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July 11th, 2019. Chandler, Arizona. When Lori Vallow returned from dropping off her son JJ at school, it was to find a swarm of police around her house. A fire truck. An ambulance. Police had taped off the street. Lori's brother Alex was sitting on the curb, talking to police.
Alex's story was that when Lori had gotten into a fight with her husband Charles, Lori's 16-year-old daughter Tylee took out a bat to protect her mom. Charles took the bat from her, and Alex tried to defuse the situation. I stepped in and told them they needed to separate. Right. So then my sister leaves with my niece. How long ago did they leave? 20 minutes maybe. I don't know. Okay. So not terribly long. No, no, no. Oh, okay.
According to Alex, that's when Lori, Tylee, and her son, JJ, left the house. But after they left, that's when the fight turned nasty. And then he's coming back at me, and he's still got the bat in his hand. I'm like, what are you doing? And where are you at? We're in the living room. Okay. And then I turned around, and he hit me in the back of the head with the bat. So I went to my room and got my gun. Alex got his gun and then went back to Charles.
And that's why Laurie's new home was crawling with cops.
Now, for a typical person, you or me, this might be quite a shock. We'd have a lot of questions. We'd want to know what had happened. How had it come to this? But not Lori. Lori didn't seem surprised at all. Was she aware of what had happened when she got there? She was. Who would have told her?
She actually was present when all of this happened, and she left prior to the police getting there. And she admitted that straight out, did she? She did. Well, now that was interesting. Not what Alex had said. He had made it sound like Lori, Tylee, and JJ all left the house before any shots were fired. But here they were, saying they'd been at the house during the attack. Why might that be?
Laurie's former knight in shining, her husband Charles Vallow, was dead. Pronounced right there at the scene. Self-defense, Alex said. But might it also be a bit convenient? Laurie's second dead husband. Could they really be just innocent tragedies? Charles' sister Kay Woodcock and her husband Larry do not think so.
That was premeditated. There's no doubt. That is a cock and bull story. And there were liars. He was ambushed. He was ambushed. There's no doubt about it. It was premeditated. And the question remains, where are the kids?
In this episode, the long search for two missing children will lead us to a homicide scene in an empty living room in Chandler, Arizona, through small towns in Utah, to a wedding venue in Las Vegas, a beach in Kauai, and a pet cemetery in the backyard of a man who claims to be eternal. This story is about the charming Lori Vallow, her two dead husbands, her two missing children.
and her belief that the end is nigh. You're listening to Dateline NBC's newest podcast, Mommy Doomsday. So, what was Lori's story? Well, she said that Charles had showed up that morning to take JJ to school. JJ was in the car, ready to go, when Charles realized he'd left his cell phone in the house. But when he went back inside, Lori had it, wouldn't give it to him.
Lori told detectives Nathan Moffitt and Cassandra Inklon that's how the fight got started. Why wouldn't she give him back the phone? Did she tell you? She said that she wouldn't give back the phone because of his response. I think she said something about what's on the phone or what's so important on the phone that you're acting like this. She felt like there was...
Something incriminating there. She had talked about them being separated and things like that. And the way she kind of described it, she didn't come out and say it, but it was almost like one of those aha moments. Like, oh, there's something here. I have something. But she never said what it was. No, she didn't. Tylee said this whole argument freaked her out. So she went and got that baseball bat.
The bat was in her room. It was her bat. Why did she bring the bat out? She brought the bat out the way she explained it to defend her mother, to defend Lori. Against Charles? Correct. So she brings the bat into the equation, and there's an argument continuing. What Tylee describes is that she's kind of in between Charles and Lori. Mm-hmm.
And that at one point she sticks the bat out towards him to kind of, hey, back up, get away. And he, Charles, takes the bat from her. And Alex tries to intervene into this. And Alex describes that he, Charles, eventually strikes him, which is where his injury is from.
At this point, Tylee leaves. She goes outside. She's kind of directed by Lori to go outside because JJ's outside. So Tylee's outside when the actual shooting happens, according to her interview. And then, with Charles dead on the floor, Lori and Tylee left to take JJ to school, Lori said. Seemed best for him to follow his routine. And then Alex called 911, and there they were.
The differences in the accounts were small. Hard for any cop to know, then, how significant they might be. It could mean they'd planned the killing from step one. Or it could mean that Alex was trying to shield his sister, his niece, his nephew, by not revealing they were home when the shooting occurred. Or maybe he was just misremembering who was where when. Trauma and shock have a funny way of messing with your head.
So these discrepancies could be minor. But what was odd was how the family was acting. In the police body cam, Lori was actually giggly, making small jokes, small talk about being new in the neighborhood. Gotcha. How long have you guys lived here? Like three weeks. Oh, geez. Yeah, okay. That's why the neighbors don't know us. Gotcha. Like, hi, neighbor. Sorry.
And she knew, as she tittered about the neighbors, that her husband Charles was lying in a pool of blood on her living room floor, shot to death by her brother. Weird time to be laughing. Detectives described a woman unfazed. And Laurie stayed that way when she was interviewed at the police station. Did she have any kind of emotional or traumatic reaction to Charles's death? Not really. That's kind of strange, isn't it?
It was one of the things about the interview that was definitely a little weird. What about Tylee? She was very cooperative, talked to me for quite a while, but... She wasn't traumatized? She... no. She seemed pretty calm and, you know, saying not... didn't have much of a reaction to his death. Hmm.
Did Tali ever say that she was, that she regretted getting that baseball bat, that she wished she hadn't done it? I think she did. She, you could see her almost blame herself for kind of not starting the situation, but maybe she, I think she definitely blamed herself for introducing that bat into it. She used the words with you, in retrospect, I probably shouldn't have got the bat. Yeah.
Tylee is, when you speak with her and you talk to her, she very much for, I can't think of a better word, but she almost idolizes her mother. You can very much tell when you're around her and you talk to her and you see the two of them interact that I think Lori, what Lori thinks of Tylee is very important to Tylee.
Her mom's opinion matters to her. She's kind of that very kind of typical adolescent girl that she wants her mom's approval and she wants that from her mom. And you could see that just in their, how they interact with each other.
Moffat and Inclan are seasoned detectives. They know how people in shock can act. They'd seen how people would sometimes show less emotion than you'd expect. Hold their sadness for some private place out of the view of strangers. Grief has its ways. But this? For the detectives, this was beyond.
The van ride, because we dropped all of them off at the house afterwards, the van ride was straight up bizarre for me. It was just the weirdest ride I've ever had with three strangers. Why would you say that? Well, Detective Inklin was driving, and I was in the far back because we had Tylee. Tylee was sitting all the way up front, right? And then so Alex was sitting right in front of me, and Lori was to my left.
And Lori was just, it was kind of like a happy-go-lucky. She was just kind of smiling. She was talking about how Tylee was going to go to BYU Hawaii. And it was just a very, very nonchalant... No mention of Charles, no mention of what happened, no mention of any of it. And it was just, it was strange.
Like they were coming back from bowling or something. Yeah. It was weird. Joking around at the shooting scene? Making small talk in the police van? Maybe it was just Laurie's way of coping with the crisis? But to the detectives, it seemed like something else. Did you have any suspicion at that stage, you know, maybe never, but I don't know, but any suspicion that this might have been
not as advertised that there might have been a plan to get rid of Charles somehow? There was concern. There was concern. I was concerned when we had the van ride back from the station. Just the behavior and the interaction was just kind of so far out of what I was expecting that I started getting concerned that there might be something more.
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Charles' sister Kay Woodcock was at a nail salon with her granddaughter when her phone rang. It was one of Charles' grown sons, Cole. And he's like, what the hell is going on? And I said, I don't know, Cole. What are you talking about? Dad, dad's dead. I said, what are you talking about? And I'm at the nail salon, right? Okay, so I couldn't... Anyway, so...
I said, "I don't understand what, you know, what are you talking about, Cole?" Because he was extremely upset. And he said, "Lori said that dad's dead and that's all I know and that she's making funeral arrangements."
And I said, well, Cole, I said, okay, just, you know, just give me a minute. Let me think about this. I'll call you back. So I hung up, and I was just thinking, okay, wait a minute. This is a joke. This isn't real. Charles is as healthy as a horse. She called Lori. No answer. She called Charles. No answer. Then she called her husband, Larry. But he hadn't heard anything either.
In the meantime, my granddaughter and I left the nail salon, and I was extremely upset. I mean, but I was driving to our office, and then Larry called me and said, he's dead. They killed him. And I said, what are you talking about? He said, I Googled Charles Vallow Chandler, Arizona, and they murdered him yesterday morning. They said it was justifiable. And...
I said, "What?" I mean, it's just, "What?" And no charges were laid because supposedly it was self-defense. What did you make of that? That we knew it was, we knew... We knew it wasn't true. Charles sat in our home many times and he's told Kay, he's told me, he's told the rest of the family that if something happens to him, it would be Alex and Lori.
He predicted his own death. So Charles had seen it coming, told friends and family that if something were to happen to him, it would be his wife and her brother. But where did he get that idea? How did he know? Well, six months before Charles was killed, back in January 2019, the couple had another dispute. Why don't you come over here?
And we have more police body cam audio. So what's going on tonight? I can't get in touch with my kids. How old are your kids? Six and a half and 16. A dark suburban street, Gilbert, Arizona. Charles Vallow was standing outside his home, or what used to be his home, talking to the cops, telling a story that was, well, let's say, unusual.
Over the past few months, said Charles, he'd watched his wife's strange religious beliefs grow a tangle of roots. Out there stuff. He had tried to support her, tried to ignore it. He hoped it would get better, but it only got worse. Charles told the cops that while he was out in Texas on a business trip, Laurie told him that he wasn't Charles anymore. His body might be walking around, but inside...
He'd been replaced with an evil spirit. The spirit even had a name. Nick Schneider. Weird. And Laurie told him since Charles was gone, she was getting rid of his stuff. This was concerning, to put it mildly. So Charles headed home. But when he tried to get on the plane, he discovered his ticket had been cancelled. So he bought another.
But when he landed back home in Arizona, his truck was gone. Laurie had taken the truck from airport parking. Charles had to call a friend to borrow a car, as Charles told it to police that night and in court papers he filed later. He also discovered Laurie had taken $35,000 out of his business account. He couldn't even make payroll for his employees.
Charles told the cops that Laurie believed the end times were coming and that she was somehow involved and he knew she would do whatever she imagined she was intended to do. So Charles was worried. For his safety, yes, and for the kids. Which is why he filed a petition to get Laurie committed for a psychiatric evaluation. And that's why he met police outside the house that night.
He was afraid to go in alone. She's lost her mind. I would have to say it. We're LDS. She thinks she's a resurrected being and a God and a member of the 144,000. She's come. Jesus is coming next year. Is this just all recent or has it been going on? It's been going on for about four or five years. It's gotten really, really bad lately. She goes to the temple every day and speaks with Moroni and Jesus Christ.
and they tell her what to do. Last couple of days she says, "I'm not Charles, you're not Charles, you're Nick Schneider." I don't know where she gets this name from. She had all this stuff with these people in Utah who,
Tell her how many past lives she's had. She was married to Moroni way back when. She was also married to James the Just. This is all foreign to me. It's just, it's foreign to me. Well, I'm not LDS. It's crazy stuff. I know you're using LDS terms here. But it's just, she's nonsensical. If you aren't LDS, maybe it seems like these beliefs could all be part of the church teachings and therefore not inherently dangerous.
But Charles knew, and so did we, that these ideas are very far outside the church. These beliefs came from Chad Daybell and Laurie and their little podcast group. They'd been discussing these ideas on road trips to St. George or in Laurie's living room while Charles was out of town. Charles knew it all sounded too crazy to be true, but
But he tried his best to convince police this meant danger. So what makes her a danger to herself and to others? She threatened me, murdered me, killed me. She threatened to murder you? Yes. How did she do that? She said, I will have you destroyed, is what she said there. Okay, that's not a threat to kill you. Yesterday was a threat to kill me. What did she say yesterday? She said, you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles, but I can murder you now with my powers.
Okay. Okay? All right. She says, I'm going to kill you too. I'm going to kill you. So she's speaking as a spiritual being. She's not here. She lost her reality. I love her to death. This is killing me, officer. Oh, I can understand. Our 13th anniversary is next month. We've been at a great marriage. All of a sudden, the last month just blew up. She just lost connection. Okay.
So if we talk to her, is she going to be able to have a rational conversation with us? Oh, she will. I'm sure she will. She'll probably tell me I'm crazy, huh? They tried to have that conversation with Lori that night. Charles said that his house keys were in his truck, gone. They couldn't get in. So Charles and the officers broke into the house that Lori and Charles shared. Well, I'll get in. A swift kick will do it. I'll do a mule kick. We'll try that first, then.
But it was cleared out. Laurie and the kids were gone. The next day, Laurie showed up at the police station. Police might have assumed they'd find a woman who had lost all connection to reality. Somebody who was raving about the end of days and dark spirits. Nick Schneider, whoever that was.
But, surprise, surprise, Lori seemed like a typical, rational, attractive woman. She was good. There's more body cam audio of Lori at the police station. Tylee was with her. So was Lori's friend, Melanie.
They chatted with the cops, all very friendly. Lori and Tylee tried out a few jokes. Got any knock-knock jokes? Lori bragged about Tylee finishing high school, getting her GED. She's going to apply to the academy. She's now a high school graduate, right? At 16? Yeah, are you? Well, she got her GED, so she's moving on with life. You really want to be a police officer? Maybe. You never know. We'll look forward to this stuff, man. Yeah.
They all seemed so normal. And Lori had her own story to tell. Charles, she said, was a very bad husband. He cheated on her, lied to her, and when confronted, turned on her.
So yesterday I got in an argument with my husband on the phone and he was in Texas working and I found some stuff that he'd been doing so he was really defensive. And so I took the kids, we spent the night in a hotel because I knew he was coming home. Like is this something that's happened before or is this like... Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, we've been...
We've had to leave and go to hotels just so he calms down or something. We've done that before. What is it that motivates him doing this kind of stuff? Does he say one? He just goes nuts sometimes. This time I caught him cheating and I had evidence and I told him about it. But I just left with the kids because I didn't want them in all the drama.
The officer explained to Laurie that Charles had filed a psych hold on her, and that meant they had no choice but to send her to a psychiatric institution.
named Community Bridges, or CBI, for an evaluation. They can hold you for 24, 48, however long they deem it necessary to get you evaluated, based off just what your husband says. So doctors play it safe. I just think it's funny because he's trying to tell me to slow down. That's very smart. Because I'm really the one that did something wrong.
But here's the thing is I don't know, and I'm not going to take sides, but just talking to you, I mean, I don't see you being a danger to yourself or anybody else. You got your kids to school. Right. I don't know, but I'm not going to play side. I'm just going to let you know that we are required if you're here that we will, even against with fours if we have to, if you're still here when it's approved, we'll have to take you to CDI.
They had to do it. That's what the law required. But the cop also said Lori didn't seem like a danger to herself or others. No, Lori seemed rational, normal, nice. She had her daughter and a close friend there to back her up. Was it strategy?
Well, if Laurie knew what Charles would say about her, she might also know that it would sound too crazy to be believed. And that in turn would mean that Charles was the one telling lies, breaking into the house in the middle of the night, making the whole family hide out in a hotel. Laurie got them to see an opposite image, like a negative from a film camera.
Like one of those pictures in which you can see, you know, either two men or a vase, depending on how you look at it. It's an illusion, a trick. Charles wasn't a concerned parent, afraid for the sanity of a spouse and his own safety. No, he was a husband stalking his wife, a cheater, a man who goes into rages. Might be hard not to believe Laurie. She is good.
So maybe it was understandable that the officer gave the charming Lori a little advice on avoiding the psych evaluation. We don't bust down doors to get you, but we will knock. So if you see police officers knocking, talk to them through the door if you really don't want to talk.
If you want a free medical evaluation, psychological evaluation. I was going to say, I haven't gotten any sleep in about three days. They have good facilities. They do, actually, from what I understand. And a gym where I can work out. Yeah, so, like I said, we... You'll be okay without your mom. You are going to get a padded room. I know what you might be thinking. What would have happened if Lori did have that psych evaluation? Would this whole story have ended differently?
Well, I have news for you. Lori did end up submitting to a psych evaluation, and she passed with flying colors. But did you ever think she wouldn't? Lori walked out of that psych ward with a clean bill of health, and nobody listened to Charles. So how does she pose a threat to your children? I don't know what she's going to do with them. I don't know if she's going to flee with them, if she's going to hurt them. Okay.
She said that she would murder you through a spiritual... No, she said, I can murder you. I can murder you. And she's talking in a spiritual... I will kill you. Spiritual... No, she talks in physically, I will kill you because you're not Charles and nobody will care. Nobody listened until it was too late.
The afternoon after Charles was killed, Lori called her eldest son, Colby, to tell him the news. I'm at work, normal day, middle of the day. My mom calls me and she says that Charles had a heart attack. So I remember the feeling just of immediate drop feeling like a roller coaster. Yeah. Had a heart attack and was dead. Yeah. That would be a horrible shock. Yeah.
And there it was, the lie to her own son. Of course, there was no heart attack. Charles was shot to death, two bullets in the chest. And I'm thinking that he just passed away in front of them. So I'm like, I'm just freaking out. I'm asking her questions. And she just like sounded like, like really monotone. But like, I'm just emotional too. So I just was freaking out. I remember I hung up with her. I had to finish working.
I got off at like seven o'clock. I remember I just called her and I was like, okay, can I just come over? I just want to see Tylee. I want to see you, JJ, everybody. Like, I just want to be there for you. So I thought everything was taken care of, obviously. And I just was like, I just wanted to know what the plan was, figure everything out. I come over, Tylee answers the door, hugs me. She's really short. She's just like on my stomach and just starts bawling her eyes out.
And I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, like immediately that emotion hit me. So I'm like trying to like not cry. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do like emotionally. So I just hold her and then I walk in, there's the kitchen and I see Alex and he has a bandage on his head and he just says, hey, Colts or something like that. And I'm like, where's mom? So she's outside. So I walk outside, go by the pool. She's on the phone. She hangs up.
And I'm like, okay, what is going on? Like, what's the plan? What do we do? Are you okay? Are the kids okay? And she kind of hesitated and then just tells me about this fight. She starts telling me about a fight and explains it and then tells me that he was shot. And that feeling, like, I've never felt that before. I've never felt such a rush of, like, anger, sadness. I mean, everything you can feel in that moment,
Happened right there. How did she portray this fight? Is it something that Charles started and it was nothing could be done? Yeah, they got in a huge fight and it just escalated. Him and Al got into it. A bat was brought into it. Al got hit and then he came out and shot him. Self-defense. Does that make sense to you at the time? I've just said this from the beginning, like...
I just don't understand why you took his life. If you bring a gun out, there's no way I'm bringing... It's not a lightsaber. I'm not going to, like, come at you still with a bat if you have a gun. It's important to note, Laurie has not been charged with any crime related to Charles' death. Alex wasn't charged either, for that matter. Nevertheless, Kay and Larry believe that there was a reason why all this happened. A simple reason, as old as greed.
She wanted an insurance policy. It was premeditated, and there is no doubt about that. Charles had a million dollar life insurance policy, and she believed she was the beneficiary. So, shortly after Charles was shot to death, Lori filed a claim. But she didn't realize he changed the beneficiary. Thing was, Lori was once the beneficiary.
But after that episode, when she canceled Charles' flight and took his truck, Charles got wise. He changed things. Now all the money went to Kay to take care of JJ. Imagine the surprise. Kay said Lori was enraged. She is pissed off that the last communication from her, she took a picture of the change of beneficiary form naming me.
And she said, five kids and no insurance money, and his sister gets everything. That was the last, that was it. Never heard from her again. My, my.
As Democrats unite around Vice President Harris, they'll gather in Chicago to endorse their presidential ticket. A new era is here. It is go time. Stay with MSNBC for insights and analysis. The race is going to be close. Everybody should prepare themselves for that. Plus reporting on the ground from the convention hall. Extraordinary levels of enthusiasm from Democrats for the fight ahead. The Democratic National Convention. Special coverage this week on MSNBC.
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The day of the shooting, Colby stayed at Laurie's for 45 minutes. He showed up to comfort the family, thinking Charles had died of natural causes. And then he learned the truth, or at least part of it. Things felt bad. I want it out. If I'm being honest...
When she told me that, I felt like my head just was ringing. People were talking to me, like Tylee was talking to me. Alex said a couple of things, and I just like, I was not there. I just, I couldn't wait to leave. But I also felt responsible for Tylee because JJ was asleep. And I'm just like shocked. I feel like I still have that like shock. Just, it's like, what do you do? I didn't know what to do, and I felt responsible. Tough place to be. Now when you look back on it, do you wish you hadn't left?
Or would it have made any difference? If I'm being honest, I wish I never went over there. I really like that moment. I don't even know. I don't know how it affected me. Like I just immediately like from that point until now, I've had this feeling in the back, like just unease. And that was just the first. It's like that was the first major step into all this stuff when you look back at it. That happened and then just downhill from there.
A couple of weeks after Charles' death, Colby's still reeling. Lori called him on the phone, said, "'We're moving.'"
I remember just thinking, like, she told me that they were moving, like, they wanted to move. So I'm thinking, okay, well, they'll just move houses. Because I was like, why would you want to stay in the house? Just honestly. Yeah, sure. Like, that's a horrible place for all of, like, a horrible memory for you. And you just should move. And I'm thinking, you know, around Chandler, Gilbert, somewhere near us, right? Yeah. And next thing you know, she's like, I'm moving somewhere cold. And I can't really tell you where I'm going right now. Somewhere cold? Why so mysterious? Weird. Weird.
Colby did see his family one last time the day they left.
I talked to her the day that they came to see me, which was August 30th. I saw them physically. And then I FaceTimed them later that night. Your mom and JJ and Tylee. Yeah. So I saw my mom, JJ and Tylee in the car. And then later that night, I FaceTimed Tylee. And she was with JJ. And it was just totally normal. And I think I remember asking them, like, are you guys sad? Like, are you okay? Because she was crying in the car when I saw her.
And so she was crying about what? No, I don't. That's it's like when I go back on it, I don't understand anything because there's just no like connection to something. Like why was Tali so upset? I thought she was upset because all of her friends were in Arizona, all of her best friends. She had such a big life. And it's like, here we go again. We're moving. So that's what I'm like at that meeting.
It was bizarre, troubling for sure, but Colby had had enough of the antics.
That being Laurie's son was like living near a fault line. Tornado alley. A hurricane zone. Instability. Trauma. Death. Enough was enough. Colby had his own life to live. He was just starting to grow his own little family. Be the father he never had. So when Laurie wouldn't tell Colby where they'd moved, Colby didn't push her.
I think that after what happened with Charles, after everything, I just kind of wanted out. I just kind of wanted to be like, "Okay, you know what? You're in charge." And I just need you to... I remember saying, "Take care of the kids and make sure that they're safe and please give them a base. Give them somewhere to settle and give them a house and just stay there." Did she seem somehow like she was center of chaos or something?
At that point, it was enough chaos. Having Charles be gone, having them move was a lot at that point. And from the day Charles died, it turned into turbo and just kept getting worse. Oh, yes. From then on, everything got much darker. Colby didn't know that this would be the last time he'd see his brother and sister. Next time on Mommy Doomsday...
So, Tylee was a zombie because she was a difficult teenager. Correct. Why was JJ a zombie? So, he became a zombie the day before I arrived. So, I arrived on a Thursday of that weekend, and she said he became one Wednesday. And the reason why I believe he became a zombie, my own internal thoughts, I think he was in the way. And I think that's why he became a zombie. And what happens to zombies? Seems like they are dying.
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