet. Oh, so the Holly Hunter thing. Yes. Right. Okay. Broadcast news. Beautiful scene. Yeah.

I identified with that so much. This is a scene, young people, you should see this movie. Yes, this movie's amazing where a character is on the phone, I think. Turns the phone off. Puts the phone down.

And then just starts sobbing. And then stops. And I remember being like, I identify. But that's kind of what news business does to you sometimes, where you have to just like compartmentalize things in a really profound way. And maybe that's changing. You know, I hear people talking about journalism differently and objectivity and empathy. And I do think there's

a generation that's thinking about this with a new approach. But certainly when I was coming up, it's like, you're not the story. Don't get in the way of the story. Keep your tears to yourself. And I think I ended up calling a friend who was in the union and they were like, oh kid, no, like that's, it's not supposed to be like that.

And they helped me, you know, they figured out like getting me off, they changed the policy, the company, you know, it made me sort of supportive of unions and helped me understand what is fair in your work environment, right? Like what is a lot of work, what is too much work.

and being able to articulate the difference. Because you don't want to get off the train, right? Yeah, you don't want, not for a second. I mean, I was terrified. What if they would be like, oh, she can't hang. Get her out of New Orleans. She's done on that story. Biggest story of our time at that time. And so that's one thing about journalism is every story is the biggest story. And so as a result, you're acting like you're an ER doctor and it's not that.

but that sense of like, I have to be there. I have to be there for this story. Oh no, it's profound. You can't miss anything or something like that. And you like news anyway, right? I do. Yeah. So that's what it does. Yeah. It's hard to realize that. I learned that from my grandmother because I would work all the time when I was in my twenties and she wanted, I visited, she was very close. And I was like, I'll get there. I'll get there. I'm going to be late. And she said, you know what? Not educated in any way. And she goes, you know, the graveyards are full of busy people. Right.

And I was like, oh. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And then I got in the car and visit her. You know what else I learned this? When I had my second child, it was March, it was 2020. And obviously during that time, we're all like, oh my God, we're like making our masks. Like people are in the streets protesting George Floyd. And I had friends texting me like, don't you wish you were on the story? You know, don't you wish? And I just, it was the first time in my entire career that I thought there'll be another story. Yeah. Yeah.

It's that simple. And you were actually having a child, so. Yes, I was. That's hard. That's hard, people. Yeah. Do you have to go out on assignment right after you have a child? It is. It is very hard. So you left NPR last year to take the role at CNN Blue. And now you have a podcast there. Yes. Talk about that, the assignment, which builds itself as pulling people out of their echo chambers. Yes.

Talk about first what happened from your perspective there. And do you think audio is a particularly good format for doing that? Because you're trying to bring people people don't know necessarily and introduce them to your audience. One of the fantastic things about the growth of audio as an industry is we've, we're

we're all playing with all these different formats, right? We're all kind of messing around in this area and you have to figure out what your talent is, right? That you bring to it. And for me, I knew that at NPR, the stories I loved the most were the stories where I was talking to someone who was going through a kind of flashpoint of history. So that's

that Hurricane Katrina assignment was fascinating to me. You know, when I was younger, I had been on the sort of legalization of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts, which sort of predated a lot of these Supreme Court rulings. And it was just fascinating to meet someone who was in a maelstrom, right? Who was like in the middle, a regular person all of a sudden was like, am I about to change history? Like this, I'm not, what's happening? Right.

And I felt like I had credibility with the audience in that space. Right. Because there's one of the things that scared me the most about leaving NPR is I remember saying, who needs another interviewer?

Like the world does not need another person with an interview podcast. Yeah. So how did you get over it? I don't care. I don't care. It covers a lot of shit. It does. It does. I aspire to that. And the second part is, yeah, fuck you. Yeah. I think, you know, when you're at NPR, um,

It is kind of a collective and a magazine in the traditional sense. You know what I mean? Like, you don't pick up Time Magazine and go, like, great one, guy. You know, it's like, it's kind of a generic voice. And so I really just believe that about myself, that, like, it didn't matter if I was doing an interview or... So you're more the economist kind of thing. Yeah. Yes, exactly. The economist, totally. And so I had to say to myself, like, okay, I'm just going to take a chance. Like, really...

Maybe no one will listen to this. That's like very possible, as you all know, in an era of 4 point whatever million podcasts on various platforms. So I really took it slow, small bites and just hyper-focused.

And in my mind, just kind of like, okay, what if fresh air was for real people? You know, like what, in an era when we're all getting news from TikTok and learning from each other, what if I applied all those techniques to interview techniques specifically to people? Which if you think about it, you know, it's kind of what this American life was, right? It was like, we're going to do true stories about real people. We're going to apply these news techniques to,

to everyday stories. Right. Well, technically, famous people are real people. Are they, though? Let's talk about that. I think it does something to your brain to have people telling you you're great all the time. Yeah, it's true. And not a good thing. Hello, you're talking to the person who covered Elon Musk. Yep. I'm aware. Thoughts and prayers. I'm aware that if you get licked up and down enough, this is where we end up. I didn't say that part. But that's...

Put that in the edit. No, we're not editing. Are you kidding? Why do you think I left the New York Times? I don't have to edit that shit out. That's true. You know, it's funny. I own it. Like, no, that sounds good character. Good character, good job. People, they...

People ask me why I think I sound different now compared to NPR, and it is. It's like I miss the editing. I like the editing. But it also meant that, like, it's been wild for me to write a sentence, to read a sentence, to say something in an interview and not have someone come back to me after and go, I don't know about that one. You know, like, I don't know if the audience will get, like, what if our audience does X, Y, and Z? Like, there was just a lot of policing involved.

Was it hard to be yourself? You know, Audie was kind enough to come on Pivot when Scott's on one of his many vacations. And... Self-care. He's in Tulum right now. He's a self-care advocate. Self-care. A lot of self-care. Including, you know, chocolate mushrooms. And...

Several people said, I didn't know Audie Cornish was so funny. And so it was fascinating. Are you scared to let that personality out? Is it because of NPR and they train it out of you or something? Oh, no. I mean, sometimes it's not appropriate. It was all things considered. So it was very like, this is happening in Syria. It was just not an environment. Can you do the all things considered voice for a second? What, the voice? Yeah, the voice. I don't think there is a voice. This is Audie Cornish. Yeah.

This is NPR News. Oh, nice.

Sorry, I just needed that. But you know what's funny? I never thought I was the person who had that voice, right? Because I took the job and Robert Siegel was sitting next to me. So, you know, I sit down. Once I even, in the opening, we call this the billboard. You know, so we're from NPR News. This is all things considered. I'm so-and-so. I'm so-and-so. And today, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. And the mic opens up and I go, I'm Melissa Block. Like I said it exactly like she did.

Because I'm a listener too, you know? So it's actually quite strange now for people to talk about NPR voice or whatever and be talking about me. Because I'm like, oh, well, but I'm not that. That was Robert. That was Nina. That was Susan. That's kind of the era I came up. And so it didn't, I still don't think of myself in any way as like a remarkable voice there.

So it's kind of cool to meet people who, yeah. My only NPR impression is, here in the village of Zewantanego, and I'm tinkling. It is that kind of, no, I mean, I don't know if there is so much that anymore, but. All right, but what's the Audie Cornish voice now? Well, oh, now? Yeah. Now it is much. Say hi, it's Audie Cornish. Oh, what do I, I don't know if I say it so much. I say, hi, I'm Audie.

I don't know. It's not a thing. It's not a thing. The voice to me at this point is point of view. Like...

You have a distinct point of view, right? Everybody, and that's why I love your show because I'm like, oh, I'm signing on to spend time with this person, but because they have this like very specific vantage point on tech, business, and culture, and I know they're just going to bring it every time. And even hearing you with Scott, you both have distinct points of view. And I have been and still don't, I'm still figuring out how to have my point of view and feel comfortable

that that is appropriate to share. Because some of it is just, you have this sense of propriety. News people don't do X. News people don't do Y. And I do think there's something to that. You know, like,

It would change if you all of a sudden showed up as a newsreader. Well, now everyone's like, well, I kind of know she's got a point of view on that. Like she's she can't blah, blah, blah. Like in my heart, I still feel like I'm going to end up behind an anchor desk and that I need to be something. Yeah. And well, let me ask about that, because it's kind of a, you know.

CNN, for example, overall is trying to rebrand itself out of the echo chamber. Talking about an echo chamber, right? Right. It's the media echo chambers itself, too. And everyone's sort of expecting... 100%, yeah. And one of the issues I see is that there's all these stories like, oh, cable news is over. I'm like, it's not... Like, when reporters write that, I'm like, you're an idiot. Because it can be creative. Like, what is it next? Yeah.

And so that's how I think of it versus it's over and done. But what does it take for a news brand to redo itself? You can talk about CNN specifically. You have over 70 Republicans apparently on thing, according to your CEO. David Zasloff, congratulations, David. Are these people you know? I don't want to like... Who, David Zasloff? Very well. None of them are my friends. Oh, okay. I'm way lower on the totem pole, so to speak. They think they're my friends, but they're not my friends. Yeah.

I'm friendly to them, but not really. I think that... Not at all, actually. I... I'm trying not to get in trouble. I know you are. I'm trying to get you into trouble. Yes.

Listen, I came from public media, and public media is very, like, TV. Yeah. You know, like, raps. They use that voice exactly. Cool. It is. It's like, ugh. But I wanted to go because the power of TV remains. Yeah. The power of cable news remains. Yeah. You know, the effect...

that cable news networks can have on the national dialogue about any given subject, national or international, is immense. And I think what I wanted to do when I left is I just said to myself, you know, I've been here for a long time.

But what if I could take some of the sensibility that I have, which is a little bit more focused on analysis, slowing things down just a tiny bit and seeing if I can bring that into a new space. And that's why I went. That's why I went to PLUS. I still believe in that experiment. I still, you know, believe in

like being the change you want to see in the world. It's like, I didn't want to be another person on the internet bitching about cable news. It's like, go and try. Is that hard within, you know, the company has struggles. It has debt and everything else. Is that hard to do in such a public way? I mean, I think of it as like, sometimes things can feel chaotic when they're changing and maybe that's okay. But,

It can be scary. It can be hard. But I don't know if I would have even have done as well as I have this last year under the old regime, right? And by that meaning somebody who's like, this is what we do. This is how it sounds. This is what we do at 10. This is what we do at 11. Now everyone's like, I don't know. Let's figure it out together. And I think... So chaos is a good thing. I mean, yeah, like...

I think it's not the worst thing, right? And I do think that TV is going through something. Right. You know, like big personalities are exiting the medium. The ratings for anything that isn't football, not great. You know, live football and live sports were 82 of the top 100 live events last year. You know, it's like,

So they're going through something just the way audio is going through something where you're kind of like, what are we? How does it work? Is it working? How can we make any money? Are young people looking at it? Should we have a TikTok? Like, wow, we're not the only ones having those questions. Don't you think? Like all of these streamers are now like, actually, maybe we should be licensing stuff. Like maybe it's a strategy thing and it's an economics thing and it's way above my pay grade. And I just lie in bed at night and think, thank God. Ah!

It is not my job to figure this out. But you do have to think. I think reporters abrogate their business. I think about business all the time. I think about business, but at that scale, I don't think that's my job. We'll be back in a minute.

So the push for accountability and coverage right now, Fox News, Dominion is a good example of this. Do you think it will make a dent? Because I think the media does try to find itself accountable, but at times people don't think the media is accountable enough. Goodness, Fox News. I interviewed the Dominion CEO way before the suit when this was happening because I was interested in the misinformation portion of it. Yes.

the text and decision making, you sort of see it in a new light. You're sort of, oh my goodness gracious, you're lying. I can't believe it. As soon as a lawsuit comes into play, you're in a different arena. And I think this is a case I wish more people paid attention to because exactly what happened. Like,

documents have to be turned over, like texts have to be turned over, like real, it's out of the realm of you seem bad, you're not good, like kind of media sniping back and forth. And it's now in a court of law where it's like, did you say something untrue?

And can I sue you for it? It can have a real effect in a way that just kind of general pontificating and like essay writing about misinformation or journalism can have. Like this has been a great deal of exposure, right, for people in that realm. And I think that's a good thing. Do you think it has an effect or it hurts the media even more? Oh. You know, the lows are low, low, low. The lows are low. But they've always been low.

I don't know the answer to that. Right. I don't know the answer to that. Do you think it matters? People have a lot of doubts. I do think it matters. I think it would matter. It matters if the collective reporting around it and thinking about it is, is very straightforward, right? Like weaponizing this against that company, I don't think makes a lot of sense because the evidence speaks for itself. And I do think the one thing I hope is that people understand that like kind of cynicism is contagious and,

And as the viewer yourself, I think you have to be kind of, maybe this will make people more aware of how really cynical decisions are made that are designed explicitly to play on your emotions. They're like taking that feeling you have where you're so pissed and they're like kind of weaponizing it against you. And I think having a better understanding of

that kind of thinking and how it works is probably good for all of us. Probably. So is it just because you interview regular people, right? And one of the things that's really important is that that's not of concern. Some of this stuff is not of concern to regular people in ways that I think we don't think about nearly enough.

I remember Spalding Gray, who had a tragic death. He had a show at the Kennedy Center where he brought three people from the audience and interviewed them off... Do you remember that? Yeah, and of course Studs Terkel, and this is part of our tradition. And...

The reason why I'm so obsessed with it is because people bring insights to things that they want everyone else to understand. That need and drive to be understood is universal. And so when you bring people on, they want to be understood. We did this episode of survivors of police brutality, like basically people who had survived violent traffic stops.

And the story was not unarmed black men, but the talk, all of these like things we've sort of fallen back on in the news. It was like, here are two people.

who, who survived an interaction that could have taken their lives. And here's how they feel every time a new video comes into play. That's just a much more specific story that comes rooted in experience, but in the course of telling it delivers information to the listener who might not have thought about things from that position before. That's sort of,

It's hard. I'm still developing what is an assignment story, but that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. So you're hearing from them themselves and you have to elicit that, right? Yeah, but that's where whatever little superpower I have, that's where it comes into play. What do you think that is, your superpower? I think it's... Mine is invisibility. I don't know if you know I can do that. Um...

I think I just know how to make people comfortable and make people feel like themselves. And I do that through a combination of humor and transparency. You know, when we sit down for the assignment interview, we're

I say, hey, listen, this is a conversation, so I want you to ask me questions because I'm sure there are things that the media thinks about your job that aren't right. Or ask each other questions because usually people don't get to sit down and they do it. You know what I mean? Like they totally do it. Or I'll say, you know, I'm going to get things wrong.

So when I get it wrong, tell me I'm wrong. It's like breaking some of the little rules of engagement that people think they have to be in with journalists. Right. Which is to sort of like let them say things and then be defensive. Yeah. It's like, no, we're in this together. And it's definitely made for a different style of conversation. Absolutely, because people do sit back and work. Yeah. Yeah. There are times in the show you'll hear, you're like, where'd Adi go? And I think in the past, in my old job, it would be like, well, you need to come back.

So we need to have a question by you. And in TV, I've learned there's a sense of like, well, we need to cut to you to show you like nodding or whatever. And I'm like, no, why? It's so funny when you said it, because I think there is a performative element to it. Big time. So including regular people with TikTok and everything else,

people become performative in themselves and learned very quickly how to do so. Is that harder? Because everyone's sort of presenting. Well, the way that I solve for that is length of time, right? Like as soon as people feel like they have to deliver a soundbite to you, they start self-editing. Whereas like we'll do the interview for an hour, an hour and 10, sometimes 90 minutes. And, you know, sometimes the first 15 minutes is I can feel them, you know,

Kind of yes, ma'am. Or, you know, like they're just sort of, uh, bound up or they're nervous, uh, or they're doing the nervous laugh or, you know, uh,

it takes or I have to give of myself I have to say I've been through such and such an experience right feels close to yours can you tell me if I'm right yeah and usually there's like a 20 minute chunk in the interview where we all get there and like that's what we use right for the show there is a definite performativeness and also but it's like you have to wear them out yeah in interviews for sure and in general don't I don't recommend that don't do that I don't want everyone saying that like I need to

me to interview people for two hours like that don't be abusive but understand that like you're trying to coax someone out of a space where they feel like they're trying to make you like them

Here's an interesting thing in the news right now, because the idea of what people hear and what content you should provide. The New York Times, of course, is at the center of this, a lot of heat about the Just Asking Questions coverage about trans people, obviously, because they need to write about it every day. The Times News Guild implied that the coverage itself was contributing to a hostile workplace environment. What do you make of that? What can editorial content constitute for

a hostile workplace environment, when you think about that, what's happening there, and then their indignancy over the fact that people have feelings. Yeah, I mean, that's probably generational, right? I mean, certainly, like, as a young black woman, I went through many newsrooms where nobody was like, well, does this seem like we should be talking about it in such a callous and disinterested way? You know what I mean? Like, all kinds of news stories. And I...

took it for granted. So I think I appreciate the questions that are, well, yeah, probably, probably. But I also then became super determined to sit in a chair where I could make decisions. Right. Fair point. Like it just became, that was part of the brass ring grabbing, right? It was like, I can't stop.

Until I can be in a position to do this differently. Right. And I'm still not there yet. But I think that it is good the questions are raised. And I think it's good to be raised from within the newsroom. I think that the New York Times, like any news organization, should be in a posture of, hey, let's review what we're doing and think about this and see if we need to change.

approach it differently. Like that's okay too. I think sometimes people like dig in, you know, cause it's like, well, we don't want to be seen as making the change because we don't want to like, you can make that part of the dialogue as well. Part of the story. And I think sometimes it's just like we get into a defensive crouch as journalists. Yeah. A hundred percent. You interestingly just did an episode on legacy unions, something that's affecting a lot of news organizations. Um,

NPR, Vox, iHeart, or Unionize, Crooked Media and Reveal workers recently voted to unionize. How do you see the rise of producers, workers, journalists changing the news business and podcasting in particular? I think it was a necessary corrective move in midst of explosive growth. So

from the vantage point of being at NPR, we were watching this industry just blow up, right? Like podcasting. And, and I would go and visit some podcast studio and it was very Silicon Valley startup culture. It was very like, we've got beanbag chairs. There's going to be pizza later. We do stories about whatever we want. And we work 10 days a week because like, we just love the mission, you know? And it was kind of like, I, this doesn't seem

Sustainable? Like, you know, like, this doesn't really seem like it's going to work. And NPR has been a union shop, like, forever. So I'm, as I told the story earlier, fully aware of how you can end up in a situation where you are completely taken advantage of because you fundamentally believe in the mission of your work. This is a privilege to be able to do mission-driven work. Mm-hmm.

But if you take like a bunch of nonprofit people and put them in a for-profit situation and use their sense of mission to force them to produce, that's not going to be good. And I don't think it's an accident that all those digital newsrooms are

ended up unionizing or trying to or struggling. It's just as they came of age, that's what was going to happen. Yeah. Now there's been a lot of layoffs too recently. NPR is laying off 10% of its staff. Everyone's making cuts. Do you worry about the future of digital news of podcasting?

Hmm. I think part of the problem is I haven't been able to tease apart what's been going on with us in the media and the broader contraction in what you would call the knowledge economy, right? Like tech companies. And I think we're in the knowledge economy as well. Like we're in that space. And so when these changes happen, like, yeah, of course we get hit.

It is an interesting moment because a lot of folks thought, like, if a billionaire comes and has your news organization, maybe you're safe. Yeah. Because they're going to be this kind of gentle benefactor. Yeah.

And yeah, and narrator, they were not. And I think that is really jarring for people. I do think sometimes there's a tiny bit of naivete from people in our industry, especially audio and podcasting, where they're kind of like,

Why are they having layoffs? We're only a kabillion dollars off from projected targets. You know what I mean? Like, why aren't they keeping my podcast? We haven't sold any ads for it. And it's kind of like, this is not like read the room. This is not the environment we're in right now. We are now, we are having the growing pains of any other industry, which means the time when they hired you a cool, fun producer to make whatever you wanted because they weren't even sure how you made it is like not possible.

Like, it's over. And now there are all these big companies who don't understand that this is, like, labor-intensive work that doesn't really make money are like, oh...

wait, how many shows do we need? What should we make? You know what I mean? Like, should a famous person host this? Would that help? Like part of this is a growing pains for ourselves as an industry. And I think being aware of the business side of our work is important. And I say this as someone who worked in a place that was a nonprofit. You know what I mean? Like I get it, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pretend that we are not

in this whole new industry, not going to be treated like an industry. Yep. A hundred percent. And I think the heavy money to the well-known people was mathematically. I kept calling them. That's even done, right? I used to call, I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Yeah, of course. I have a business we're doing rather well, but. Yeah. And before I left NPR, I spoke to a lot of podcasting and news companies and, um,

There was a constant kind of like, well, here's what we're thinking. It would be like the daily. Except Audi. Yeah, yeah. And I'd be like, okay, that sounds great. Like how many people would be on the staff? And they're like, I don't know, what do you need, like four?

And I'm just like, that show is made with 40 people who work around the clock, you know, and who have an entire newsroom at their disposal and are connected to. There is a real black box element to our work where people don't quite know what it means to make audio. And that is something that is, I don't think any of us have quite figured out like how to solve for that.

Some of us have. Some of us have. Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe you can make the daily. Oh, no. You can make a Karis version of the daily. Why would I make that? No. The article in Times about the podcast industry, the dumb money era is over. Would you agree with that?

I missed out. I wish I got on that dumb money train. I left a little too late for that. But sure. I mean, yeah. I thought that was a wildly broad piece that was not the way I experienced it. Some things work and some things don't. Yes. It's like saying, do restaurants work? That was that article to me. Yeah. Drugstores, are they over? I agree.

We clicked. We clicked. I can't help reading about ourselves. Yeah. So, yeah. You know, when you had Spotify in here, though, and speaking of the dumb money that you wanted to get backed up to your house and dumped upon it. I did. I was like, I have a driveway. That's done, I think. Yeah. But it was dumb when they did it, honestly. At the time, right? Like, even at the time, we were all like, what? Yeah.

You're going to pay who for what? So it was never really sustainable. I met with all of them, too, and I'm like, you can't do that. They're like, but we want to. I'm like, you're stupid. If you give me that money, you're dumb. I think it's not an accident that there are a lot of CEOs, especially in the tech industry, who have apologized in recent months for some of the decisions. There's been some real like, hey, that business plan didn't work out the way I thought it would. You're in a corporate space now.

But, you know, digital news and audio. If you were 20 again and you were leaving UMass, what would you go to at this moment? Law school?

Probably. Really? Why? I mean, it's hard. I don't even know how to explain to people a career path, so to speak, right? Especially if you're not a person who's inclined to self-promotion and the performance of self, right?

which I am not good at performing myself. You actually are, but go ahead. But this is what it's going to be like when we drink later. You know what I mean? Like there's not a other, other version. And yeah,

I'm not good at that. Even now, like the social media aspect of being a knowledge worker, this goes for people who are like, try writing a book right now and selling that. I mean, there's just this onus on you to market the thing. And we all experience this with the podcasting stuff, right? Like,

trying to get yourself out there in a way that's like, hey, look at me, give this a try. And I think that that must be pretty discouraging. Now, the flip side is you have a whole generation that grew up with this, right? Like a kid who grew up with YouTube influencers isn't going to be like, I have to market my podcast. What? Like they assume, right? Like they've seen 10-year-olds doing that. So maybe for them it's fine. But

The paths into media, to me, seem a little rockier and a little more limited, especially with

the closure of so many local news organizations. I just think that's where you cut your teeth. That's where you understand the business. Yeah, and accountability. Because if you work at a local paper, if you work on a local level, people come up to you and they're like, you wrote this about my neighborhood. You wrote, like, you have that dialogue. It's not someone out on the internet somewhere saying something. You need to have those experiences. You need to build a thick skin. You need to understand how to differentiate

your work and how to make your work defensible. Like you have to, every episode of the assignment, even as a one voice show is very seriously fact-checked. And I am very careful to make it kind of airtight, so to speak, you know, that this is not just someone coming up and like saying random stuff and throwing, you know, firebombs. It's like this person speaking from their experience and we've checked everything out.

That's really, really important to me. I don't want anyone to ever say that you manipulated the audience in some way. Right. And I think learning accountability, learning all that stuff, like you need that stuff coming up in the business. And I just feel like it's harder and harder to do. So law school. I know. Wow. That's a great disappointment to hear. Yeah.

Look, for the record, like every immigrant kid, you were supposed to go to law school. Okay? That's how it was supposed to work. And to this day, I think my parents were very like, I don't understand. So, like, you're going to be talking on the radio? Like, how does this work? You know, like, you're in news. Like, they didn't understand what I was doing and why. And now they do, you know, which is pretty great. But...

I don't know. Do you feel that good about the media environment right now? I feel great. Well, why? I just do. We were like the most hated. It's like Congress and then we're down here. I don't care what people think of me. What do I care? Do you feel like you'd feel that way if you were not famous? But I wasn't famous before and I was just as obnoxious, trust me. LAUGHTER

That's fair. That's fair. I think the media is the greatest thing and you can change it anytime. And if you're entrepreneurial, and I don't want to use the term reportrepreneur, which I almost hit someone when they said it, but I do think you have to understand the business. I've always thought about it. Exactly. From when I was very young. And I think if you don't, you're doing yourself a disservice because you're letting other people control your destiny. Yeah.

Um, and so if you control your destiny, it's up to you. But I do, I do, I do meet a lot of you who are in it and not wanting to do the business part of it. And I get it. You know, they want to do their stories they want to do. And like, I think that road gets harder in an environment where it's like, it's just more punishing economically. 100%. Okay. Um, as you know, I'm obsessed with death. Um,

What would they say about Audie Cornish? Vanguard, besides comic Vanguard. Yeah, Audie Cornish, pretty funny after all. You know what? I think we'll end on that.

Reportrepreneur. It's just a bad word. But I think the big theme of that conversation, one of the many themes of that conversation was that to be a media personality, to be a creative, to be a journalist, you have to understand the business side and you can't just divorce it. Yeah. And in fact, it's clear Audie does get the business side, though at some point she said, I'm so glad that's above my pay grade, figuring that out. I think she understands. I mean, look, she wandered right into a disaster at CNN+, as did many people. She's navigated that.

She has navigated it beautifully. But you need to understand where things are going if you want to make the right moves. Sometimes people don't act like there's no business like show business. It's a business. So is journalism. It's a business. And some people think it's shabby to talk about it, but you don't have power unless you understand the economics of it. In my estimation, other people can disagree. I agree with that. Like in producing and filmmaking, I have reps, like everyone has reps. But I like to know the terms of my own deals because I know what's important.

to me and I'm glad I have an MBA because if I have to, I can get involved. I think it's really important. It's a difference between getting to do what you want and not. If you have that power of knowledge of the economics and you can do well and you make money for people, you can ask for a lot more and you should. I think she articulated these elements. She talked about being a brand. She described how the daily is made and she talked about kind of the cozy work environment that this doesn't seem sustainable.

And the naivete around that. So she seemed to really understand the business model as well, Audie did. Yeah. And she's just so, I mean, the crowd loved her. Yeah. And she's, you know, again, such a class act. I don't know how to, I mean, she's excellent. She does amazing work and she's a really nice person.

As she does it. She's just lovely as a person. The crowd did love her, but it was interesting because there has been conversation around like kind of work culture in general. And she was pointing out this idea that work is not going to be as cozy in this economic environment. You got to read the room. Yeah. And you got to work a lot. I mean, she described a newsroom as being an ER doctor, you know, going from place to place to place, which certainly it can feel like.

Which is interesting to hear her articulate and something that kind of deviates from generational conversation around work. Yeah, it's changing. You know, we'll see what happens as there's a contraction now and a lot of layoffs and things like that. It may change. Things change pretty quickly when everything's not all sunshine and flowers. Employees become a lot less powerful. They do. You said you were just as obnoxious before you were famous. I was. Yeah.

Same. Ask my mom. Call my mom. I've talked to your mom. I'm aware of her opinion. Same girl. Do you think it helped you become famous? You're famous for many things, not being obnoxious, but unabashed and clear on what you want. Yes, I do. For me, I've worked it rather well. I've honed it a little bit. I was more snarky. Walt Mossberg, who is my mentor, helped me with that. But

You know, I've honed it over time. Now it's a little funnier. Probably at the time it was irritating. We asked the question, if you could go back to your 20s, what would you do? She said law school. Yeah, she did. That's right. What would you do?

I'd travel more. I should have traveled. I work too quickly. I would have taken some time and not done anything, which is unlike me. So I might have taken a moment. I think law school is a good idea, actually. No, I never went to law school. I think I'll still go to law school. I don't know if I got a fourth degree in me somehow. Thank you. Well, I can hire lawyers. What do you think Audie should do next? Just...

Just what she's doing. She's doing a great job talking to regular people about important issues and they get lost in this world and I'm glad she's doing that. All right. Speaking of what to do next, how about reading the credits? Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Neshek, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Special thanks to the team at the On Air Fest.

Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get your very own podcast. If not, it's a beanbag chair and a 10-day work week for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.