209. Navigating post-graduation blues ft. Therapist Liz Kelly 42:17

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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode, as we of course, break down the psychology of our 20s.

If our 20s could be summarized in any way, I think we could best describe them as the decade of transition. So much about who we are, what we like, our environment, our identity, our relationships as well are in this state of flux. And a lot of that is caused by the very concrete milestones we face. And a huge one for those of us who went on to go to college or university is graduation.

For me, when I was at university, it still very much felt like an extension of my high school and teenage years. And adulthood was kind of creeping up into the picture on the sidelines and

And even though I had a job, even though I was in what felt like a very adult relationship and I had bills, uni was this weird vacuum where I still felt like I had a lot of permission to figure things out and be slightly chaotic. But the further you get into it, the more, like I said, adult life creeps in and then suddenly you've just blinked and you are walking across the stage and you are getting your diploma. And it kind of feels like at that moment you should have all the answers or at least a

a few more than you had when you first started. But for so many of us, that is the exact opposite. We have no idea what we want to do. We feel increasingly lonely. And sometimes we even get caught up in the nostalgia of those years and what they offered. And I really want to talk about it today. So I'm bringing on a wonderful guest to discuss the psychology of the post-graduation blues. Welcome, Liz. Tell the audience about yourself a little bit.

Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to talk with you today. Yes, I am a therapist in the Washington, D.C. area, and I'm the author of the book, This Book is Cheaper Than Therapy, A No-Nonsense Guide to Improving Your Mental Health.

And I work with a lot of young people in their 20s who are just getting out of college and entering the world. And, you know, they're coming to this exciting place, Washington, D.C., but it's not always that easy. Oh, my gosh. I can absolutely imagine. Like Washington, D.C. especially. I feel like a lot of the people who would be going there would be so ambitious as well. Absolutely. Yeah. So I work with so many incredible people.

People who are smart and ambitious, but these same qualities can

It can also be challenging when you come to a place like DC where there's so many different options of things to do. And it's hard to kind of figure out what your niche is and where you want to go. And so I feel really privileged to be able to work with so many amazing clients to be able to talk about some of these issues. And, you know, what I find really, really valuable about that is like, I'm sure there are like some smart cookies in Washington who are like,

ready to take on politics in the world. And the fact that what we're talking about today still comes up is just a real testament to how universal this is. And what we're talking about is the post-graduation blues. Can you kind of speak to what that actually is? I feel like it's in the name, but maybe you can give like a bit more color to it.

Right. Absolutely. So in my training as a therapist, I have a lot of experience in working with the grief and loss and bereavement. So I often look at the post-graduation blues through the lens of loss. So grief is a natural reaction to anything that you cherish or anything that you love. And for a lot of us going to college and going to university, I mean, it's a really amazing experience where with

We get to talk about big ideas. We get to learn about really interesting things and have all these new experiences and live in this area where there's a lot of options for exploring things.

hobbies and social interaction and all of these things. So, you know, it's for many of us, not to say that there aren't challenges, but for many of us, it's such a good experience. And then all of a sudden after graduation, we're leaving that behind. And that's a real loss. And anytime you have change plus loss, chances are you're going to experience some feelings of grief. Oh my gosh, absolutely. And it's this sense of like emptiness, right? Like you cherished, as you said, something

so highly and it may not have been a person or even anything material but just like a state of being like a time in your life that felt so free and so exciting and I think like a big reason why we experience like post-graduation blues is just like it's just this sense of like time is moving on

And I have to change with that. So what are some of like the big feelings to like define this transition? Absolutely. So grief can involve things like, so grief, sometimes people think that grief is an emotion, but grief isn't actually an emotion. Grief is a whole range of feelings. So it can involve sadness, disappointment, regrets, frustration, irritability, numbness. So it can,

Reef can really be a roller coaster. And this roller coaster is pretty common in the post-graduation blues. You know, one day you might feel like you have it all together and you're excited about your future and you're excited about the possibilities. You know, the next day you might be feeling a lot of anxiety because you're unsure of when you're going to get a job or how you're going to pay off debt from university or, you

who you're going to live with. So it can really feel unsettling because it is this writing this rollercoaster of emotions. And I love that metaphor because that is exactly how I felt when I first graduated uni. And it's like, it was a while ago, but I just remember one day I would wake up and be like, oh my gosh, like I am so young. I'm so excited for my future. I could do anything. And then the next day I'd be like, I'm absolutely paralyzed by the fact that I do not have this figured out. And everyone around me

does. Do you think that like that comparison kind of plays a role? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, because every time we talk to someone else, you know, we're not getting the whole picture. If you see someone post something on LinkedIn or social media or Instagram or wherever, you know, you're, you're only seeing a very small snapshot to that person's life and, and what you're seeing might look incredible and amazing, but chances are there's a

so many other factors. And I talk to a lot of clients and some of these clients from the outside seem like they have the perfect job and the perfect life, but that doesn't mean that everything feels perfect for them. No, I speak about this so much and it seems so obvious, right? If I sat down with somebody, a friend of mine and said, hey, did you know that like what you see on social media isn't real? They'd be like, yeah, of course, Gemma, of course I know that. But really actually,

think about it in like the deep parts of yourself, like really hold that information because it's very easy to be like, yeah, that's not real. But do you actually believe it? Do you actually believe it to the point where you are no longer comparing yourself to it? And

Again, back to my experience, LinkedIn was enemy number one to me when I was job hunting and I was trying to sort things out because the other component of social media and LinkedIn and those sites is that it is about self-promotion, right?

Right. The whole premise is to look your best because people want to look their best for their friends and for people they know, but also for like future connections and like, you know, future bosses. So there is like this whole aspect of it that is performative and we just don't see it. Right. Absolutely. We see like the perfectly honest.

touched up headshot and the, you know, recent job title and all of these things. And we're not, we're not seeing the struggles that it took to get there or the whole picture behind the scenes. Yeah. And bringing it back to like post-graduation, I feel like it's this huge, sometimes like separation between a lot of, a lot of people,

having some part of their future sorted out or at least seeming like they do. And then there's like other side of people just absolutely having no idea. And it does feel like, you know, like the further you get out of school, the more pressure it is to like conform and the more pressure it is to like have like

an answer. What about like that ambiguity is so distressing? That's such a good, a good point because I've been thinking about my clients for some of them who even find their, their quote unquote perfect job. And then they're in their perfect job and it doesn't feel the way they thought it would feel or that it works more challenging that they, than they thought it would feel.

And I think we have all this pressure more than ever to kind of find our niche, right? You know, so many of us were, it was drummed into us, you know, find your passion, find your passion. And that's an incredibly difficult thing to do in this world where there's so many options, there's so many choices.

So what I encourage my clients rather than to find your passion to to follow your curiosity, because the more curious you are about things and the more you learn about something, the more passionate you're going to become. But, you know, finding your passion is such you know, that's such a heavy burden to bear because that's just not an easy thing to do. Oh, no, it literally is not. And it's also sometimes accidental.

right like it is one of those things that when you go looking for it you never find it it's like love do you know what I mean right and so it's like you kind of have to do a lot of trial and error but when it's like you're so used to the structured environment of schooling where it's like yes there is like a timeline for everything there is this ultimate goal that you're always working towards that like

it is a privilege to be able to explore the privilege to have choices feels very daunting. You know, I'm sure like a lot of your clients come to you and are like, Oh, maybe I should go back and do my masters or something like that. Do you think that sometimes we find a lot of comfort in like that structure and that's why we want to return to school or like, that's why we find ourselves like drawn back to those environments? Yeah.

Right. Absolutely. I think when we get uncertain or unsteady, we crave stability and we crave security and safety. And for some, they think, well, I'll get my master's or I'll go back to school because then I can have that safety and security again, at least for a little while. Yeah. And then it just puts you in like so much more debt. Right. Exactly. But really, it's just sort of postmodernism.

postponing that insecurity or that instability. And I think for some of us, or a lot of work with my clients involves getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and getting more comfortable being

you know, sitting with discomfort, right. You know, sitting with the fact that like, it's okay that I don't have it all figured out. It's okay that I don't know where I'm going to be in five years or 10 years, or it's okay that I don't know exactly what I want my career to look like. And if we can kind of get to that place, it becomes easier to tolerate. And I really liked that point of like, I think once the discomfort becomes easier to tolerate, it's less of a factor in your decision-making.

Right. Have you found that like once people are comfortable, they actually find it easier to be like, yeah, I can commit to something or I can like be more open to opportunity. Exactly. I think it takes sitting, being able to sit with discomfort makes it easier to take that first step. Because I think when we're, when we're so afraid of being uncomfortable, we're sort of looking for the perfect thing or it's really easy to kind of shut down. Right. But if,

But what we want to do is be able to take baby steps, right? And be able to say to ourselves, like, I don't have it all figured out, but this job seems interesting. Or I like doing these types of tasks, or I'm curious about this field and being able to just take those tiny steps that are going to gradually lead us in the direction of where we want to go personally, professionally. Yeah. And it's like chasing curiosity instead of chasing like perfection and chasing like security. Yeah.

Right. It's like, I don't actually need to have it all figured out. That's not my criteria for saying yes. Like my criteria for saying yes is not that this needs to be part of like a huge lifelong plan. It's like, is this like something that I'm excited by right now? Right. Exactly. So, okay. The loss of like that academic structured environment is a huge component.

But another huge part, which I honestly think is like a bigger element of this. And I feel like you know what I'm going to say, but it's like relationships, right? It's friendships. And, you know, I went to like a university that a lot of people came from out of state to come to, which is not very common in Australia, but I'm sure I think in the US and other places it is more common. And there was like this period of like six months after I graduated of like a mass exodus.

where everyone just like dispersed. And I think that really like contributed to a lot of the stress. Why do you think it is that, you know, those loss of relationships can be so uncomfortable, even if we know it's going to happen? Well, college or university, you know, your whole life up until that point, you've always been together with a group of peers. You've always had a group of people in similar circumstances and similar age and

And now all of a sudden, like you, you lose that. And that's what, that's again, kind of coming back to the loss. That's a really big loss of just not having a large group of people who are all going through similar circumstances. You know, then all of a sudden you're in your first job and you're working with people of all different ages or you're back at home and you're with your family and it's, and, and it just doesn't feel the same. There's, and even if you're still staying in touch with your friends, you're,

You know, you don't get to see them for lunch every day or you don't get to study with them every afternoon. And so these changes in your routine can really be hard to adjust to. Oh, I totally found that in my circumstances. It was like the shift from having they were part of my routine, right? They're part of our errands. They're part of our daily lives. I would see them like every single day, sometimes multiple times a day.

because we lived so close, everybody was doing the same thing. And now it's like the shift to a lot of long distance friendships. That's a huge one. But then also it's like this fragmentation where it's like, okay, some of us are traveling and some of my friends are like moved back home with their parents and some of them are getting married and some of them are doing their masters or unemployed. And

there is no longer this like I think shared touch point the shared thing that we're all going through which is uni which is college which is like school so it's like you know I'm sure you obviously know this but it's like one of the biggest things is like similarity of experiences do you see a lot of your clients not just like you know it's not just that they feel like they're no longer in touch with their friends but they're losing them all together

Absolutely. I also see my clients go through, maybe the way to put it is like friendship drift where relationships are kind of grow apart and they still treasure that time that they had in school together, but they just aren't as close and the relationship maybe doesn't feel the same. Or if they have a reunion a year later, it just doesn't feel the way they expected it to feel. And some friendships even end and more, you know,

or people grow apart. And that doesn't mean that anybody's done anything wrong or,

that you made a mistake. It just, this happens sometimes. And I try to encourage my clients to think about the fact that even if a friendship drifts apart or even if it ends, it doesn't mean that the time you had together in university wasn't meaningful. That's relationships still could have been incredibly meaningful for that time and for your development and for what you learned about like yourself and the world. But sometimes friendships do change over time.

What advice would you have for people going through that? Because I feel like it's normally not just one, right? It's normally like a group of people or it's a whole like system that, not system, but like a whole friendship structure that kind of falls apart. So what advice would you have for somebody experiencing that? So...

My first advice would be to name and accept what you're feeling. So if you're feeling loss or sadness or disappointment or frustration, to be able to name it and be able to accept it without judgment and be able to say, like, I'm feeling really sad right now and that's okay.

Because sometimes what happens is we'll feel sad or we'll feel disappointed, but then we'll shame ourselves for having that feeling. Right. Like we'll say, you know, I'm feeling sad, but I shouldn't feel sad because I've got so much going for me or other people have it worse. And then we then now we feel guilty and sad, which doesn't help anybody. Right. So, you know, being able to acknowledge and accept your feelings and without judging them, that can help the feeling kind of move through you a little bit more quickly. Right.

And by kind of accepting those emotions and also learning to hold two emotions at the same time can be really important. You know, I'm feeling sad and I'm also feeling excited about the possibilities. You know, both of those things can be true at the same time. And once we can kind of start to interact with our feelings differently, that frees us up to be able to take small actions of,

Like, you know, maybe tomorrow I'm going to study at a new coffee shop or I'm going to job hunt at a new coffee shop or I'm going to, you know, ask that person to meet up for a walk or so we can start to reestablish and create new relationships.

Yeah. And it's like, not just holding to emotions, but holding to truths. Yes. Like, you know, like this friendship is changing, but like you said, it doesn't mean that it's not still valuable. It doesn't mean that we don't still have some form of a relationship. And that was something that a lot of my, you know, my own experiences really taught me with like the post-graduation blues was like,

So much is changing. And sometimes I think it feels like it demands you to make big decisions. Like, okay, me and this person aren't connecting anymore. Well, they're not my friend. Like blank, blank slate, blank space. Like they're not my friend. This is all too much. And just to cut people off or to feel very like emotional. And I think it is important to yet again, be able to recognize not just what you had, but what they still offer you just in a lesser capacity and

And nothing is, I say this to people all the time and to myself all the time, nothing is ever going to come close to the relationship that you have with your university or your college friends, especially if you lived in the same house with them, especially if you lived in the same dorm or in the same like sorority or fraternity house. Like that is an incredibly heightened artificial way of like

being around people, right? Like you do not see that anywhere else maybe than like marriage. And so you might not find relationships that are as close and as like intense, but you might find people who like fit better with who you are now. Does that make sense? I love that. Yeah. To be willing to adapt and be okay with feelings.

With relationships that don't feel the same as they did when you were in university. Yeah, because it's intense. Like,

Yeah. It's so intense, right? It's incredibly artificial to have that level of like contact. You get to know people really quickly and you know so much about them and you know their routines and it just doesn't always happen when you're after graduation. Yeah. Cause who has time to like spend every day together, right? Cause you're at work. Sometimes you're at multiple jobs and you have, you know, people meet their partners. That's a big one I think that comes with like post-graduation blues is like

the shift from having a wide group of friends to maybe having, you know, your partner who often comes first and then the friends around that. And it's just like a whole relational shift. So we're going to take a break now, but when we come back, I want to talk to you about how we can cope with that shift, how we can embrace fear and some of your advice.

Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's and I'm Guillermo Diaz. And now we're back with another season of our podcast, unpacking the toolbox where Guillermo and I will be rewatching the show to officially unpack season three of scandal. Unpredictable. You don't see it coming. It's a wild, wild ride. The twists and turns in season three mesmerizing, but

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I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words. Yeah.

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So when it comes to post-graduation blues, this might be an impossible question, but as a therapist, how long do you typically see it lasting? That is a challenging question because I

Post-graduation blues, like I mentioned before, it's very similar to grief and grief is going to be very individual. It's going to depend on that person's circumstances. It's going to depend on how they've handled losses before. It's going to depend on their support systems. But I would say if the post-graduation blues are really impacting your ability to function properly,

you know, after a couple of weeks or after a month or so, or, I mean, I mean, honestly, if you're suffering and it's really impacting your ability to function, you know, don't hesitate to reach out for support, whether that's individual therapy or group therapy can actually be really fantastic because you get the benefits of therapy, but you're also healing in a group, which can have

unique benefits. There's also really great books out there on self-development, you know, but I would really encourage folks that if they are having a hard time

And it's really impacting their ability to job search or to engage in self-care or their sleep suffering or they're not eating well or they're drinking too much or engaging. You've really relying on mood altering substances. You know, that might be a sign that that, OK, I've got to get some support. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I feel like it's those are like all big things.

you know, big indicators that there is a level of coping that perhaps you're not adjusting to and that's totally okay. It's a huge change. But I do feel like if like after a year you're still being, you're still thinking about, oh, like I wish I was back there. There's such a deep sense of longing of like I would give anything to have that again or always reminiscing, not being able to move on.

I feel like most of the time those feelings should fade by that timeline, right? Like amongst the people around me, it was, you know, everyone still has those moments of being like, wow, like I really miss the structure of uni and I miss my friends and I miss like my life. But after like a year, it's kind of like, well, now I kind of like my new life. At that point, I would love to see someone investing in their new life and setting up new goals and

and figuring out other things that they, that can bring them excitement and joy and meaning. Yeah. It's like, you've had the time to mourn hopefully. And then you've had the, like the time to also perhaps be a little bit more proactive and also just settle, just settle in hard emotions. Like, I feel like that is a part of, I feel like, you

you know, I'm guilty of doing this as well, where it's always like, what can you be doing actively to like help yourself and to heal and to move forward? It's like, sometimes it is just time and it's just like feeling again, comfortable with the discomfort. Right. Right. And, and also accepting that there's going to be a part of you that is going to miss university forever. That that's

that that grief is going to be there because you really cared about that time of your life. And that was a really meaningful time of your life. And there is going to be a small part of you or a part of you that's going to, that is going to forever miss that. And that's okay. The reason that it's that you miss it is because it was, it was important to you. I really like that sentiment. What kind of strategies or coping mechanisms do,

do you think that recent graduates can use to kind of manage the feelings of uncertainty, anxiety, but also nostalgia and the grief as you spoke about? Right.

So I always encourage my clients if they're not feeling right, they know that their mental health isn't where they want it to be to really pay attention to the basics. And those are things like, you know, try to move your body every day in some way, drink water, get outside, pay attention to sleep.

Be really mindful about alcohol use because that can intensify feelings of anxiety and depression. So start with the basics and make sure you're getting some social outlets or some outlets to be creative.

So that's a great place to start. I would also suggest that kind of like we talked about too, to start to learn how to engage with your emotions a little bit differently, to start to name what you're feeling, to accept what you're feeling, don't judge what you're feeling. And also really pay attention to your inner dialogue because sometimes the way we talk to ourselves can be incredibly harsh and critical and mean sometimes.

So I really encourage my clients to pay attention to how they're talking to themselves and just and to ask themselves, you know, what would I tell a good friend? You know, what what advice would I give them? And and to try to start treating themselves like they're a friend.

I love that advice. And I say that to people all the time where it's like, it's so much easier to be kind and to be compassionate and to be forgiving to other people and never as easy to do it to ourselves. So it's like, okay, if your best friend came to you and was like, I'm really worried that I'm never going to find my dream job.

What would you say to them? You would probably say like, maybe your dream job doesn't exist yet. Maybe it's going to take some time. Maybe it isn't about what a dream job, maybe it's about the life you create outside of work. Like there is so much wisdom that we save for other people that is, would be so valuable for ourselves. I always find that I, and the other thing I always say is like, especially with anxiety, anxiety and excitement feel very similar.

like you would they have like the same true don't they have like the same physiological like physical

Yeah. You know, your hands start getting a bit sweaty and get those butterflies in your stomach. Yeah. The physical symptoms of anxiety are really similar to excitement. Yeah. And so I'm always like, okay, yeah, that feeling could be anxiety. Like you're anxious about finding your own way. You're anxious about feeling lost or anxious about feeling lonely, or you could be excited about the fact that you don't, now you don't have this huge time commitment anymore.

Now, like you could go traveling. Now you do have more freedom to progress in your career rather than waiting to graduate before you really like get started. Now you do have time to really choose friends that are really important, you know, that are maybe more suited to that part of your life that you're in rather than just like convenient, as hard as that sounds. And more time to just like see yourself

life beyond education because I really find that what's so tricky about post-graduation is it is the first time ever that we are not within an educational environment we think this is our first time spending more than like four months since out of school and

Like that is going to be scary. It's like a zoo animal like finally being released into the wild, right? Yeah, I have a lot of clients who really struggle with not receiving regular feedback because their whole life is

going through school, going through university, they at every quarter, every assignment, every, at the end of every semester, at the end of every year, they knew exactly where they stood. They got a grade or they got a, you know, marks on a paper, or they got feedback from their professor, from their teacher. And now they're in this, in the work world or their job hunting, and there's no regular feedback. There's no

clear indicator of like, how am I doing? And that's incredibly hard not to get that. And some of my work with clients involves learning how to give ourselves feedback and how to reflect on like, what am I proud of? Or what did I do well today? And that's not easy because for our entire lives up until that point, we've been getting feedback in an academic setting.

that now that you've said that, it's just like really hit me because I see that in so many people around me and like people who message me and people who are like my friends. And you're totally right. How do we know that we're doing a good job? We have absolutely no like parameter for it. We have no way of providing ourselves with the validation ourselves. And that's like crazy. How do you suggest people like

check in with themselves and give feedback to themselves. So one, one activity to try, if you're interested in journaling, or even if you're not that into journaling, but, but just want to jot a few things down at the end of the day, but to ask yourself at the end of the day, you know, what were my wins? You know, what am I proud of? And your wins don't have to be huge. It doesn't have to be like, I got a job, you know, it could be your win could be, I'm

I went on a walk today. I updated my resume. I met a friend for coffee. I cleaned my kitchen. I mean, your wins could be anything, but just things that you're proud of that you did that created some positive momentum and to spend some time reflecting on those things and even writing them down.

because it's so incredibly easy to look at our to-do list and to think, oh my gosh, I have so many more things that I, so many things I didn't get to, or I have so much more I need to do. And then we forget to actually take stock of what we actually did. And it's important to give ourselves credit for those things and to reflect on what we are achieving. Oh, absolutely. And the other thing is like,

actually make goals for the next year because a lot of the time you end up meeting them and I know that sounds wild but once you have made it obviously the goals cannot be like I want to be a millionaire by 2025 because that's not achievable but if you were like yeah I really want to have a job by this time next year I really want to have a thousand dollars in savings whatever it is

you will often find that there will come a point where you will get to look back at that entry and be like, okay, I actually did that. And there is a sense of pride there that feels very similar to the pride you would get when you got an A or when you completed something like an assignment or an exam, right?

Um, it might not be the same in the same environment. It might not be of the same, like the same stakes, but I feel like also our baseline for what feels like an achievement also kind of decreases in a sense as well. Right. Yeah. I love that being able to set realistic goals and get that sense of accomplishment when you meet that goal or when you take action towards that goal. Yeah.

Well, that really leads to my next question. You've provided me with the segue, which is, you know, if you are a racing graduate, how do you set realistic goals and expectations about yourself and your life during this transitional period? How do you stop yourself from

from setting the, I want to be a millionaire goal or I want to be a CEO goal? So one thing I encourage my clients to do is to take a look at their values and just spend some time identifying what their values are, because that can help them

shape what goals they want to achieve. For example, if they value travel, then that might impact what types of goals they set, or if they value community, or if they value financial stability. Once you identify your values, that can really help be a guidepost for

setting goals that are going to be in line with what you want and are going to be realistic. Also, I just want to throw out there too, that if you set an ambitious goal and you don't need it, that's okay. Maybe you've got part of the way there. So I think it's okay to, you know, if you don't meet your goal, that's not the worst thing, worst thing in the world, because chances are you, you definitely made progress.

And you know what, this might sound a little bit wild to say, but there are a lot of people out there who never would have dreamed of even setting that goal, who never would have even thought it possible to suggest that to themselves. So it's pretty amazing that you were that ambitious in the first place. It shows a lot of gusto. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that I always think about is what's the rush?

Like what's the rush? You know, what, like the, well, the average age to graduate in the US is 22, 22? Yeah, that sounds about right. 21, 22, somewhere in that range. That's wild to me because that is so young.

That is so young. There's a lot of life to live. Yeah. And I'm sure you're probably, you would probably look at some of those people and then like, you are, you're a child. Like you, I wish I was that young again. Like you have no idea. There's so much time. And I always talk about like the seasons of life and like, you are at like, you are in like season one of your like 21 part TV series. Like you are only just beginning. There are so many relationships and so much,

character development to happen, like so many plot twists. Don't you want to save some of the best things for a little while later? Like if you achieved everything you wanted within the next like two to three years, what's next? Yeah. And you bring up such a good point. Something I see a lot with my clients is a frustration where they really want to do meaningful work. But oftentimes your first job out of college or university is

the tasks that you're going to be given may not feel that meaningful, that they might feel kind of boring or inconsequential and, and being able to have patience to realize that this is a stepping stone and this is a way to get experience. And this is a way to learn what you do like in a work environment and what you don't like in a work environment. Like all of this is really valuable information that you're going to use in the future. And to be okay,

okay with the fact that this isn't a perfect fit right now, but you're getting this information that's going to help you in your next step, get you closer and closer to what you really want to be doing. I love that point because I think that's something that I rarely speak about on the show. It is the drive, not just for money, but for purpose and for meaning.

And we are like such a lucky generation that that is something that we could, we understand is like on the cards for us, right? Like the choice of meaningful work is something that we do have available to us. But sometimes you don't know what your mission is yet. And there is an experience waiting for you in that dead end job or waiting for you in that internship or in that graduate role that is like,

the point where you turn over the page and if you go out looking for meaning straight away you're going to actually end up missing the thing that would have provided you with that gateway so it's kind of like just take the experiences for what they are in a way like take the experiences for what they might be leading you to like not everything is the final destination

That's like, exactly. I think that's for everything. I want to wrap up by asking you for one final piece of advice or some words of wisdom that you would get, you would give to somebody listening right now who has graduated maybe in the last six months, last year, who was like, I have no idea what I am doing. What would you, what would you say to them? I would encourage them to practice self-compassion.

So self-compassion was developed by Dr. Kristen Neff, and it's a really wonderful concept because she talks a lot about how we've been taught to chase self-esteem. But self-esteem often really involves how we stack up against other people, and it involves external accomplishments and checking the boxes. And so self-esteem is going to rise and fall depending on what's going on in our world and how we're stacking up against other people.

Self-compassion, on the other hand, is more about the relationship that we have with ourselves. And it's about treating ourselves like a friend, like we talked about earlier. And it's about really offering ourselves some compassion and some grace. And when you start to practice self-compassion, some really wonderful things can happen. It's much easier to maintain motivation because you're not getting completely defeated when you get a curveball.

So I really want people to start paying attention to how they're treating themselves and how they're talking to themselves and to treat themselves with self-compassion. I love that. What's one way that somebody could show themselves some self-compassion after listening to this? One way to show yourself self-compassion is that if you're feeling frustrated or disappointed or you feel like you've made a mistake,

is to ask yourself, you know, what would I say to a friend? What would I say to someone else? And to take that advice for yourself. You know, for example, if I do some writing and it doesn't turn out well or it doesn't get well received, you know, to ask myself, well, what would I say to a friend? And I might say to a friend like, hey, you can't be perfect all the time or, you know, you're trying or the next one's going to be better. And that'll keep you moving so that you can figure out what your next step's going to be.

Yeah, I often like thinking about it as well as like your childhood self is still very much alive and present within you, like show them the kindness that you would show them if they were right in front of you right now.

So thank you so much for all of your wisdom, for all of your free wisdom on this topic of post-graduation blues. I really appreciate you coming on. Oh my gosh, this has been so much fun. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful talking with you. Oh my gosh, me too. I feel like I was unlocking so much of my own experiences that I hadn't thought about in like quite a while. So where can they find you? Where can the listeners find you, your book?

more of your advice? So you can find me on my website. So it's Liz Kelly, msw.com. And I'm also on Instagram at real.life.mental.wellness. No, that's a little bit of a mouthful. But I can also send you everything if you want to be able to link it to the show. Yeah, I'll do that. And thank you so much as well. Wait, mention your book and your book as well.

Yes. And so my book is called This Book is Cheaper Than Therapy, A No-Nonsense Guide to Improving Your Mental Health. It has tools that I share with my clients every day. It's really the basics of my version of Mental Health 101, the basics of mental health. And you can find that wherever you'd like to buy books. There's also an audio version and an electronic version too. Look at that, accessible. And also we love an audio book because you can listen to it like you're listening to this podcast. Yeah.

Thank you so much again for coming on. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now. If you have a friend, a sibling,

I don't know, an acquaintance who has just graduated and might need to hear this, send them a link. I'm sure they would appreciate the amazing advice and words of wisdom from our guest. And of course, make sure you're following along and send me any episode suggestions, feedback, thoughts, feelings, qualms on Instagram at that psychology podcast. Until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle with yourself, and we will talk soon.

Hi, I'm Katie Lowes. And I'm Guillermo Diaz. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also, we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for an even more behind-the-scenes Scandal.

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