Jamie Lee Curtis and Donna Langley Take Us Inside Hollywood 46:28

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is the Oscars with 100% less slapping. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher. There's 200% more slapping, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Arraza. I do no slapping, but I'm very excited to see who's going to come into the Oscars with a Zempik. Oh, all of them. I keep seeing people, and I'm like, maybe it's Maybelline. Maybe it's a Zempik.

Come on. Like, really? I see a lot of people. It's just pretty obvious. Like, you don't lose weight that quickly without some assistance. Anyways, people are digging the Benioff interview. Yeah, it went very well. It's very polarizing. Some people think he's a master and some people think that he is too interrupty. Eh, whatever.

I think it was fine. I think people read into it what they want to bring to it. I thought it was a great interview. I think he did answer a lot of questions. He did try to get away from a lot of questions, and that's typical. But I think he was there and present, and that's all I require, really. I love the art of it. It's like the master deflector interviewer dynamic. It's an art. Yeah, he tries. It's not that hard to pin him down, but...

You know, he was good. I texted him today about Elon's latest ridiculousness. One day we're going to have an interview where we don't discuss Elon at all. But it's not today because he did come up in today's interview, which was also taped live. Well, he inserts himself into every controversy, so it's hard not to. Okay. Today's interview was also taped live at the Upfront Summit where we were last week. It's with two people. Jamie Lee Curtis, who's nominated for her first Oscar for her work in Everything Everywhere All at Once.

And Donna Langley, who runs Universal's film division. And the two of them, of course, were collaborators on the Halloween reboot, which has led to the genisance. Can I call it that? No, please don't. Gemisance? No, no. Gemisance. I think she's one of these actors who's very popular and has been in very popular movies like True Lies and Free Friday and also has an incredible...

incredible brain and entrepreneurial brain who's done all this other stuff and now has a role that she gets honored for, which probably she'll win the Oscar. And then Donna Langley, who's been had a real run of success at Universal with a lot of the movies they've been doing, not just this, but the Fast and Furious franchise. It didn't start with Donna, but they have a new one coming.

Cocaine bear. And so cocaine bear. Everyone's talking about cocaine bear. Well, it's doing rather well. So there's nothing like a hate watch. Yeah. We got to meet both of these powerhouses backstage. And Jamie was a riot because we're like, oh, you're all of us after that Ariana DeBose. You said that. I said that. I said, you're all of us. For people who do not know, there was a great BAFTA segment by Ariana DeBose where she was like honoring everybody. Angela BAFTA did.

She came out very fiercely defending Ariana DeBose, which I thought was wonderful. And then she went on to tell us she had invented many things, including Instagram. Yeah, and she did. Do you think? Absolutely. 100%. Usually people tell me things and I'm like, that's ridiculous. But she showed me a site that she had on Blogspot called iPhonies. And what she did is she's very interested in photography.

And she has a lot of relations with professional photographers and art. She's very interested. And she had collected them in a spot and they had been posting photos and discussing and commenting on them. And they didn't have the filters, which was a big deal on Instagram. But she certainly was in the same direction. I don't know. By that measure, it's Flickr, Instagram, Instagram.

But anyways. She also has two patents, which I think are brilliant. One is a diaper that has a wipe in it already. It's called Diapen Wipe. She sent me the patent. And then one that also then adds a bag. And anyone who has kids, brilliant. She never productized it, but she's really quite clever. And she writes books and she does all. She contains multitudes, let's just say. She's very much a renaissance woman. Yeah.

You know, Curtis is now at she I think she just over 60 years old is just starting to produce. Yeah, she's been very active in lots of ways. But in this way, she's she's rather than just being the vehicle, she's becoming the driver, which I thought was great.

That's happening all over the workforce. People don't want to stay in the lane. People want to, you know, reap the benefits of their talents and do more. And it's definitely happening in Hollywood where actors are saying, hey, I drive the box office. Yeah, but not everybody can. Let's just say. Yeah, not everyone can. She is uniquely, and I think that's what Langley picked up on. She's a uniquely entrepreneurial person. And so-

not everyone can do that. They can say they're a producer, but I think she really has the... There's Pinos. Pinos. What is that? Producers and name only. That's a good thing. Donna Langley also fresh off a strong opening for Cocaine Bear. Probably that one is not going to be nominated, but she's

She's fantastic and obviously done a great job running the studio. Have you watched a lot of this year's Oscar nominees, by the way? I haven't watched all of them, but I will. I will get to them. I didn't watch Triangle of Sadness. Triangle of Sadness is great. Yeah. And there's, I think there's 10 of them. I've watched, I think, eight of them. But I'm, of course, pulling for Everything Everywhere all at once and also Top Gun. Either one, I'd be very happy if they won. It would be a big coup if Everything Everywhere won because it's such a

It's so wacky and wonderful. It would be a delight. And it would show that the Academy is moving from like La La Land and a lot of the stodgier. But Everything Everywhere is fantastic because, I mean, it's what, sub $14 million budget and then $100 million box office. So it proves a theory that you don't need to have a blockbuster budget to have a blockbuster film. And that is a really romantic contrast.

Who would you like to win? Oh, who would I like? I think that, I think maybe Everything Everywhere, but also it's possible Fablemans because Spielberg. Just not TAR. I still don't get it. I know a lot of people are trying to push it, but...

I just couldn't understand it. It's a film made for you. No, it's not. It's not. I was expecting some nice Cate Blanchett as a lesbian, and I did not get any of that. So anyway. In the film, yes, she is. She's not, really. She just wears a lot of lesbian-looking suits, but otherwise, no. The other one that might win, by the way, is All Quiet on the Western Front. Oh, I have not seen that. Because they love a war film. They love a war film. It looks wonderful.

Well, my money's on everything, everywhere, all at once. Let's take a quick break and we'll be back with our guests, Jamie Lee Curtis and Donna Langley. Well, hi everybody. Thank you for being here. Jamie really wanted to do that stunt, obviously, from True Lies, but we had to stop her from doing it. I'm so glad to talk to you both. I'm very excited.

I think we have to start with you, Jamie. You're up for your... Oh, fuck. What, really? What do you mean, oh, fuck? Listen. Okay. Don't be more difficult than Elon Musk, because I have ways of dealing with that. So you're up for your first Oscar. I am. Your role for Deirdre in Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. Will you win? Yes. No. I'll be honest with you. Okay. I... The whole season of Shiny Things... Yeah. ...is...

has just been a bit of a blur for me because who I am as a human being, I started out in horror films. The idea of going to the Oscars was never going to be. I'm a genre actor. I'm in horror films. I'm in comedies. I've been naked. Sorry. Sorry.

But, you know, and because of that, I just didn't... We've seen you naked. Go ahead. And I sold yogurt that makes you shit for six years. Yes. For money. Yeah. So I could stay home and take care of my kids. So the truth of the matter is I never thought the Oscars were going to be... Right. ...something associated with me. So I have never...

allowed myself even a glimmer of... So you're not even going to say, yes, of course I'm fucking going to win. You're going to obviously win. I really don't think that's going to happen. And here's the only thing I'll say about the Oscars, because it's the only tangible thing, and I'm a tangible gal. Right, okay.

The women who I am in a competition with, which is not my competition, have become friends of mine through this process of Zooms and meetings and going to panels. I actually now know them. Yeah. And they've become human beings.

And kind. And so the truth is, I don't care. Whoever wins it, all of those women are lovely women. They've all worked hard. They have all hustled. They've all had heartbreak. All right. So for me, that's the great takeaway. Can I see your I won face? Well, if you followed me, Cara, on all the social medias that I invented. I have been watching you on the social medias. Then you will have seen the actual shock and like awe.

of the moment that my name was called on Oscar morning when my girlfriend, Deborah Oppenheimer, came over to hold my hand and took a photograph of me without me knowing it that was shocked. All right, we will talk about that because it seems like you're having a blast. You know what? If I'm not having a blast doing this...

then what the fuck am I ever going to have a blast doing? Like, this is the, should be the greatest time of my life, and so far, up until today, it, I'm joking.

No worries. It's been great. All right. So, Donna, your Studio Universal is also nominated, by the way, for a lot of things. Steven Spielberg's biopic, The Fablemen's Tar, with six nominations. And Puss in Boots. Puss in Boots. Sorry, I missed that one. Tar, you need to explain it to me. And I went as a lesbian and still don't understand it. But how important are the Oscars for the studios now, especially when you compete with streamers like Netflix? So, you know,

So there's two ways to look at this whole awards craziness, right? There's the awards themselves and what they mean, and then there's the business of it. The awards themselves and what they mean is meaningful. You know, to be recognized by your industry peers, you know, and to be rewarded and awarded for that is amazing. It's wonderful.

You know, we were all at the Academy lunch the other day, which is this, it's one of the best events of the whole endless awards season where all of the nominees get together and they have lunch and it's very democratic because you don't sit at the table of your movie. You get to sit with all different kinds of people.

you meet people from all over the world who have, you know, they're being recognized for excellence in their field, whether it's visual effects or sound editing or, you know, whatever it is. So you're reminded that this is, you know, we're an industry of craftsmen and artists and creative people. And so I think that's the really amazing part of it. And that's the part of it that sometimes gets lost along the way. Right, because it's become a spectacle, a media marketing spectacle. Right. And, and,

The spectacle is okay if it's in service of the sort of export business, if you will, that Hollywood is and Hollywood movies are. Where it's sort of become less relevant in a way, where it's become less relevant in a number of ways. The shows themselves obviously don't get the viewership that they used to and there's a bunch of reasons why.

But the business of it, it used to be that, you know, you would release kind of Academy movies at the end of the year and then they would be in the movie theaters and then the awards would come out and then people would be driven to go and see them in the movie theaters. Now with collapsed windows, you can see everything at home. It's just become less of a...

a sort of financial business proposition. Right. You know, so that window of, you know, getting nominated to, you know, potentially winning used to be pretty lucrative. It's not anymore. It's not. It's not the thing that makes these movies good people go to them. It's not really why you do it. No, definitely not. Definitely not. So just the lunch, essentially. It's just a lunch. It's great. It's a great lunch. Not particularly good food.

Jamie, I heard you had a thing with Tom Cruise there. Well, by the way, who saved show business? Right. Tom Cruise with Top Gun. I mean, Jerry Bruckheimer. I mean, that movie was such a big success. It really did establish that people will go back to the movies. Yeah. As they did, by the way, with Everything Everywhere All at Once. Yes, yes, they did. I think the best picture of 2022. I mean, I don't know if that was a plug or not, but maybe it was because maybe there's a voter in here. Yeah, okay.

And the voting opened today and we are sitting in the Academy Theater. Okay. All right. And if that isn't a connect the dot, I'm not sure what is. I did run into him. I don't know him. I was walking through. It's too long of a story, but my daughter was in there and I was trying to get to her because they sort of separate you, the nominees to get your picture taken, blah, blah, blah.

And as I was walking through to get to my table, I heard off my left side, hey, Jamie. And I turned around and it was Tom. And we don't know each other, but we know each other because the two of us have been doing this for a very long time in fields that don't get the gold shiny things. We have both been... Hanging from helicopters. Hanging from helicopters, doing stunts, but also doing genre movies and movies that generate a lot of money for...

the economy of the movie business, but they are overlooked. And so there we were, these two veterans, kind of, he grabbed my face, he said, can you believe we're here? And I said, no, I can't. It was beautiful. Did he jump up and down?

Say again? Did he jump up and down? He was enthusiastic. Okay, good. Okay, just wanted... I want to make sure, on brand. So one of the things... You know, Tom Cruise is a huge star. He's done rather well with that movie. Yes. But very few women have been nominated for Best Picture, none for Best Director category. It's kind of hard not to ask, why is that? And should the Academy consider gendered categories for director, for example? Donna, why don't you take that first? You know, I mean, it's... You've got to start from...

The gender disparity is a problem, and it's been a problem for a long time, and there are remedies that have been tried that are clearly not resonating or not working. You know, the thing we have to do is we have to support more women early on in their careers so they can actually get to the point where, you know, they're getting the opportunities, they're getting the foot in the door. You know, it's incredibly difficult for women in particular, studies show, you know, they can get...

the first movie made, but to get from the first to the second is really, really difficult. You know, so I think just as an industry, we've got to continue to do that. In terms of sort of passing up the categories, you know, maybe, maybe that's an answer. You know, I don't know. I think, again, it sort of comes to this thing, people need to be recognized. The criteria of what you're doing

in this whole awards thing is it's got to be the excellence of the work. It has to be, you know, it's got to come down to that. What about dismantling gender divides for actor categories? So it's an interesting question. I'm also the parent of a trans daughter. And I also lean toward when our daughter was looking for secondary school, we looked at a girl's school.

And the studies and all the data shows that young women get very quiet when there are boys around. It's just the male dominance is so powerful that it shuts them down emotionally and intellectually. And, of course, my daughter did not want to go to a single-sex high school. But my husband and I had the conversation about it because I understand that. So that's where I...

Because I'm a transparent, I will always be on the side of inclusivity. But in the criteria of trying to separate genders for categories...

I'm concerned that women will lose out. Lose out, yes. And for me, the gains made by women need to be supported, not diminished. Right. And so that would be my business take on it. But yet as a parent, I want, with all of these questions, it has to be inclusivity first, right?

because excluding is the thing that is so damaging and dangerous. Right, right. So you wouldn't... I don't think they would change it at all, but it's an interesting question. Yeah, I mean, I'm... Acting is acting, right? For instance, the Independent Spirit Awards...

have combined gender categories. It is best performance in a supporting role. And I am up against Ki, Kwong, and many others. Right. Who was amazing in your movie. Who was amazing in the movie and has been a leader in a lot of the...

winnings of the gendered categories. So there's an example of this weekend. We will have an award show where it's an inclusive category. So it makes it more difficult in that regard. Again, I just think the choices for women need to be supported because it's your, to your point about the business of movies and women directors. Well, let's talk about that business because you,

Besides this renaissance in your career that started, it really started with the reboot of the Halloween series in 2018. Maybe you don't agree with me about that. No, of course I do. Talk about that, the idea of doing that, because it's also a business story, because it was such an enormous... Well, it's given me my entire creative life. The woman you see sitting here today who's a boss with a capital B is because Jason Blum...

gave me a deal. He produced all three. He produced all three. And the first one, the 2018 Halloween was such a monster success that when I said to him, well,

I have a movie I'd like to write and direct. I have ideas. Can I have a home to do it in? And it's, you know, they call it a first look deal, which is not a lot of money. It gives you a little bit of housekeeping money. But what you do is you bring them your first look at whatever it is creatively that you're doing. And that has given me a platform, the platform I have never had up until, what was it, five years ago. And that then has launched creativity.

because I've been that ideal girl my whole life. Donna, why do you think it was the right time to revive it? Now, obviously horror films are inexpensive. They also can do incredibly well. It's a really good, if it works, it works beautifully, but why revive it? Talk about your decision-making around that.

Well, I cannot take credit for the decision to revive it. It came to me via our deal with Jason Blum, already packaged with David Gordon Green writing and directing. And so it came to us as a fully-fledged thing that, of course, we said yes to. We didn't hesitate. Yeah.

What we were really excited about, though, is this idea that it was, I'm borrowing this from our head of marketing, Michael Moses, who is, you know, number one fan of this lady right here. They're an incredible partnership as a requel. So it's a sort of a reboot project.

sequel. And really what that means is we were taking the character, this amazing character of Laurie Strode and putting her front and center back into the franchise. Now, obviously she'd been in the franchise in various different incarnations along the way, but this was sort of going back to the kind of the core canon of

of what launched the franchise, the sort of essence of it, if you will. And we got really, really excited about that. Because sometimes reboots don't work, right? No, they don't. Often they don't. And yeah, more times than not, they don't. Because they can feel like a cynical offering to the audience. They can just...

But again, this just felt like there was a purity to the concept and to the idea. And in fact, our first piece of anything on the movie was a picture of Jamie as Laurie, you know, however many years later. And it just blew up. What do you think worked about it in that regard? Is it because she was at the center of it or what the purity, what does that mean in terms of...

Well, I mean, Jamie can probably speak more eloquently about the mythology of the whole series, but it was, I mean, look, the essence of it, it's a revenge story. You're picking up on this kind of cat and mouse between these two characters that if you were fans of that original, you were going to get to see play itself out. So I think for core fans...

But it became more than that. And it really did become something that was, we could never have anticipated this. It wasn't a comeback story because you didn't go anywhere, but it was an emergent story. And we call Jamie a weapon of mass promotion. Yeah.

And really, we just sort of let her go and have this very direct conversation with the audience. You don't even like horror films. I abhor them. By the way, the reason... No, I abhor them and thank them in equal parts. You know what happened? And I'm sure you've seen the meme. And if you haven't seen the meme, you're certainly not techies. Trauma.

You see, it was right when Me Too was happening. And women all over the world were saying, this happened to me, I am taking back the power. And this was a story of Laurie Strode taking back her power. And the confluence of the women's movement, Me Too, the destruction of the men in powerful positions, or the beginning of the destruction,

And a woman over the age of 55 standing up with a rifle saying, you know, me too, motherfucker. And let's go. And that did ignite because the movie was great.

But really, the wave was women taking back the power. And did you feel that way in the first one? I'll tell you why I hate horror movies. It's because of your movie. Sorry. I was dating a guy. And during the movie... I know, exactly. And he had seen the movie before. And so he got up during that one... There's one scene where someone jumps out of somewhere. Oh, a couple. And I know. But the first time... And he grabbed my feet from behind at that moment. And that's when I became a lesbian. But...

It was terrible. But why do you do them? Because you think they are big, they're mythology. I had stopped doing them and, as you know, tried to do other things and certainly did plenty of other things. And it was the last thing I thought I would do when David Gordon Green called me. But then he told me what he was doing. And the truth of the matter is that...

You know, I can say it in here, because I said it for the first time yesterday at Children's Hospital Los Angeles, where I am a big advocate and supporter.

I've made my living on violence and I'm like the least violent person you would ever know. I am the softest person. I am the easiest cry in the room. And I've made my living on violence. And I'm happy I no longer have to make my living on violence. I've done it.

I honored the fans. I honored the genre. I certainly was, it was good business. It was the last thing I thought I would do. We ended up doing three of them. They were wildly successful. And the best part is that that violence has given birth now to

to me having a position of being a boss at 64 years old, which is thrilling. Wow, that's amazing. And also take this motherfucker. Speaking of violence, Universal's movie Cocaine Bear just beat box office expectations. Opening weekend, the trailer going viral probably helped. Critics were less friendly. Some liked it, some liked it, but the Times Review subheading was, the greatest joke of this blood-spattered horror comedy from Elizabeth Banks is that it exists. Ha ha!

I'm all for Kilcaine Bear. We made a big deal of it on our podcast this week. Directed by a woman. Yes, indeed. Correct. Tell us about making it. Look, it's making money. It's making a ton of money. I shouldn't be embarrassed. You know, I hope my bosses don't get to hear this. The script came to us by producers Lord and Miller, who are brilliantly funny and inventive and wild. And we knew that they were never going to bring us anything that was, you know,

regular, that it was, you know, that it was always going to be a bit left of center. And the script came across my desk called Cocaine Bear. And, you know, one of our executives walked in and said, you got to read this, go home and read it. I did. And it was right in the middle of COVID. And, you know,

Thinking back to that time, it was when productions were really hard. We were all dealing with COVID protocols. We didn't really know if people were ever going to come back to a movie theater. All we knew is we should make things that we thought could get people's attention. And we thought Cocaine Bear was...

Might get people's attention. And apparently... You know, and as long as we could use the title, which we figured out that we could, I mean, you know, bit of a wing and a prayer in marketing materials. And it was greenlit and a bit of a fever dream, I'm not going to lie. It was definitely like, who knows? Let's just do it. Fuck it. Why not? Nice to know. It's called Cocaine Bear. And then the marketing campaign became very quickly...

It was just about a bear that took cocaine. In fact, if you look at the Super Bowl spot, I think the characters say it five times. But you know, Snakes on a Plane did not work. Huh? No, Snakes on a Plane did not work. But Cocaine Bear did work. And Cocaine Bear did work. It's a bear that takes cocaine. Yeah. So it was less about story. It was not about a mom looking for her kids in the woods. It was about a bear taking cocaine. Okay, good. And marketing. Marketing. And this is where Michael Moses... The reason Michael Moses and I...

Love each other and respect each other is because I understand more than I understand with all due respect to your job. I understand you less than I understand marketing. Marketing, because I'm like, I'm a marketer. I sell yogurt that makes you poop and it was successful. I can do, I can sell things. I assume the sequel is Ketamine Bear, right? We'll be back in a minute.

In 2019, you founded Comet Pictures, a film, TV, and podcast production company with the first deal look. You adapted a book, Paradise, about a California town that was destroyed by a wildfire, which we've all read about.

Lizzie Johnson's book, which there's a story of a bus driver and a school teacher who saved the life of 23 children. They were the lost bus, which was missing for seven hours. They didn't know what happened to them. Right, that's the town actually Trump went to and miscalled it sometimes, I recall. You're directing that film. No, no, I'm not directing that film. No, I'm going to direct the horror, eco-horror film that I wrote called Mother Nature. Oh, she's mad? Oof.

Yeah. Remember that commercial? Remember the don't mess with Mother Nature? No, they don't. No, they don't because they're young and you're in tech. Yeah. Why would you have any reference to something? It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. You don't even know what a quaalude is. Right. But Jamie can help you later. So you want to direct, though. I do. I would like to do it all. Right.

I really am hustling getting stories told because I have a limited time. And I'm not saying that in a morbid way. I'm literally saying it in the actuarial table of my insurance company's way. You know, I know what age my parents died, and I'm 64. And I have a limited amount of time. So the biggest project that I am...

dealing with right now. You also want control, right? You also want to take more control over your process. I want to be able to tell stories and I want to be able to see them from idea to story. And the biggest one was just announced is Scarpetta, which is taking the books by Patricia Cornwell. And Nicole Kidman is going to play Scarpetta and I'm going to play her sister and we're going to make it for Amazon. And that, just that alone...

That was quite a get to get those rights. And that's me just hustling. Patricia Cornwell is a friend of yours, correct? We are friends and I never thought that... She would give you the rights. Well, that was the perfect call with Patricia. Hey, when Blumhouse and I were discussing it, I said, well, let me talk to her. Hey, Patricia, who has the rights? Well, I do. No, no, I know you have the rights, Patricia. I mean, of course you have the rights, but I mean, who owns the rights? I do. I do.

No, I understand. I'm saying who has the option for the rights? No one. And from that moment, it took a year. Wow.

But that's a big one. So what you're doing is a backdrop of shifting power. Donna, for example, you shift from actors, producers, change the business and economics. Actors and their agents are increasingly pushing for upfront payments rather than profit participation. They're not as reliant on the film success to get paid. You talk a little bit about that shift when you're running a movie company because all the economics. Yeah. And it's also against the backdrop of a potential writer's strike about to happen. Yeah.

So, you know, I think it's important to understand that right now, for the first time in the industry that I've, you know, since I've been in it for over 20 years, 25 years, each company does something slightly different. Even the tech companies, the streaming companies, their reason for content is different. They're each different. You know, Apple is selling iPhones, Amazon is all about Prime, and Netflix is, you know, just about the content.

The traditional movie studios like ours, we're doing it slightly, we're each doing it slightly differently. So what's underneath the economics is all of the windowing structure. That's how we make our money. It's all in downstream revenue. So it's less about, I mean, it's a lot about the box office. The box office is actually really important.

But it's all about the ancillary revenue. So those economics for us are what drive all of our decisions in terms of what we spend on content and what we spend on marketing that content. So, you know, I actually think that for our studio, we're not.

too far away from how it's always been done in terms of how we compensate. We are less about, you know, we do a combination of, you know, upfront plus backend or, you know, all of those kinds of things. I mean, those deals, the big lucrative first dollar, you know, everyone's making a dollar the minute the movie opens. Those are a thing of the past. Those kind of went away during the last decade.

uh writer's strike and that which coincided with the economic recession so our economics are very similar um but you know what we tend to do is we made a decision not to go we don't go head to head with the streamers in terms of those big package sales that go out there and they sell for oodles of money we can't come drying up of course and it is drying up but there is a moment in time where we've always been a studio where we've said you know we kind of have to you know we

Our challenges are our opportunities. So we never want to be too reliant on the marketplace, if you will. We develop a lot in-house. We rely on our creative partners to bring us the things that we're going to end up greenlighting and making. Size matters in Hollywood now, too, though. Amazon acquired MGM. There's the Warner Discovery merger. They may merge again. I think they may have to. Getting sold to someone like...

which already owns NBC Universal, Paramount may be sold. How big is enough in the world of Amazons and Netflixes and Apple TV pluses? I spoke to Bob Iger in September. He said, Disney might not be big enough. How do you look at that? And I loved from a talent perspective. And then we just got one more question after that, because we've got a time. Do you want me to go first? Yes, please. I'll go really fast. You know, yes, when you look at the ecosystem, size does matter, but,

We are driven by profitability and it is possible. I can only really speak about Universal at this moment and like the Universal Film Studio. We know how to be profitable. We know how many movies we need to make, what they need to make. We know how to sort of manage our business model, our economics, what kind of movies are going to break out, Cocaine Bear, Halloween, genre movies, big animation movies, Jurassic World. We kind of know how to do almost a

portfolio approach to our slate in order for us to be profitable and for us to be successful. You're not sweating over streaming. We are not sweating over streaming right now. We can't because, you know, I think if we've learned anything in the sort of ups and downs of the last few years with all of this disruption, including the pandemic, is at the end of the day, Jamie said it, it's about storytelling. And I know that sounds almost ridiculous.

you know, a romanticized view, but it's not. It is about partnering with content creators. It is about working with best in class, people who are going to cut through to the audience, people who you guys want to show up to a movie theater or pay money or, or, you know, put any effort into watching or seeing or viewing anything and, you know, making a slate based on those things. And if you lose sight of that,

then you're kind of fucked. Like all in on streaming. All in on streaming, all in on this, all in on that. The one thing I do know that movies matter when they're in a movie theater and they have a big global campaign behind them and they get that big, you know, that's what makes them culturally relevant. That's what makes...

them last and stand the test of time. It's what makes people relevant, who are in them and who have made them. And I think it's what makes an audience kind of excited to engage with them. Although streaming can be exciting. How do you think of it as talent? I think in TV it can happen in streaming. It happens less with movies. Yes.

My answer is Everything Everywhere All at Once, which was made for $12.5 million in 38 days in Simi Valley, California, in the old countrywide savings and loan campus. And that movie...

has made over $100 million in box office because of the content of the creation of these artists. And I'm very happy to say that the Daniels, who are the young filmmakers who made it, have made their home universal because they recognized that's how this works. So how do you think of it? You've got this streaming deal with Amazon. You've got this as a talent person and someone who's now a producer. How do you look at what to pick from?

I just want to get it done. I know it sounds terrible. I've saved money, you guys. I've actually saved the money I've made. I don't,

this isn't about money for me. This is about creativity. It's about seeing something through to the end. It's about having opportunities to be a boss, to be able to tell the kind of stories I want to tell. And that's what I'm going to focus on. And the business part, believe me, my lawyer would not like me to be saying this to you since we're still in negotiations on things. But that's actually how I feel and fuck it.

When is your movie with Tom Cruise? I'm super excited. I told him I'd like to play his mother. I said, Tom, come on. Come on. Me as your mom. Let's go. But he hasn't called. Okay. On that note, Jamie Lee Curtis, Donna. Thank you, Donna. Thank you. Thank you, Cara. Thank you. It's on. It's on.

I didn't know you became a lesbian because a man touched your foot from behind while you were watching Halloween. Is that how it happens? No, but it was Chris Wallace, and I'm going to name him. Oh, Chris Wallace? Chris Wallace? No, not that Chris Wallace. No. Oh, my God, no. That would be a strange relationship. He doesn't seem like a feet grabber, I've got to say. He also was not in my high school. He was a lot older than I am. That would turn you lesbian. No.

No, he just did this. He thought it was hysterical and scared the shit out of me. I don't like horror movies. I just don't like them. Just don't like them. Just won't watch them. I never do. I'll never go. I'll never watch them. I don't like those Purge movies or Saw. Those aren't really horror movies. They're just grotesque. The only one I watched was Get Out, which I thought was terrific. Oh, it was fantastic. That one I did, but usually I avoid them at all costs. He's doing another film, which is going to be great, based on the short story, The Single. Yeah.

One thing that struck me is what Jamie was saying. When you asked her if she was going to win, and she said she would be happy for any of these women to win because they've been spending so much time on Zooms. I just thought, like, dudes do not care if they meet you on Zoom. They're like, I'm going to win.

Yeah, I mean, she's right. All the nominees are fantastic, by the way, and deserve it. But nonetheless, it really is an Angela Bassett versus Jamie Lee Curtis kind of thing, I think. Stephanie Hsu could come from behind. No, not going to happen. Nice to be nominated. In any case, I think that she was being kind. I mean, I would be like, yeah, I want to win. I totally want to kick ass. Oh, we know what you would be like. I'd be like, I deserve the Oscar. Yeah.

Yes. I thought it was great. And I thought, you know, Donna was very deft about how distribution is happening and how you make movies. And she was great. I thought it was great. It was very insightful. She's very kind. She's very funny. And both of them, it was really great. I really enjoyed this interview. I know everyone loved the Benioff one because we whacked each other back and forth. Yeah. There's no whacking here.

No whacking, but very insightful ideas about where Hollywood's going. I like Donna's point. It's possible for women to get one film made, but the drop-off happens from the first to the second. I hadn't really thought about that and how hard it is, therefore, to get into the best director category. The third. The third, the fourth, yeah. I mean, once you probably get to the third, it might be a bit more of a runoff, but... Maybe. There's not that many. I know. So, anyway. Do you agree that movies are only culturally relevant when they're in a cinema? Yeah.

No, I don't. A lot of movies that would have gone in the theater are now on Netflix. There's a couple there I noticed that absolutely would have been in the theaters and are doing rather well on Netflix or whatever streaming service they're on. Though in the pandemic, when Jason Kyler killed the movie theater, so to speak. Movie theaters killed the movie theater. But there weren't that many culturally relevant films during that time. So, no, it was an interesting thought. I disagreed with her. My instinct was to disagree with her. But then I thought, well, maybe...

there is that going to a cinema. I think for big blockbusters like Fast and Furious I'll want to see in the theater Top Gun I saw in the theater but I watched it on the plane several times so it's just whatever the consumer wants. How many times have you watched it? A lot. A lot. I downloaded Plane again and bought it. Oh.

Snakes on a plane, you mean? No, plane. It's a movie. Gerard Butler. It's a huge hit that nobody talks about. Another journeyman actor would love to get on the show. He would be great. And I was watching a plane crash movie on a plane. So someone was like, do you really want to watch it? I go, I really do. Yeah, that's the kind of person you are. Anyways, I love that Donna said that Cocaine Bear was greenlit in a fever dream. And she's right about it getting people's attention. I'm going to go watch it right now. And can you read us out while I do that, Kara? I shall. I shall.

Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Nishik, Christian Castro-Rossell, Rafaela Seward, and Megan Burney, with special thanks to the team at the Upfront Summit. Thank you so much. Our engineers are Fernanda Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get your very own multiverse if you don't have it already.

If not, you get an audit from Deirdre Bobeirdra. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Maybe you'll have won the Oscar by then. Probably.