The Legacy of Steve Jobs 01:13:27

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

We're off today, it being a holiday and all, but we didn't want to leave you empty-handed. So here's one of my favorite conversations I've had all year. It's a discussion about the legacy of Steve Jobs. It was taped at the Code Conference in September with Tim Cook, Johnny Ive, and Lorene Powell Jobs. It's

It's a wide-ranging conversation that covered design ethics and, of course, my favorite topic, death. It was your last conversation of the event. Yes, yes. And you cried. I didn't cry. You cried. I didn't cry. I knew you'd say that. No, I didn't cry. You cried. I became emotional slightly. When they deny before you make the charge, they're usually guilty. And I didn't cry. Oh.

Okay. You guys can listen and find out yourselves. No, you always have to have the last word. I didn't cry. I might have the last word, Cara, but you get the last tear. No, I don't. I didn't cry. We'll hear that tear just bounce off. There's no crying in podcasting, my friend. There's no crying in podcasting.

So this is the last session. I thought it would be a good one to bring in the CEO of the most valuable company in the world and talk about the man who was there at the beginning of it, Steve Jobs, along with many others, of course, including Tim Cook was there very early. But what I wanted to do, he's not the only one we're going to have here, but the key people who are involved in it, the very first person to be interviewed at Code, it was called All Things D, was Steve Jobs.

He really made our conference by coming and actually engaging. Everyone has their versions of Steve Jobs. I have a version, you know, at one point someone said, oh, he's heartless. I said, he was all heart. That's why he was the way he was. It was all passion and everything else. And one of the things I really appreciated with him is he really was the most famous tech person in the world. I think he still almost...

remains that. And he came and engaged with us. We argued, we had lots of different disputes, but he always came and he talked about issues. And one of the things that I thought was very important was that he was incredibly prescient about things that would happen. And so I thought I would get together a group of people around privacy, around care of design, around...

anticipation of consequences. And so I wanted to get the people who knew him. There's lots of people who knew him well. These people really knew him well and were really important to the growth of Apple, to what it is today. And I wanted to get their impressions of what he would have thought about the current moment and where we're going and maybe just have a few stories. And I know Apple had an event today. If you want to ask about the fucking iPhone, I don't care. It's iPhone 14, okay? And it's got...

It's got something dynamic island. I don't know. I'll buy one. It's fine. But I really do want to focus this conversation on Steve Jobs, his legacy, and where we're going, how we can show more care and bring that idea that Steve brought, which is about art and tech coming together. So let's bring out our panel. Good to see you.

So, thank you for flying up. I heard you were busy today. It was a fun day. It was exciting. Yeah, good, good. You'll explain Dynamic Island to me later. I don't understand. It's a great name. It feels like it should be a reality show. Nonetheless, I want to focus on Steve right now. Obviously, these people need no introductions. This is Lorene and Johnny, all well known for...

being such an important part of this journey. So let's talk about the current moment. I would love each of you to reflect on how, you can't guess what he was gonna think or anything else, but what Steve would think of the current moment in your estimation? Again, we don't know, obviously. Tim, why don't we start with you? - The current moment at Apple or the current moment in the world? - In the world, at Apple? - Oh, I think at Apple,

I believe and hope that he would be proud over a day like this, where we bring out a lot of innovations that are very much on the principles that he laid out and articulated so well. I think the greater world, he would be troubled by a lot of things that he sees, the sort of the partisanship and the division in the world.

But I think he would be happy that we're living up to the values that he talked about so much, like privacy, like protecting the environment. These were core to him while we're keeping up innovation and trying to give people something that

enables them to do something they couldn't do otherwise, to give them tools to discover their own self and to change the world in their own way. But I think, you know, so I think it would be mixed. And I hate to project kind of what he would think today. I really don't like to do that. But I think, you know, there are lots of challenges in the world today. - Mm-hmm. Lorene? - Mm?

It's true that that's an impossible hypothetical, but because we knew him so very well for a long time, in many ways, he inhabits each of us. And for me, often the way

I make sense of the world. I have sort of, you know, the resonance of his voice in my head often. He would be very disappointed with the political climate, I would say. Not only the polarization, not only the fact that people are really coming to blows within families and communities in our country, but also just that

He loved it.

He loved our country so much. He loved California so much, but he loved our country. He loved the idea of America. He loved what it allowed the individual and the communities to become. He loved the unfetteredness of it. He loved the personal freedoms and liberties, but also the connectedness and responsibility for each other. It was very important to him

give something back to the human experience. And I think he would not be quiet about the current-- Would he be on Twitter? Would he be on Twitter? No, he wasn't a big fan of social media, mainly because of the business model. But he would not be on Twitter. No, he would be speaking out,

easily and often. Yeah. His emails and letters were like tweets, though. They were short and kind of sweet. I remember when you introduced Ping. Ping? Ping. That was some social network. Yeah. He came out of the room. You know, he comes out after he gives a speech in the room where people are looking at things. And

He came up and he goes, "What do you think?" I said, "I think it sucks." And he goes, "I think so." Right away. And he goes, "I hate social media." Which was interesting. And it wasn't because he wasn't social or anything like that. He just couldn't figure it out. Johnny, what do you think? Not on that particular ping, because it did suck. But go ahead.

It's certainly disappointing. I would actually... I don't know. I could imagine him being sort of mad/furious, but also combined with, you know, that sort of compassion and love for the ideals that Laureen described. I think both of those are fabulous fuels to be effective.

I think he would have bought his curiosity and lack of fear to have ideas. But I think certainly he would have felt that there's an imperative here. But you know, when he used to talk about it's important that you find what it is you love, I used to think that was because it's nice to feel warm in your tummy.

He actually described that as being, you know, because if you're going to do something that's really hard, you need that sort of fuel. And fury and love, I think, are wonderful fuels. And I would expect there would be a mixture of both.

So talk a little bit about one of the things that he did, and it got a lot of, it gets attention now and again, his quotes, and it was at a code conference or an all things e-conference about privacy. That was something he talked about very clearly, plain English and everything else. Where do you think, this is something you've done at Apple a lot. It's been a big core value to the company. It's been good for market. People feel safer on it. It's good for sales. Talk a little bit about the issues around privacy now, how you're looking at it.

You know, Steve really ingrained in the company in the early days the importance of privacy. And it has only grown with every year that has passed since then. He saw in, I think it was at D8 that he spoke about privacy here in 2010, I think it was. And he put it in such eloquent and simple terms. It means asking people's permission, asking them repeatedly.

And it has been at the heart of how we view privacy. And so, you know, we believe that privacy is a fundamental human right. And we see a world where privacy takes a back seat and you have this sort of surveillance

kind of mode everywhere, that this is a world where people begin to do less and think less. They begin to alter their behavior because they know they're being watched. And this is not a world that any of us want to live in. I think he saw that and saw that well, and I --

you know, have every reason to believe that he would have put up good arguments and good fights along the way. Which you have been attempting to do in lots of ways, whether it's around advertising or anything else.

Well, what we felt is that people should own their data and they should make their own decision. And so what we believed is that people should be empowered to be able to make that decision in a really straightforward and simple manner, not buried 95 pages deep in a privacy policy somewhere.

And so that's the way that we've looked at it. And we continue, as each year goes by, to try to give our users, to empower them to make those decisions for themselves. And you see the features that we've rolled out over time that do that. We are not trying to make the decision for them. Well, you have by de facto become, because of this core value of this company started by Steve,

You've become the de facto regulator in that regard because regulators haven't stepped in. We're not trying to be a regulator, Kara. All we're trying to do is give people the ability to make the decision for themselves. Do they want to be tracked?

Is this something that they're, by freely making the decision to do? And so we're presenting them the ability to make that decision. And we just keep trying to do that more and more and more as time goes on.

So, Johnny, we were talking earlier about care when we talked earlier this week about care and design. And that's another thing is a lot of the stuff that's been rolled out that have been privacy violations have been rolled out without care. That's, you know, without I think without consequences, without intentionality or just lack of caring about the consequences. Talk a little bit about the idea of care and design.

I think in, I mean, care is a tough word in some ways to understand. I think it's easier to understand carelessness, which is I see, you know, it being a disregard for people. You know, carelessness to me is just seeing people as a potential revenue stream, not the reason to work immoderately hard to really express your love and appreciation for the rest of the species.

For us in our practice of design, I think care is very often felt and not necessarily seen. And I think, and I know it's something that I think the three of us feel strongly about, that sort of care that is, I mean, Steve talks about, you know, the carpenter, the cabinetmaker that would finish the back of the drawer.

And it's that you're bothered beyond whether something is actually publicly seen. You do it not because there's a, I don't know, an economic interest. You do it because it's the right moral decision. And I think particularly as a designer, I think it's very often...

in the very small, quiet things, like worrying about how you package a cable. You clearly worry about that a lot. I worry about that ever such a lot. And Steve worried about that a lot as well. And I think it's that sort of preoccupation. You know, when you're sat there on a Sunday afternoon worrying about the power cable that's packaged as a ziggy-zag thing and you're going to take that little wire tie-off

When you're sat there on a Sunday afternoon worrying about this isn't really very good, the only reason, I think you're very aware that the reason you are there is because I think our species deserves better. It deserves some thought. And it's a lovely way of, I don't know, I think you feel connected. Right. I remember once Walt came back from visiting him when they made, when Microsoft made their, what was it, the Zoom?

- The Zune. - The Zune. - The Zune. - Yeah. - I have a vague memory of it. - Well, it was a Microsoft version of the iPod really. And apparently, Steve had not seen it and Walt handed it to him and this is what he did. Walt handed it to him and he went like this.

Very dramatic. Very Steve. He goes, I cannot touch that. It's disgusting. Essentially. You know, he was doing it for Walt's benefit. But he was repulsed by the design. He was repulsed by what it was. Whether it worked or not, I don't care. Talk about this, this idea of care around creation. Because you're doing a whole lot of different things now. But the idea of...

that seemed to be something that mattered and some people thought it was niggling details, fastidiousness, whatever it was. How do you look at that? I think that Steve early on in his life developed out a very full aesthetic sense. Certainly before I did. And he noticed details of everything the way that

the floor meets the walls meets the ceilings, the way that the lights are either recessed or not recessed, whether or not the sconce design allows for the kind of illumination that it's meant for, all things like that. He was very, very much aware of both the physical and the natural environment.

He was animated by the natural environment as well. And I think, as I mentioned, he loved California. He really loved California. He loved the natural beauty and the light of it and the sense of openness and possibility. And I think that that allowed him to have a much broader sense of what his life could be as well. I think that...

You know, people made fun of us for years because in our house we couldn't

on a sofa or chairs. So for many, many years, we had neither. But mainly because we really, you know, there were so many details that we had to agree on. Yeah. And we finally did. Yeah. But I think it took about eight years. Oh, wow.

It wasn't just a thing. I don't like couches. Because there's a lot of pictures of them without couches. Yeah, but that was a real thing. So one of the things was the idea of how to wield power, Tam. And under your leadership, since you took over, Apple has become enormous. It was a much smaller company when Steve was running it.

How do you look at that idea? Because, you know, one of the things that Apple's undergoing now, all of tech is going to go to scrutiny around power, about the power that these companies have over people. I'd love you to sort of reflect on the idea of what the concepts were at the beginning, because one of the things Steve did was push against power, that famous ad, obviously. And he talked about it a lot, the idea of power.

You didn't seem to like power, but now this is probably the most powerful company in tech or one of them. You know, we don't think in those terms. That's not how we think. We think about our values.

And we think about using any platform that we might have to expand those values. And so we just talked about privacy, but environment is another one. You know, we touch a lot of companies around the world because we manufacture things. And we know that we have a responsibility to convince those companies to use renewable energy.

and to recycle and to do things that are sustainable. So that's the lens that we look at it through, not the lens of power and wielding it. I mean, in a lot of ways, the company is still run the way Steve set it up. How would you describe that? It's still a functional-based company.

You know, we don't have these mini P&Ls where people fight about what costs are allocated to which P&L and those sorts of things. We have one for the company. And we have someone that owns software and someone that owns hardware and someone that owns technology and someone that owns design. And it's a great partnership and collaboration.

And it was something that he demanded of people, was this idea of collaboration and the idea that small teams could do incredible things together.

And, you know, he ran a meeting every Monday. Johnny will remember this well, at 9 o'clock. And no matter where you were, you were in that meeting at 9 o'clock on Monday. And he would get the top people of the company together, and we'd go through everything in the company that was key. We still run that same meeting on that same day at that same time.

And so a lot of the things that he brought that aren't talked about very much, they live on in terms of the principles and so forth that he utilized. You know, we don't sit around and say, "What would Steve do? He told us not to do that." - Right. - But the reality is that he was the best teacher I've ever had by far.

And those teachings live on. And not just in me, because it's in a whole bunch of people that are there. - So give me a few of those teachings from your perspective. What was the most you think you had? - Well, he was always on that Apple should make the best products, not the most.

Well, yes. And so that looking at things from that lens changes everything. Right. And in reality, and sometimes those two align and the best is the most. But many times it doesn't.

And many times it won't because products become commoditized over time in certain fields like the personal computer business that really happened to. And we've never set a goal to make the most personal computers. We make the Mac and we love what the Mac does and it's the best. So we can be proud that it's the best.

He had a view that he really drilled in me that Apple should own its primary technologies. And that thinking led us to go into the processor business for the Mac. You know, first on the iPhone and then on the -- Right, which means not buy Intel chips or whatever. Right. It did mean that. Because it's a very core technology.

He believed that you should own the customer experience in total, and that the way that a customer felt drove him significantly. He wanted to delight people. You heard on the video, and this happened --

thousands of times where he would get notes from somebody that he doesn't know. And they would talk about using, getting our product and finding out that it did X and Y that they didn't even know that it did. And maybe it was years after they had initially bought the product. And so these are still, you know, deeply embedded into the company. We'll be back in a moment with more from Tim Cook, Sir Johnny Ive, and Lorraine Powell Jobs at Code.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

We're back. Now, more from Code. One of you talked about the Nano. Was it the Nano? That became big, right? He was surprised, correct? Yeah, no, I remember, I know we were chatting about this, but over lunch, I can't remember which generation of the Nano it was, but the...

He was so surprised to be directly touching people. I mean, I was so struck that he'd always assumed vicariously his work, Apple's work, would have enormous influence.

But this was suddenly the volumes of this product, the fact that it was literally directly touching people, thrilled him. Not because of, you know, exactly as Tim described, not because that was a goal, huge volume, but to be so relevant with something that we poured so much care into. So the idea that, but he still liked that it was...

Not just impactful, but good business, presumably. We never talked about the business stuff. Never? Not really. What did you talk about? I told you, like hanking cables. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was, I don't know, we talked about a lot of stuff that was really about how we saw the world.

You know, I thought the way-- actually, it was interesting seeing that clip of, you know, Bill and Steve when Bill said that he was jealous of Steve's taste. And I don't think that meant Bill was jealous of the way Steve chose his sneakers. I think it was that there was something beautiful about the way that Steve thought and about the way he perceived things and the way he saw the world.

And I think there was, you know, Loreen and I were chatting about this

There was such intention in Steve's thinking, wasn't there? You know, there was such rigor. And, you know, I've never met somebody so curious and so inquisitive. You know, his curiosity wasn't, you know, casual or passive. It was ferocious. It was restless, but it was intentional. And... Talk about that. You just worked nodding.

Oh, I was thinking about actually when Steve came back to Apple and Tim would probably know how many product lines there actually were and how many products there were in the 30s or 40s. And so- Too many, in other words, too many product lines. Way too many. So many. And they were, of course, running out of money.

he clarified, went around and talked to everyone and then clarified and justified the product line to be a two by two matrix and narrowed it down to four things. Now, that meant he had to use incredibly disciplined decision making and focus, but he also was very much driven by keeping the company in business.

So he, at that point, he was very concerned about the business and used that very much as a yardstick. And I think that something else that Steve often talked about was the power of saying no. Not no to bad ideas, but no to great ideas. No to ideas that you desperately wish

to follow through on, but they actually don't fit in that discipline. - Everyone was just talking about some of his ideas. He can't do them for various reasons, find the discipline in them. Keep going with that idea, the idea that you just don't do them.

No, no, no. So that speaks to the clarity of his thinking and the crispness of his thinking, as well as his desire to make those four things the best on the planet. Because he often talked about leaving behind a body of work, the way that an artist does. And so he would

When you want to have a body of work, you want it to be great. So talk about that idea of creativity. One of the things you talked about a lot when we talked was about mixing the art and the commerce and the technology, which I think has been lost rather significantly. I'd love it from your perspective, Tim, when you think about what you're making now, do you think...

How hard is it to marry those things without the person who talked about them all the time? I think, you know, Steve's vision for Apple was always to stand at the intersection of the liberal arts and technology. It was to always be there.

And we've always tried to stay in that spot and always think about the humanities, sort of the person behind the product, the person that's using the product, and have the technology kind of recede into the background. And time and time again, he showed that he was doing that. And he would make bold decisions on focus, as witnessed by, I think he even shared on one of these stages,

that he initially was going to work on a tablet when he saw multi-touch and decided, no, this could be a phone. And the phone was more important than the tablet, and so he took what was arguably a great idea and shelved it for years. This was not a, you know, let's delay it a couple weeks or a year or something. This was multiple years. And iPad, as you know, has...

People love the product. - So delaying it to the phone. He did lie about the phone on stage to us, absolutely directly. - Did he? - And then laughed about it the next year. And we go, "Did you lie to this?" He goes, "I did." - I think initially, Steve was very concerned that Apple could not control the product. - Yes, the orifice thing. - In a way that would make it the best product. He was worried that the carriers had

would direct the design of the product. And he was very worried that that would wind up being a product that Apple should not be doing. And so it was not until he saw a way to change that

that he became a huge proponent of Apple and the phone business. He did on stage at Alden Zee, he said, I don't like crawling through orifices, which we were like, lovely. Yeah, I was just wording it a little differently. Yeah, right. Well, he was talking about phone companies. But one of the things that was interesting about it was getting control of that, you know, getting control of whether Bob Iger talked about that, getting control of content, getting control of things that had been in...

in powerful positions that prevented you from making things at that time, as I recall. When you think about that, Johnny, one of the things was design, the freedom of design. How do you look at current design right now of things compared to what you were making? I know you're working on a range of things. You can't talk about everything you're making. But how do you look at what's happened to design?

That's a curious... I mean, I think we're so preoccupied with what we're wrestling with that that's fairly all-consuming. I think the problems, the challenges remain the same. I do think that there are fabulous affordances with interfaces like, for example, multi-touch.

But we do remain physical beings and I do think that there are opportunities and sometimes I think potentially the pendulum may swing a little to have interfaces and products that are more tactile and more engaging physically.

Obviously, the wins are substantial to have the ability to have an interface that is app-specific. But I think there are examples where the interface is being driven inappropriately by something like multi-touch. Like cars. For example. Yeah. What would a car you design look like? You know I can't talk to you about that. LAUGHTER

I could ask the same. What would a car you would design? Oh, yeah, that's a good question for me. I'm not a car person, really. So I love beautiful old ones that are no longer safe to drive. I find most electric cars soulless. I find them soulless. That's why I can't buy one yet. I would say, I know you guys don't love the design of Tesla, but I appreciate its design.

the degree of its safety. It's really quite nice. But I was saying, I would like to come back to your previous question, if I may, Cara, because I think that something that Steve always

took great pride in was being surrounded by artists and poets and musicians. And that has to do with design. So you design who you're with and you find diversity of thought and

And it brings out something different in you. And it's what Tim was talking about, really residing in that intersection of liberal arts or humanities and technology. And I think that Silicon Valley has always been a place where people came with big ideas and wanted to come and do great things.

And I hope that they're still remembering that we actually need some poetry and romance in what comes out of there. And no, I think that it's less, much less than it used to be. I think his understanding and reverence

for the creative process was extraordinary. I mean, I think Tim and I learned so much just going through the process with Steve. But I think the way the process tended to work was there was thinking, which is why being intentional about your thinking, being very self-aware, but from your thinking, ideas emerge.

And I think the one thing that, I mean, Tim and I talked about so much was the nature of ideas. Ideas are fragile. They're not resolved. If they were resolved, there wouldn't be ideas, there'd be products. And one of the things that happens, and I think one of the huge challenges, particularly amongst large groups, is that when you're talking about an idea, often the thing that is easiest to talk about, that is measurable, that's tangible, are the problems. And he was masterful

at helping people, of course, not ignore the problems, but to remain focused upon the promise, the vision of the actual idea. And there was a wonderful reverence, I think, that he had for the creative process. And I think most artists and designers

Even if it's self-preservation, I mean, if you're being expected to produce an idea and you know the ideas don't oblige, you know, you can't predict when you're going to have a good idea, I think you tend to need to focus on process and the discipline of trying to increase the probability of a good idea. We'll be back after another quick break. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify.

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We're back. Now more from my conversation with Tim Cook, Sir Johnny Ive and Lorraine Powell Jobs. As I was thinking about this, one of the things that I have felt over the many years is that, you know, Steve was not an easy subject. He had a lot of edges to him. But

He was it was more around passion and it was more around being difficult for a good reason it first You know, he see sometimes I mean he looks so calm in comparison to today's moguls He's just like he parked his car somewhere weird and that was the biggest controversy of the moment, you know He didn't like tweet penis jokes at the president or something like that So so what he drove his car and I?

I don't care at this point. It seems very benign, all the kind of, some of the stuff he was doing. But one of the things I was thinking is this idea of you were talking about why you're making something to be beautiful for ideas. It's been replaced by a rapaciousness. It just has. It just, there's no beauty in it. It's soulless and it feels, it doesn't feel soaring. How do you think about that, Tim? Like in terms of,

keeping that there because there is the pressure, pressure for earnings, there's a pressure for things. And you and I talked about that in one of our interviews when I, and you don't have to talk about specific people, we were talking about Mark Zuckerberg at that time. And I said, what would you have done? And you said, I wouldn't be in this place in the first place. Broader than that, how did we get in this place in the first place? Because I do think the death of Steve Jobs sort of changed something in the atmosphere and people that rose up

you know, for all his flaws, were not up to his speed. I don't-- Maybe you don't agree with me on that. I think Silicon Valley's not monolithic. No. And so it's not monolithic, and so I think it's hard to paint everything with one roller. Although people revered him more than anybody, as a-- Oh, I revere him. -As you know. -Yeah. And, uh... And so I think he's a measuring stick

that when you compare most people to are always going to fall short of. And that's great. He was a one-in-a-century-plus kind of person, I think, in most every way. And he was also demanding, and he was passionate about his point, and he believed that you get a better answer by debating.

And so a lot of what people might not understand about him was he would debate just to get the subject going, sometimes taking a position that he didn't even believe, and just to get the discussion going because he was so convinced

if you examine this thing from outside and in a deep kind of way, in a very thoughtful kind of way, you would arrive at a better decision. And I think, yes, I think that's something that not just founders, but everyone can learn from. And I think getting --

having the learnings from him moving forward is something that is very important. Because I do think that he was a one in a gazillion kind of thing. And it's certainly, from my point of view, it changed the trajectory of my life. And...

I can't imagine learning from anyone else the amount that I learned from him. You know, it was just -- and it was a daily kind of thing, you know. He demanded innovation everywhere. Obviously, he demanded in products, but he demanded that marketing be innovative. He demanded that operations be innovative. He wanted every single thing in the company to be the best.

and he had the examination ability with his thinking to go very deep

on almost everything in the company. It was a very unusual skill set that he had. And so I think we can all learn from that in our own lives, both personal lives and in business. Well, the debating thing is interesting because I do think one of the things, someone's asked me what the problem is, and I'm like, they're surrounded by people who get

They pay, they own, and they don't have anyone disagreeing with them. There's no disagreement, there's no debate. Everyone is in violent agreement together, and then they feel victimized as a group. Yes. Where there was always debate with him. There was always debate. I know there was a folklore that you didn't debate him. That's not true. In fact, if you didn't debate him, he would kind of mow you down.

And he just, he did not work well with those kind of folks that would not feel comfortable in debating and pushing back. And it was a very different environment for me because I came out of an environment that was more hierarchical in nature. And you sort of, each person agreed with the higher level person before you entered a room and there was no debate and no discussion. What was your greatest debate with him over?

Probably the way the initial iPhone was sold. What was your side? I was for putting it in the subsidy model, and he was for the rev share. And his way was more creative and more different. My way would have scaled faster, at least I felt strongly, and so we were in quite a discussion about this.

for a while. It was a multi-year discussion. What about you, Lorraine? What was the debate you would have as partners? What was the debate I would have with Steve? Besides the couch. No, no. We were together for 22 years, so pick your month and we'd debate it. LAUGHTER

So I want to finish up talking a little bit about some things you're going to do. Would you want to talk about the archive or not? Oh, yes. Go ahead. Yes. So what Kara's alluding to is...

A group of us, the three of us and others who worked with Steve over the years came together as advisors and we have a lead historian and archivist in a small group that has established the Steve Jobs archive. And while we do have some,

some artifacts and some actual real material. The archive is much more about ideas, as Johnny was describing, and really rooted in Steve's long-held notion that once you understand that

outside of the natural world, everything in the built environment and all the systems that govern our life on the planet were built and designed by other humans. And once you have that insight, you understand that you as a human can change it, can prod it, can perhaps interrogate it and stretch it. And in that way, human progress happens. And so he would reference the fact that

everything that you're born into, the design of everything around you, the clothes that you wear, all of these decisions were made by someone else and the actual artifacts were made by someone else. And so as humans, we have a responsibility to put things back into that pool of human existence in a way that benefits

all and that moves things forward and that and thereby we have human progress. So what is in the archive, this idea of? So we have well, the archive will has a has a website, Steve Jobs Archive, and then then there will be some programs that we have. There'll be other products that I won't speak about at the moment.

There's a lot of, over the years very carefully, a very brilliant documentary filmmaker has interviewed hundreds of people who have reminiscence, memories, experiences, really beautiful stories to tell about Steve and working with Steve. And so we've collected that as well.

There's also a lovely body of stuff that's just Steve, that it's not somebody's interpretation of. And I think one of the things that we thought was so powerful about that was that you actually started to get a sense of how he did see the world.

and it's not somebody trying to make sense of something he said or a way he behaved, you get to see a little note that he scratched or a way he annotated an email or a presentation. But when you see something directly, you start to get a sense of what he was thinking and why, and you realise how much he's lost, don't you, when somebody else tries to make sense of someone's behaviour?

So what would he be doing now? My last question. We have a Zoom question from someone I know. We have some questions from the audience. What would he be doing now if he had lived? What do you imagine he'd be working on? Just guess. Oh, I wouldn't want to guess. I think Steve was constantly changing. And so he wasn't static.

He would take a firmly held belief and present it with new facts, with change like this. It was one of the great things I admired about him. He would be dogmatic about something, presented something else like this, change. And I think that is such a great characteristic of people because people get held back by their old thinking.

regardless of what new thoughts and ideas come up, and he never did. And so, you know, I knew what he was thinking in 2010 and 2011 and before, but what he would be thinking about today, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess. He would be evolving. He also was quite mindful about having -- not staying too long at the helm and making space for others.

He did have a fantasy of teaching eventually. And because we live right near Stanford, you know, that notion of riding the bike to Stanford and teaching classes there was very... Professor Steve Jobs? Yes, exactly. What did he want to teach?

Oh, well, I mean, I think he could teach almost anything and people would really benefit from it. Not driving. Go ahead. Actually, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I think part of curiosity, which I think defines so much of Steve,

is your appetite to learn. And to learn is more important than being right. I think that goes towards what Tim was saying, which is, you know, you can present with passion a perspective or a point of view, but you're doing that not to win an argument. You're doing it just to try and understand. And I think there's something so...

pure about their appetite just to learn because it makes you question the motivation and the motivation not to win arguments. The motivation is to be able to do better work. And I always loved how clear he was, I mean, about

You know, a bunch of stuff can be consequential to doing better work, like disruption. Disruption was never one of our goals, was it? It happened to be a consequence of just trying to do something better. But not a goal. But not a goal. Or a company motto, for example. Stuff like that. All right, we have a question from Zoom. First, go. Hi, guys. Hi, Walt. Hi. So, you know, I spent...

For a journalist, for an outsider, I spent many, many hours talking to him. We would have

half an hour interview schedule that would wind up being two and a half hours and would go far beyond whatever he wanted to show me or whatever I wanted to ask him, covering a lot of the fields that you're talking about beyond just what Apple was doing. But one thing he never mentioned in any of his talks with me was the stock market, was market cap.

was the stock price. Now, in the early days, as Lorene mentioned, he did care about, you know, the revenues and the profits of the company because it was almost dead. But once the company got on a kind of steady footing financially, my impression was,

Yes, he cared about the company doing well, but he did not care about what the stock market thought. At least I couldn't discern that at all. And as you know, he also didn't even appear on most of the earnings calls. So and to me, the whole tech industry is like caught up in this in what the stock, what Wall Street thinks. So can you talk about that? Am I wrong or am I wrong?

missing something? And would he be as frenetic about the price of the stock and your $2.5 trillion market cap as some other people are, journalists and other people who write about it, analysts?

I think it would be unimportant to him, Walt. I would agree with you completely. He was not driven by the financial results. He was driven by making the best products that really enriched people's lives. And so he was about changing the world. And that is really not marketing speak. That is what drove him.

And he saw the success of the company merely the result of doing the other things right. And so he was never confused about focusing on the indirect consequence, on the market and the financial results. He focused on the inputs, getting the products right, making sure they were the best, making sure they were making a difference in people's lives. Thank you, Walt.

All right, I'll see you soon. Okay Karen. Thank you, by the way Walt, Mossberg and I did it together. So everybody give a clap for Walt Mossberg.

OK, we're going to get to some questions. If they are all about the new iPhone, I'm going to make you move on, because I want to talk about Steve Jobs, if you don't mind. It's my conference, and so there you have it. But you can, but-- oh, for fuck's sake. So we'll ask some questions, and then we'll go. And I have something I want-- the last thing I want to read. So, Neil-- and all of them short, please. Go. Yes. Don't worry. I was there this morning. I don't have any questions about the iPhone. They wouldn't let me on your plane, Tim.

You guys talked a lot about how Steve would think the current political climate was really divisive, that social media was bad. At the end of the day, those apps run on your phone. Those apps are why the smartphones are popular. How do you think Steve would have felt about the phone itself enabling some of these applications? And would he have wanted to take more control of that interaction? I think...

Well, I don't want to forecast what Steve would have thought in 2020, too. But what we felt along the way is that some people were using the phone too much. And we never put out the phone for somebody to endlessly, mindlessly scroll in a feed.

And so we created things like Screen Time to try to help people know what they were doing, and with the thinking that if people knew that people were really smart, that they would alter their behavior. And we've seen some of that. So I suspect when he started parental controls back before anyone was talking about parental controls,

And I suspect that he would be, you know, thinking about more of those things. Are you as worried about TikTok as everyone else at this conference? You know, I don't feel like a TikTok expert. And so I would...

you know, let other folks talk about that. - You don't seem like a TikTok expert. Although I do enjoy your air fryer content, Tim. It's really fun to watch. When you think about design in that same vein, do you worry about how it's used? Do you think about the intentionality of design?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're innovating, there will always be unintended consequences. Some of them wonderful and some of them not wonderful. And I think the issue is just how, you know, your decision in terms of what responsibility you need to shoulder. I think the more powerful, I mean, there's wonderful historic precedent for innovation.

powerful tools, having that ability to be used in both ways. But I think the consequences, at the end of the day, I think it comes down to how you view your responsibility. Okay, Ina? Ina Fried with Axios. This is a question I've actually wanted to ask several of you for a long time.

We've alluded to Steve's more challenging personality qualities. I'm curious which of his hard edges you think served him and which were the ones that kind of got in his way sometimes? Oh, Lorraine, you get that one. There were a lot of qualities that served him because he was...

an extraordinary leader and he had, as we were saying, confidence in his own abilities to see and understand, but also something in it that Tim mentioned is Steve actually called other people

All the time, every day he had a list of people he called and he just would ask them, what's going on? What are you seeing? What are you thinking about? What are you watching? And he would go across industry and call people who, of course, would answer the phone. And he would just pick people's brains constantly, which was a really interesting and I think

not widely spoken about trait of his. And I think it made him, it reminded him to keep a beginner's mind and it reminded him that these ideas exist

and are held by very, very smart people. I think, you know, there were times, however, when he would, to his detriment, perhaps feel so confident in a point of view that, this is the corollary, that he actually didn't necessarily interrogate it in a way that he might have, but it also played to his benefit.

I think there was one thing that really struck me was that if you think of the behavior or the characteristics of somebody who is so curious and questioning, and then you try and think of the characteristics of a person that has the required resolve and focus to turn an idea, despite all the problems, despite all of the barriers, to turn that idea into something,

something real. And then along that way, when you come against a problem, you can't just stamp your foot. You have to go back and exercise those muscles of curiosity again. And I think one of the things that's perhaps not obvious is that doesn't happen just once or twice in a program. It happens once or twice every morning. And I think that sometimes if you don't have that sense of context, it could look like antisocial behavior.

Hi, Zia Yousaf, thank you all for these amazing insights. I wanted to ask you about the role of spirituality in Steve's journey and the focus on simplicity, the curiosity, the design aesthetic. Did that play a role? Is that also driven, Johnny, for you and others around design? Any thoughts on that? And I don't mean religion. I just truly mean spirituality for me.

I think it's tough to have a conversation about beauty without being very humble and aware that there's an awful lot more going on than we can easily articulate or see or take a photograph of. And so I think that, again, those are those wonderfully unusual juxtapositions of conversations that are...

maybe be perceived as esoteric and ethereal right next to well what what does the wall thickness need to be here so we can call this properly and I think those are lovely conversations to have you know at the same time I would say it was spiritual oh yes I think yeah when he was young at

19 or 20, he dropped out of college and he went to India. And that was a spiritual exploration that he had and then came back and studied Zen Buddhism. And for many, many years had a teacher that he would sit, saw Zen with and study with.

And that was in the early, early days, obviously, of Apple. But I think it absolutely shaped his sense of his place in the universe as an individual being. And also it helped shape his sense of time. And I think he had a very sophisticated notion, not only that

that our time, all of our time, is quite brief in the context of the rest of the natural world, but also the way to use your time in a very wise and deliberate manner. OK, right here.

Good evening, beautiful people. My name is Laquan. So we talked about connectivity being very vital to what Steve saw. And I think a big aspect of connectivity is communication. And communication was revolutionized with the iMessage, right?

How do you think Steve would feel currently about the state of communication, specifically between people who aren't within the community of Apple and are part of the iMessage, but more so on the green side of things with Android? We've seen a massive divide there. So how do you think Steve would feel about adapting RCS, rich communication systems, that would normalize and streamline that?

Tim, can you bring peace to the phone wars? He always told me not to wonder what he would have thought just to do the right thing. I don't hear our users asking that we put a lot of energy on that at this point. And so...

Now, I would love to... The phone wars continue. I would love to convert you to iPhone. Got you. It's just, it's tough not to make it personal, but I can't send my mom certain videos or she can't send me certain videos. Buy your mom an iPhone. All right. Let's get to as many questions as we can. Go right up here.

No, right here and then we'll go here. Go ahead. Yeah, you said privacy is a human right. It's also monetizable. You've rolled out a lot of features, app tracking, transparency. It's probably the big one. It improved privacy. Also hobbled some of your competitors. They've been very vocal about that. I don't have to list who they are.

You're also reportedly building up your own network. So it's obvious how that would help Apple. How does that help your users? And is that still consistent with Steve's vision for privacy? Well, we started advertising back in 2009 or 2010 with iAds.

and then it morphed into search ads and so forth. But we follow the same rules or, in fact, more stringent rules on privacy than we put others up to. And so digital advertising is not a bad thing. We've never said digital advertising is a bad thing.

What is not good is vacuuming up people's data when they're not doing so on an informed basis. That's what is bad. And so we try to put the user in the driver's seat there to own their data. Okay, right here.

Hi, how's everybody doing? First things first, I'm glad to actually see you guys in person. It's like the people who pretty much govern my life. Okay. They're real. They are. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you. And I wrote down this question because I've been thinking about this just in regards to my business and what I want. So for you guys, to me, you guys are like the Nike of technology and products. Same way to me, I see Nike as the apple of shoes and apparel.

So it's like for me, I want to know how do you gain that monopolization over your market? And how do you keep that grasp over your market and never let it go? Because I know it's a journey. I know it's a struggle. I know it's a fight. But you guys have competitors, but we don't see your competitors. We see you. So it's like, how do we get that grasp of the market if we're looking to change in our business? We actually have fierce competitors. We're in the...

Most competitive industry there probably is a smartphone market, you know, we're not the market leader in terms of market share Samsung is and if you watch football or any other thing on your on your weekend You will see their ads everywhere and so there's a and of course there's lots of other people in the smartphone business as well including Google and

Huawei and Oppo and Vivo and Xiaomi, and so all of these folks are spending tons of money around the world. What we do is we just try to very simply tell our product story, say what we're about, and we try to make it as simple a message as possible, because there's a limit to the messages that you can get across in a 30-second ad or even a one-minute ad.

And so you'll see us occasionally highlight maybe photography and the beauty of the photos that you can take. Maybe another time we might focus on video, and so we may take one feature and really highlight it in a great way. Maybe we highlight privacy.

And maybe we highlight the ability of the iPhone to withstand drops and so forth in certain cases. And so just make it very simple is our message. Okay, and you say you guys have fierce competitors, but if I were to ask everybody here to ask, who in here has an iPhone or an Apple product? This is what I mean by you guys have the monopoly. No, it's...

No, the facts don't bear you out. All right, well, thank you. Thank you. All right, thank you. We don't have time for more questions. I'm sorry. Apologies. Sorry, Steve. And you get to talk to them plenty. And same thing with you, Lauren. So I'm going to indulge you. One more question, final question. And thank you all for being here. I really appreciate it. It means a lot to me.

One word for Steve Jobs if you had to say, I know there's so many words, but one word, and I have one, and I'm going to finish up on that. One word. Curiosity. I don't know. I'm still thinking. Johnny? That's an impossible question, isn't it? And he wouldn't answer it. Hard to know. Radiant. That's a great one. I would say pure.

Nice. You could think of something. See? I'm going to stay surprising. And I'm going to tell one Steve Jobs story, which took place at Code. We were in the back. And Walt was, he had just come off and he had met, I think, Louie for the first time when he was, maybe if Louie or Alex.

And he started asking me intense questions about how we had them, da-da-da-da-da, like a lot. And he never did that. Like, he was always interested in Walt. I was like the girl standing next to Walt most of the time for him because he and Walt had a very interesting relationship. But...

He was really interested. He asked tons and tons of questions. And it was because he himself had been adopted. And he asked about adoption and this and that. And I said, well, I had the baby because I have a uterus and it's great. But we're doing this adoption and that. And there were lots of adoption problems at the time for gay people. And

He told me his whole story sitting there. It was amazing, which has been reported. It wasn't quite the same as it's been reported, but he told the story about the doctor and his parents and this and that. And one of the things he did was say, you're not who you were born to.

You know, because I was like, "Oh, I consider Alex," it must have been Alex, "I consider him my kid. I consider, I didn't have him, but he's my kid. I adopted him." And he said, "It's not who you're born to." And he talked about his adopted parents, how much he loved them. He was crying. He made me cry. When I think about it, I cry about it. And he went on and talked about it. And he said, "Just remember, it doesn't matter where you came from. Like, it's who you are and the people who love you."

I was surprised. And that's what I would say about him. He was surprising as a person. And I had thought he was a very different kind of not like that. And it was really quite a moment. And then, of all things, he hugged me, which I don't like. But he did. And it was really I just couldn't believe it. I was sort of like, all right, a hog's some jobs. But the reason why I want to read the last thing from his and this may make me cry. I read it every day.

three months. And this is why we do the things we do. Remembering, I think I'm not gonna be able to read this. Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make big choices in life. Because almost everything, all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure, these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important.

Remembering that you're going to die is the best way to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You're already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart. I think we'll end on that.