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Ready actors! Three, two, one, action! It's probably safe to say there are few fantasies in this world as intoxicating as the rise of a nobody to sudden stardom. I'm Valerie, I don't know if you remember my name. And if the vehicle for that stardom, a wildly successful movie, is the very first project of an Oregon glassblower and his high school-aged daughter,
Well, that's an even better fantasy, isn't it? They could almost see the posters, the marquee, that evocative title. From the Dark. Such a sweet fantasy it was. Except, maybe In the Dark would have been a more appropriate title. Because that's what the filmmakers were in the dark. In the Dark.
For years now, we've followed the case of Tucker Reed, a whip-smart published author who knows how to tell a story.
and who has the looks and charisma and voice to land the lead on the feature film. So, I don't know about you guys, but I am ready for a shot. Yeah, that's what I was just saying. Hey, are we still on for tonight? Of course. We're going to be loud, dumb, and crazy tonight. So, maybe not a big surprise that Tucker's case, the shooting death of her uncle Shane, played out like a limited-run streaming series unfolding in real time. The story within a story. ♪
It felt like there was a knife to my throat and I didn't have anywhere to run. But I don't think I had to be a sheep again. In this episode, you'll hear Tucker's version of the story, as told to police just hours after she shot her uncle to death. He was banging the door into my mother. My mother was screaming and he was screaming. And I had the gun and... I'm sorry.
This is Dateline NBC's newest podcast, Killer Roll. Tucker first told her story on a hot night in July 2016 in an 8x8 room at the Jackson County Sheriff's Office just five hours after Shane Moore was shot to death. Tucker in jeans and a blue and white striped t-shirt, her blonde hair pulled back. She was barefoot, the way you might be at home on a midsummer's day.
But of course, this wasn't home. Hi, Tucker. Hi. Hi. I'm Bill George. I'm a detective with Medford. My name is Tony Young. I'm a detective with Medford Police. She seemed to me, just on first blush, meek.
mannered young lady that seemed upset. Tony Young had been a cop for a long time. Big, easygoing guy by the look of him. And he was easy to talk to, gentle even when necessary. And Tony had something in common with Tucker. He once had to kill a man
though it was in the line of duty. So maybe he could understand how Tucker was feeling as she huddled against a wall, weeping, knees pulled up to her chin. A lot led you to where we're at today, but we've got to have it from you. You were there. I wasn't. Bill wasn't. We've got to have it from you, what was going on in your mind to get a complete picture of this.
But every shooting is different, of course. And Tony only had a hazy account of what Tucker did. And two women to tell him the story. Tucker and her mother, and sometimes makeup artist, Kelly Moore, the victim's sister.
It's always helpful, the more you can learn first, the better prepared you are for talking to somebody. So in that circumstance, I had done some computer research prior to them even arriving at the Sheriff's Department. Basically, what you could find on Wikipedia regarding Aisling Tucker Moore Reed, I learned that being her full name.
I learned that she was a USC graduate, was involved in a lawsuit involving the college regarding a rape investigation. Also, her mother, Kelly Moore, had been a practicing attorney in the past. Interesting. Very interesting. Not the normal people I'm used to sitting across from talking to in an interview about a shooting. The Wikipedia entries Detective Tony Young found for Tucker and her mom, Kelly,
Read almost like a Playbill bio handed out before a live performance. And with that introduction to the characters before him, Detective Young and his partner Bill Ford joined Tucker in the little interview room.
We take a case like this and try to learn as much as we can about what was going on. We know some family dynamics are involved here. We know that there's some history going on here. We understand a lot about family.
what kind of lettuce here today, but not from you. Okay. Okay? And it's vital that we get it in your words and what you saw, what you were thinking, and things like that. That's what we offer to you at this point to do. Okay? Because I can tell by talking to you in just a brief amount of time, this is not a normal day for you to end up here doing this. No. Okay. All right.
Then it was Tucker's turn to talk, and she proceeded to tell a wrenching story of a family living in fear, hostage to the anger of one man. My maternal uncle, Shane, has been pretty much weekly, I would say, threatening my life, my mother's life, my dog's life.
and our property, as well as my grandmother's life. He assaulted me in September, so he was not supposed to speak to me. He was not supposed to call her home. Tucker got a restraining order against Shane. Her mom, Kelly, the attorney, helped her. And then the phone call. So we get this call from my grandmother saying she's scared.
And she doesn't elaborate. This is what's that Sunday? The prior Sunday. My mother and my brother and I went out there. And when they got to the ranch, said Tucker, her grandmother told them that Shane had been trying to intimidate her into signing a revised will. And my grandmother kind of huddled into herself and said, he said he would kill you, Kelly, if...
Kelly, remember, is Tucker's mom, so Uncle Shane threatened her life, too. Tucker's brother left the following day, which, according to Tucker, seemed to embolden her Uncle Shane.
He just kept circling the house. He would come around and he would call and he would threaten my mother. And today he told my mother that if she things up for him, he would... At which point, Tucker waved her right index finger across her throat as if slitting it. Is that something you saw or your mother told you? She told me. Okay. And that is kind of background information I can provide you.
And I just don't feel like I'm in a good position to speak about the incident today at all without a clear head and without a lawyer present. And I'm sorry about that if that causes you any more trouble. Well, that was a surprise. Tucker had seemed so open, keen to tell them everything that happened out at the ranch, but...
Suddenly, after leading the detectives right up to the deadly event, she said she was done before telling them what would have been the details of the shooting itself.
But Tucker said she knew her rights. I was pre-law before this. You know probably better than I do. Did my life now? I know. I know. But that kind of ends our interview at this point. Okay. Right now we're done. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you, detective. And with that, the detectives left the room.
And that's where the interview ends. And when she provided this statement and requested to have an attorney present, it was done. We noted the time, said goodbye. Did you comment to each other about what had just happened in there and whether or not she was credible? When myself and the other detective left the room, once she ended the interview, we commented on that fact that it was almost seemed canned.
So the incident itself was pretty hazy just then. Correct. We have not put a lot of edges on what really took place out there that day. No. And then, it was just a few minutes after they left the room, somebody watching a monitor noticed something.
Couldn't help but. It was brought to my attention that she was waving at the camera and talking to the camera by another detective that's been monitored outside. So back you went. Back we went. Tucker said there was something she forgot to tell the detectives. I just wanted to add one more thing. Okay. Okay.
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The air hung heavy in the courtroom. The people pressed shoulder to shoulder. They'd heard the gossip and the whispers about a family teeming with passion and hate, about a mysterious disappearance, and a pile of bones found burning in a lime pit. And now they wanted to know what really happened. But even they were not prepared for the story that came spilling out. The secrets, the lies, the confessions, and the ending so unimaginable.
And now you will hear it too. The Dead Alive on Morrison Mysteries. A true story that became a classic novel. Starting August 26th, wherever you get your podcasts. Yes, Tucker told the detective she wanted a lawyer, but for this extra bit, she said she really didn't need one. She just wanted to explain, she said, why police were not called days before the argument with Shane crescendoed to his death.
Why they didn't call when Shane began making his scary inheritance demands, even though he was threatening and browbeating her grandmother, she said. I kept insisting that we call the police because that's elder abuse. And my mother said if we called the police, he would just go berserk.
She was afraid that he would set fire to the house, that he would cause damage. That's why nobody called in. That's why my grandmother didn't report anything. That's why my mother didn't report anything. She thought that this was the best way to protect everybody because we hadn't been getting protection. So nobody from there called the police in? For the elder abuse, no.
And if Shane did go berserk, as Tucker put it, and torch the house, all would be embers before a fire truck could get to them way out on their lonely country road, miles and miles from anywhere. A good 30 minutes from town, if you could even find it, nestled among the conifers in an area known as the Applegate. Tell me about the Applegate. Where is that? And what's it like there?
The Applegate is a rural community outside of Medford and Jacksonville. It goes all the way to the California border. It's wine country, very beautiful and remote in a lot of places. There's mountains in that area that have some properties that are completely isolated from cell coverage and power. This was about as remote as you could get in Jackson County.
Which itself is enormous. Jackson County is more than twice the size of the entire state of Rhode Island. It's a great place if you want to escape. Yeah, sort of get off the grid altogether out there, huh? Exactly. But if you're isolated with a violent uncle who threatened to burn down the house with you and your mom and grandmother in it... Paranoia, it's just about so much. And no cell service...
Well, that sounded like something out of The Shining. You can see how terrifying all that might have been to Tucker, who was warming now to her story. No need for a lawyer after all, apparently. And she told about the day she shot her uncle.
A notary had arrived at her grandmother's ranch that afternoon, she said. A notary summoned by Shane to witness the document Shane demanded the grandmother sign. My mom, she was like, we need to also add some stuff because he's continuing to threaten to kill me. So they all gathered in the grandmother's kitchen to look over this document.
Everybody but Shane, that is, who, remember, was under Tucker's restraining order. Meaning, she could have him arrested if he came into the house at all. Theoretically, that is. There being no cops around to do any arresting. But as the women gathered in the kitchen, Shane suddenly appeared.
Where was Shane at? Where was he watching from?
Was Shane peering through the window? Tucker said her mom picked up this document he wanted signed and tore it into pieces. All within his eyesight.
A bold move to provoke a man who might just burn the house down. And that's when all hell broke loose. This is the important thing. As soon as my mom tore up the document, he ran towards the front door, which was unlocked. Did you see it run? Yes. Okay. And my mom and I ran. I grabbed, I ran, I... This is the thing. My mom ran.
and I could hear her making noises and I started screaming and this is where it gets hazy for me. I picked up the gun. Your mom got up from the seat? My mother, yes. And ran towards the door. Ran like full-blown run? I remember I was running. I don't know how fast it was.
Tucker described a life or death struggle. Shane trying to get in, her mom trying to keep him out. Tucker forced to act.
Now, sitting in the interview room, describing a killing that happened just hours before, Tucker choked up and paused and grabbed a tissue. Why did you pick up the gun? I was absolutely sure he was going to kill my mother. He told her earlier in the day that he was going to kill her if she messed anything up for him, and she ripped pieces of paper up right in front of him. Why do you think your mom ran towards the door?
Because it wasn't locked. So she was. And then did you actually see the door open? Yes. And did you see Shane open the door? Yes. So you can see that. You can see that Shane was in the opening of the door. Yes. And could you see your mom at the door? Yes, trying to close it and lock it. And could you see your member? Because there's a deadbolt on it.
Tucker described in terrifying cinematic detail how the rest of the scene played out as Shane tried to force his way into the house. You know how like in horror movies the hand goes around the door? Right. He was like wedging himself so the door couldn't be closed yet. How were you holding the gun at this point? It was only in one hand. I sort of remember just sort of having it in the air.
It just happened so fast, she said.
Though she did warn him, she said, she warned him. Can you, in your best words and your best recollection, tell us exactly what you said to him? Leave my mother alone. Get the hell out of here. What I'd like you to do, Tucker, is do it in the voice and the loudness that you actually said it. Just free in action for us. As loud as you need to be. You know you're not supposed to be here. Get out of here. I have a gun. Leave.
You're violent. We all know you're violent. Get out of here. It was very loud. There was no mistaking it. Yeah, she was holding the gun, she said. She was waving it around. But she said she didn't even know how it worked. Do you make a conscious decision to fire the gun? I don't think, no. Because to fire a gun, I've always thought you had to cock a gun. This gun doesn't do that. It just fired.
She only grabbed the gun to threaten Shane. The shooting itself, she said, was really just an accident. So, that was Tucker's version of the story. They got the whole thing. But was the story all true? A little bit true? Not true at all? Would there be other ways to tell it? As all this drama was playing out in the police interview room, there was really only one critic who mattered.
His name is Gabe Birchfield, the lead detective. Bearded, lanky, laconic. Think of John Krasinski from The Office, with a bit of an edge. And Birchfield's review? There was a lot of displayed emotion from Tucker in that, and it was hard to determine if it was actual emotion that was happening or was she just putting on a show. Detective Birchfield watched on a monitor outside the interview room. He listened carefully.
But he also looked at Tucker's body language. When looking at her, she seemed emotional. She would pull her knees up to her chest and put her head between her knees and do different things like that. But when she wanted to say something, it didn't seem like she was upset. She would get it out there if it was matter of fact. Did you know about her acting ability when you initially saw that first conversation? I didn't know that she had acting ability. I knew that she...
was supposedly an author and wrote for several things. She seemed very dramatic, which is hard to discredit at the time if you just shot your uncle. I mean, you don't know how someone's going to react after that scenario, but it seemed over the top. But was it? Tucker, remember, was only one of the women in that country kitchen. And now, in the sheriff's department, Kelly Moore, Tucker's mother, was waiting in the wings.
If Tucker came off as a tearful ingenue, Kelly was loud and angry and absolutely certain her brother Shane was out to kill them. And I'm trying to shut the door and he's shoving it into me, shoving it into me. And I'm leaning forward trying to shut the door. Take your time. It's okay. And...
He was trying to come in. He was trying to hurt me. And God only knows what else he was going to do. To say Kelly was animated would be an understatement. She fairly bristled under her bangs or straight strawberry blonde hair with a rage that seemed to fill the room. I'm so glad he's dead. I am so... I can't tell you...
I don't grieve for my brother. I am glad this man is dead. Shane was violent, she said. Their lives were in danger out there on the ranch. I'm telling you that moments before my brother died, he was assaulting me with the door. He was screaming at me. He was trying to force his way into a house he had no right to be in. I didn't know what Shane was going to do. I didn't know what Shane was going to do. It was horrifying.
What was going on here? The detectives were going to have to get to the bottom of the shooting, no doubt. But there were nagging questions. Why would a lawyer mom and her eloquent daughter get caught up in a deadly confrontation at a house on a ranch in the middle of nowhere? Something, or a bunch of somethings, led to that moment. So, what? Quite a story, that. Worthy of a movie.
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I did not want to kill my uncle. I did not want to ruin my life. As the detectives found out, Tucker Reed and her mom were two very accomplished women. You have a law degree? Yes, I've practiced law for 20 years. Okay. Kelly, once an attorney, left the field to co-author with her then-husband a best-selling true crime book, Deadly Medicine.
which was later adapted into a made-for-TV movie, appeared on NBC. Just please call me, okay? And Tucker? She was always sort of ahead of the curve on everything. Tucker's dad, Daniel Reed, is a former actor himself. And you can see why. Thick gray hair, bearded. He looks like a cross between Sean Connery and George Clooney.
Daniel said Tucker was a natural performer, even as a child. Kelly would make these fantastic little costumes for Tucker. Peter Pan and a fairy angel. And she was, you know, she liked it. She got a lot of attention and she liked the costumes and liked parading around. With some kids, they do that and they're not comfortable. And Tucker was always perfectly comfortable. And it was a delight to perceive.
Okay, at this time we have a special number from Tucker Reeves. By the time she was four, Tucker was the star of her preschool graduation ceremony in Morgan Hill, California, performing a cover of Shirley Temple's signature song. But her childhood was a fairy tale for Tucker and her siblings, her father told us. It could have been written by the Brothers Grimm.
The success he and Kelly had with the book and the movie deals was never to be repeated. Unfortunately, we didn't, as a team, impress the people that we interacted with that they wanted to work with us again. So that created a great deal of stress and strain on our relationship. Which led to arguments about bills and debt and who bore the most fault in what was now a very unhappy family.
Our kids grew up in a very, kind of like a war zone. Psychologically and emotionally it was a very tense atmosphere that they were brought up into. I think it was February sometime in 2000 where our marriage ended. Difficult divorce? Very. Contentious. Over what? What were the big issues? Where they were going to live and what kind of custody arrangement we were going to be able to agree to.
She insisted on sole care, custody and control of their upbringing. Kelly won that fight. One sole custody of Tucker and Tucker's younger sister and brother. But after the divorce was settled, Daniel said he had immediate regrets. Tried to get it overturned. Even now, years later, he chokes up as he describes the scene in court. And so the judge asked me, "Why do you want me to set this aside?" And I said,
I can't tell you exactly, but I know that if you don't, something, something really bad is going to happen.
But Daniel's feelings didn't persuade the judge. So Kelly was free to take their three children and move from California to Southern Oregon to be closer to her parents and to the area's thriving performing arts scene. There, Tucker attended Ashland High School and its prestigious theater studies department.
Ashland is... So there's the Oregon Shakespeare Festival is there. This state-of-the-art professional theater that's won Tonys and things. Ashland High is where Tucker met Meg Windows. You remember Meg in that horror movie with Tucker. You have a lot of people who move to Ashland because their kids do theater and they want to learn theater from people at OSF, which I did. I actually...
It was pretty cool in high school. I got to act in plays that were directed by OSF actors and directors. And it was definitely very competitive. I first met Tucker in 2005. We were in Guys and Dolls together at the high school. She learned her lines very quickly. And she added all of this interesting character business stuff.
Yes, Tucker was one impressive young woman. And then, after high school, still a teenager mind you, Tucker and her mom and sister co-authored two young adult novels. Tucker narrated the audiobook versions. Amber House was an odd place at any hour. I mean, she had her own Wikipedia page. But it was different from the one created for Wynne.
On young Tucker's page, any reader would discover she had a significant pedigree, if you could put it that way, traced all the way back to settlers from the Mayflower and Jamestown, Virginia. It was really no surprise she was admitted to the prestigious University of Southern California in Los Angeles, where soon after arriving, she fell in love and eventually moved in with her young man.
Just about the perfect plot point on which to bring a happy story to a blissful conclusion. Roll credits. But life. Things happen, don't they? They happened to Tucker, too. Two years into the relationship, Tucker's boyfriend moved out. And six weeks after that, Tucker filed a civil suit claiming the young man sexually assaulted her when they first started dating.
She tried to get him kicked out of USC. It was a big deal, serious business. So much so, the Student Judicial Affairs Committee conducted an investigation and ruled against her. Tucker was outraged. Tucker went to war.
She wrote a blog accusing the adjudicators who ruled against her, both women, of ignorance, incompetence and bias. She claimed they were abusive, treated her with disdain. She complained that the Los Angeles DA rejected her case for lack of evidence. She co-founded a group called Student Coalition Against Rape, SCAR. She wrote articles about her experience for the Huffington Post and Cosmopolitan magazine.
She even held an on-campus news conference. I believe that the weaknesses could be pinpointed and fixed. Appeared on CNN. It's very interesting to note that a victim can come forward with a binder of evidence, but the school will choose to believe a completely unsubstantiated claim from a male student who denies it.
Oh, well, he certainly did deny it. In fact, he did far more than just deny it. He filed a lawsuit of his own for libel, in which he pointed out that Tucker told the Student Judicial Affairs Committee that she did not initially think she was sexually assaulted, and then, quote, it was after a conversation with her mother, Kelly S. Moore, when Tucker began to think she was sexually assaulted.
Tucker's ex demanded $100,000 in damages. And then both lawsuits, the boyfriends and Tucker's, were dismissed. What a firestorm it all was. In an effort to blow away some of the smoke and get a clearer picture of what happened, we contacted Tucker's ex-boyfriend and the two adjudicators and the co-founder of SCAR. None responded. But Tucker's life had taken a sharp turn. She never did graduate from USC.
Instead, she returned to Oregon and wrote for a local paper for a little while. But for Tucker, it seemed there could be no peace wherever she was. All that ugly turmoil at USC was soon upstaged by an even greater strife with her very own uncle, Shane Moore. Did he ever threaten to kill you? Yes. To hear this well-educated, well-spoken young woman tell it, hers was a clear case of self-defense.
After police left the interrogation room, Tucker began sobbing, hyperventilating, seemed so overcome with emotion she collapsed into a fetal position. As lead detective Gabe Birchfield watched Tucker on the monitor, his internal detection system kept twitching. There was a lot of displayed emotion from Tucker in that. It seemed over the top.
Was it grief that brought her to her knees? Or the growing realization she was in very serious trouble? Questions like that were the reason when Birchfield came to take Tucker away in the midst of her emotional collapse. It was not to take her to the hospital. No, he came to take Tucker to jail, where she was charged with manslaughter. Still, Tony Young, one of the detectives who actually questioned Tucker, wasn't satisfied.
Like somehow the curtain had come down before the final scene. I had that nagging in my mind that this was a lot more. It had a lot of different tendrils that there was more going on here. Oh, indeed. There was. Next on Killer Roll. Did you think Shane was going to cause you harm coming through the door? Yes. Cause who harm?
Killer Roll is brought to you by Dateline NBC.
For Dateline NBC, Vince Sterla is our producer. Linda Zhang is the associate producer. Joe Delmonico is the senior producer. And Susan Knoll oversees our digital programming. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Liz Cole is our executive producer. And David Corvo is our senior executive producer. From Neon Hum Media, supervising producer is Samantha Allison.
Associate producers are Liz Sanchez and Evan Jacoby. Producers are Crystal Genesis and Alex Schumann. Executive producer is Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design and mixing by Scott Somerville. And music by Andrew Eapen.
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