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Hi there, it's Claire McCaskill from MSNBC's newest podcast, How to Win 2024. I'm excited to share a special bonus episode breaking down last night's second Republican debate.
On How to Win, my co-host, Jen Palmieri, and I love talking politics. It's almost a felony how much we like to talk about politics. We love dissecting each new poll, getting into the nitty-gritty of the caucus circuit, and most importantly, strategizing about how to win an election.
So in the lead up to Election Day 2024, How to Win is going to be breaking down the campaign news and everything else that's going on behind the scenes, how the candidates are doing and what they should be doing to win. And we're not going to hold back. We might even use words we shouldn't use on TV.
Politics is a circus, so prepare to be entertained. Stay right here and listen to this special episode and search for How to Win 2024 wherever you're listening now and follow the series. Hello, I'm Jennifer Palmieri here with my fabulous co-host, former Senator Claire McCaskill. Welcome to another episode of How to Win 2024. Hello.
It's Thursday, September 28th, and today we're breaking down the highs, if there were any, and lows of last night's second Republican debate. But more importantly, because this podcast is about how to win in 2024, we're going to project forward to what does this actually mean for Biden's reelection? You're always looking for a way to get traction in a reelection. Reelects are hard. They're a grind. Does the debate offer Biden opportunity to do that?
Maybe impeachment does. Yeah. First of all, it was a train wreck. In fact, to call it a train wreck is being unkind to train wrecks. They have more dignity in some ways. Yeah. So we're going to talk about that.
And then I'm really excited to talk to our special guest today, Ron Klain, who has been in the room where it happens more times than he could count and has done high level debate prep for all three of the last Democratic nominees for president of the United States. So I'm anxious to get his take on the train wreck and also some talk about strategies going forward with the chaos that is the Republican Party right now.
I mean, he's known as sort of a policy guy because he was the chief of staff. He's one of the best political strategists I know, bar none. He's my first call always when I want to know what a smart person thinks about what should be happening in politics. First call, Ron Klain.
Our first guest. Yeah, he's going to be our first guest. Well, we can't forget Kaki Karnacki now. That's not kind to Steve. Yeah, but Kaki Karnacki's family. Yeah, that's true. That's even better. That's true. He's family. Ron is a special guest, so we'll have to clean up our language. I'll try not to use bad words while he is with us. And then after we have a chance to talk to Ron, we're going to have an opportunity to do the Spotlight, which we do every week here.
But this week, I think it's more accurate to call it the shadows. And we're going to talk a little bit about Bob Menendez and his gold bars and what the Democrats are going to do about it.
Yeah, and it's like, it's not a small matter. You might think it's a small matter about New Jersey. It's not. But anyway, there's a ton to talk about, so let's dive right in. Biggest fail on the trail from the debate in Simi Valley. Claire, you bet me a cheeseburger last week that Vivek Ramaswamy would be just as annoying as he was in the first debate. So what is it that you think I owe you now? Well, it may just be a slider. Um...
He was slightly less annoying than he was in the first debate. I mean, he was still a jerk, but he was not quite as bad. And
I think maybe he looked a little more sympathetic just because everybody was piling on him. Everybody figured out that it was time to take him out. And I do think he's done. I think he is the Andrew Yang of the Republican primary. And I think he is finished. And now it's just a matter of how much of his own money is he willing to spend to try to continue his 15 minutes. So he's the biggest fail?
No, I think the biggest fail was the debate itself. The fail on the trail this week formally goes to everybody at the kiddie table that was trying to be relevant last night, that was trying to be presidential. I don't know what they're doing, and we can talk to Ron about this. I can't figure out what the point is. Are they...
trying just to talk to donors? Are they trying just to talk to Iowa? I was surprised they didn't spend more time on abortion last night trying to play to the evangelicals in Iowa. We talked about that last week. Right. Me too. But I think they get first place. And I got to tell you, second place or honorable mention for fail on the trail this week has to be Trump's Halloween costume because he dressed up as a pro-union worker.
He tried to pretend that he was pro-union. And it was a big fail. It was a fake. It was a bad costume. It didn't fit him, which, you know, I'm not one to talk, but, you know, it seemed a little bit tight. And he didn't look comfortable in it because he is not pro-union. He's not pro-worker. And it's insulting that he thinks the rank and file union members are going to buy it.
So I wrote a piece for MSNBC online about the debate week, and it was kind of like a play that happened in three acts. Act one was Michigan, right? Trump did the smart thing. He was like, "I'm gonna go meet with auto workers. I'm not going to the debate. I'm going to Michigan to meet with auto workers." It's like, "Oh, that's, you know, all right. That was kind of a savvy move."
And Biden trumps him, so to speak, goes early. And I felt like that was a big win. He did really well. He didn't talk about himself like Trump did at a non-union hall. And, you know, Biden just talked about the workers, talked about the fight. Biden is not doing great with union workers, right? I mean, we know those Democrats haven't been for a long time. But the thing is, he's got an argument to make to them. And he can say, you may like Donald Trump.
He did not deliver for you. He had his chance. He didn't pass infrastructure. He didn't pass a chips bill that's going to mean there's work for decades in building semiconductor plants. There's work for decades for you in building infrastructure. He didn't protect your pensions like the way Joe Biden did. So it's going to have to be a long argument. It's not like, oh, that one day and the picket line in Detroit is going to nail the UAW or other unions for him. But he's got a really good argument to make.
Yeah, he absolutely does. I also think we ought to talk about what these fails mean going forward and who came out best. Yeah, what do you think? This week. Well, I clearly think that if you put together this really ugly, over-salted, badly seasoned stew of chaos in the house...
conflict in the Republican Party, a messy, ugly debate that if you just tuned in, you would think these were junior high kids, you know, fighting for the student council or who's going to be in charge of the Chili Supper. You know, it just did not look large. It did not look important. I don't think any of them really rose to the occasion. So I think Biden came out of this week looking like a normal, nice guy. Yeah. Doing his job and
You know, I think the speech he just gave today in Arizona, in Arizona at the McCain Institute, it kind of wrapped up who he is. You know, he didn't want to talk badly about Republicans in general. He just wanted to talk about the extremists. And I think he's the winner this week. And maybe that's just because the fail on the trail was so massive in the Republican Party with everything that's going on.
You and I both have concerns about some things in the Biden poll numbers, also just not a strong surrogate operation right now and pushing back on Trump. I mean, Biden himself is doing good things, but that's one third of the campaign. You need more to it. But if you look back, like they handled this well. Act one, they went to Michigan, they trumped Trump.
They had a great event. The debate was a debacle. For the first time, at least that I've seen this maybe going on, I didn't realize that T.J. Ducklow, who's one of their communications people, sent out strong talking points afterwards. He might be listening to Morning Joe because Scarborough has been on this kick last couple of weeks about how Trump is meandering and not clear. The
The statement from the Biden campaign was, Donald Trump gave a low-energy, meandering, nonsensical performance in Michigan where he begged for an endorsement he won't get because of his decades-long anti-worker, anti-union record. Great. Put someone on television to say that, right?
And then they have the third act, which is Biden going to Arizona, super smart, able to wrap up the week on the day they're starting impeachment hearings with a speech in Arizona at a bipartisan location of the McCain Institute about MAGA extremism and how it's threatening the Constitution. Yeah. And by the way, the narrative they've started to build, and I think they will continue to build on, and I think it's very important.
is that not all Republicans are bad because he needs some of those votes, especially the independents that lean Republican, normal Republican. And the phrase that jumped out at me are those that are being driven and intimidated by the MAGA extremists. Hello, Kevin McCarthy. Yes. Hello, all those people on the debate stage that thought the worst thing Trump had done is that he hadn't shown up for the debate.
There is intimidation that's going on. And I think them using driven and intimidated by MAGA extremists, I think that's a very winning phrase for winning next year in November. That is how to win in 2024 is to continue to isolate the MAGA crowd as those people that really, frankly, are just a little out of it. They're not normal. They don't care about the same things that most Americans care about.
People may think this is one speech in Arizona on one Thursday in September, but this is kind of like that speech the president gave in Philadelphia in the fall of 2022, where he laid out the attack on MAGA extremists, and it really drove their messaging for the rest of the midterm. This is it.
They are telling us today, this is our anti-Trump, anti-MAGA message for the 2024 reelect. No question today's Republican Party is driven and intimidated by MAGA extremists. And if their agenda is carried out, it will fundamentally alter institutions of American democracy as we know it. You may say, oh, that seems a little esoteric for voters. No, it's not, because we saw in 22 that they will turn out with that message.
So like general election does kind of feel like it's underway. All right, Claire, we have a big guest coming up after the break, former White House chief of staff Ron Klain. He has led debate prep for Obama, Hillary, Biden. So I can't wait to hear what he has to say about last night's chaos and how it impacts the general election. Plus what he thinks about people freaking out about recent polls and the House Republicans first Biden impeachment hearing. Lots to get to. We'll be right back.
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Welcome back. If there's anyone who knows a thing or two about debates, political strategy and electing presidents of the United States, it is our next guest. Ron Klain led debate prep for former President Barack Obama. Hillary Clinton spent many hours in a room in Westchester County with him going through that.
and President Joe Biden. He was also Biden's White House Chief of Staff. As I said before, when I have a question about political strategy or I'm doubting my own instincts about what's actually happening, my first call is to Ron Klain. People know him as a great policy advisor,
bar none, one of the best political strategists I've ever worked with. So Ron, welcome very much to How to Win 2024, because what we're focused on is, all right, moving forward, what needs to happen for Biden to win in 2024? Thanks for being here. Well, thank you. Thanks for that nice introduction, Jen. It's a pleasure to be here with you and Claire, and you're my first phone call too, so it's exciting to be here and chat it all out.
So, Ron, I'm anxious to hear you have done high-level debate prep. And as someone who has sat through debate prep, not at that level, but a lot of debate prep,
I was fascinated by the strategies last night that appeared to be embraced. Were there strategies last night? Well, that's just it. So give us your hot take on that mess that we witnessed last night. What do you think is going on there? Claire, honestly, I've watched now two Republican debates and I really haven't understood anyone's strategy, who they're attacking, why they're attacking, what they're attacking. I'd say the first rule of debates, as you know, is that you have to leave it liking the person.
particularly for candidates like these who are less known. They want to try to be...
You know, they should try to be a little more likable. I find most of these people, not just because I disagree with them, but I think their presentation style is very unlikable. It's hard for me to see how they're making votes by doing this. And just they seem to be attacking each other almost mindlessly. So I talked to a senior Republican after the first debate who told me that it all made sense because Republicans like strength. And as long as you're beating someone else up, you're showing you're strong.
I said, these people all look like they're just whacking away with sticks randomly, whoever's standing next to them for no reason. And not hitting Trump. So I don't see much strategy in it.
They're not hitting Trump other than Chris Christie. And, you know, I don't know if you're 50 points behind a guy, how you're going to pass him without doing something to pull him down. These people are all acting like Vivek is the number one candidate in the race. It's a bunch of people in fistfights with a guy at 7%. Makes no sense to me at all. And I don't think he's doing himself any favors by his demeanor and responding to all that. So I think it was incredibly distasteful.
If I had my druthers, I would have the DNC buy the tape of last night's debate and force feed it to people because I think if you see it, you don't want to vote for any of these people for president. I think it's going to wind up being a good training tape for when Vice President Harris has to debate one of these people because I think it's a vice presidential debate. These people are all running for second place.
And it's good training tape for Vice President Harris because she's seeing her future opponent thrashed around out there. Yeah. And I just know the interesting thing about Haley is that while she does appear stronger and frankly smarter than most of the rest of them.
I think that it's very hard for her to be so aggressively, almost angry all the time, especially in the fight with Tim Scott. You could tell that she was angry and
I've just watched way too many focus groups where there are women who are hard on women and men who are hard on women who they think are too angry and mean. And I don't want to use the B word, but if you've watched focus groups for women candidates, and I know both you and Jen have. We have. We hear you, Claire. You know and we know. You can't do that. The B word comes up. And I think what you said about likability is so true because even though she might have been stronger...
She wasn't putting herself in a position where independent voters or people watching this trying to get an impression of her were going to walk away saying, you know, she seems like a really nice, normal person. She just seems smart but mad. Yeah, I actually thought her performance in the first debate was better than last night.
And again, strategically, forgetting, I take your point about her demeanor, but more to the point, what is the goal of beating up on Tim Scott? He's like at 0%, and if you persuade all his voters to leave him and come to you, you're adding zero to your total. And so, you know, I get the fact that they're all scared of Trump, and they don't want to take on Trump, and I understand that, but if you're in ninth place in a race...
You can't sit there and try to focus on passing the eighth place guy and hope somehow that gets you to the front. It's just not going to work. It's not a strategy. So the only person who really has a strategy is Governor Christie has a strategy. I think unfortunately for him and unfortunately for the country, it's a strategy that's doomed to fail in Trump's Republican Party.
but at least he has a strategy. The rest of these people are just driving around in circles. And I saw TJ last night put out like talking points that were really aggressive. Of course, the first hit was on Trump, rightfully so, about his meandering speech in Michigan. And then, you know, the president's got his speech in Arizona today. You know, Detroit was a good bookend to start the week with the UAW, and now he's got Arizona. Look at this week. It kind of feels like the general election started. What do you see as opportunities, concerns for the Biden team going forward after this?
Well, Jen, you know, the president always has said, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. And I do think that it's a good contrast for him. And the alternative is Donald Trump. I think this week really illustrates that alternative. Joe Biden was in Detroit talking to the actual auto workers who were on strike yesterday.
i thought he looked vigorous out on the picket line it makes him look younger when he's out there walking around with the bullhorn and talking to people he spoke in a very plain way about the middle class building this country and unions building the middle class that was a strong message well delivered very different than donald trump coming into detroit to talk to non-union workers at the invitation of management so i'm happy to have that comparison
And then let's have a conversation about democracy. Donald Trump began the week by issuing a death sentence against the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, a great patriot. I think someone who the American people love and admire. And you have the contrast of that and the president going to Arizona to the John McCain Institute.
to talk about bipartisanship and standing up for democracy. I think the president's message in Arizona is very clear. He's not attacking all Republicans. He's not attacking most Republicans. He's going after MAGA Republicans and pointing out the fact that they're anti-democratic. I think that's a very strong contrast. I think it's one that served us very well in the midterms.
That was a key part of his campaign in 2020. It's very authentically who Joe Biden is, something his voice is great on. And I think it's been a very strong week for the president. So I want to sneak in here something real quick before we get to the impeachment thing, because I know, Jen, you want to talk to him. Yeah, we want to talk about polls. I'm nervous about polls. There's a couple of things I'm nervous about. Not totally.
I want to ask you, I'll be honest with you, Ron. I know Jeff Zients and I know he's an amazing manager and a really strong leader. And I'm not ever going to ask you to do anything but praise him, obviously. But this is not a guy who's done a lot of politics.
And I'm curious from the outside now, if you have any concern, I have concern that it doesn't appear to me surrogates are being deployed. It doesn't appear to me. I mean, I think they're sending out talking points and maybe it's because I'm close to a network where a lot of those surrogates would appear. And I know some of his very best surrogates are in the cabinet.
It just feels like to me that there's a couple of narratives that the Trump people are trying to get away with, whether it's border, whether it's jobs, whether it's economics, whether it's
who is fit to be president mentally and physically, all of those things. And is there a strategy that you could share about when there will be a more aggressive attempt to actually deploy surrogates to get out there and start kicking Trump in the shins? Well, so I guess I disagree with that, Claire. I appreciate your concern, but I disagree with it on a number of fronts. First of all,
the president's two chief political strategists in the white house are mike donald and anita dunn along with jen dylan on a different front and they were the president's chief advisors and strategists in the 2020 campaign they're the president's chief advisors and strategists in 2022 even when i was chief of staff that remains true today so i think he's got a solid team around him secondly in terms of surrogates i saw one of the president's most effective surrogates governor gavin newsom
actually at the debate last night in the spin room taking on Sean Hannity and you know representing the president's message so I think Governor Newsom is a super surrogate for the president and I think he was out there on the front lines yesterday he did a great job as he always does and then the president's other best surrogate or president probably president's overall best surrogate Vice President Harris who's been on the road the past two weeks with her college tour bringing the message in a very strong way and I think it's been very very effective so
So I think he has good people out there spreading his message. I think more Vice President Harris on the road, more Governor Newsom around. I think those are great, great surrogates for him. And obviously, you know, the more people we can get out there, the more the better. But I do think they have the message out there. And I think there are great surrogates out there on the road speaking on behalf of the president. More, please, more. I want more. We want Ron. Always more. When I look at the polls, Ron, some people are saying the president, he himself needs to be attacking Trump more. Absolutely.
And I see an education opportunity still, particularly with young people who are unenthusiastic right now, but also very worried about things, telling them what the president has accomplished. I see an opportunity with voters of color who, again, are lacking in enthusiasm, but also want more problems to be solved. And it turns out Joe Biden has solved a lot of problems. Do you think that the impetus should be on, you can do both things to some degree, educating voters on what,
has it been accomplished and what the president wants to do in a second term or just hammering the MAGA extremism democracy is at stake message? Look, I think we have to do both in the Biden camp. And you think you can. You think you can. I think this week is a good illustration, which is the week began with the president in Detroit talking about his economic agenda and
talking about what he has done for the auto industry, what needs to be done, talking about what he has done to bring back the middle class, what needs to be done. I think that's that positive message that's important. And today he's in Arizona making it clear the threat that MAGA Republicans present to our democracy. And I think both are very strong messages. I think that...
You know, in 2020, the Trump campaign accused Biden of campaigning from his basement. But in fact, the basement candidate is Donald Trump in 2024. He's not out there. Totally. And I think that with young voters, I think the more that Trump gets out there, the more that Trump is out there, the more it's going to raise enthusiasm on our side. And I think it's less about Biden going after Trump directly than it is people seeing Trump again and reminding themselves what they don't like about the guy. And so I think the more Trump is out there, the better it is for Biden.
And we can talk about polls, but there was a good poll out last week that showed that Biden's lead over Trump among Hispanic voters is higher than it's ever been. And I think that's a positive development. And I think we're still more than a year away from the election. Enthusiasm will build. It's hard to get people enthusiastic about an election that's more than a year away. But we got our vote out in 2020. We got our vote out in 2022 in the face of great skepticism. We'll get our vote again in 2024. I don't take anything for granted. That's why we're all going to work our asses off this year.
Well, the president's going to be out there campaigning hard next year.
But I do feel good about the fundamentals of where we are and the choice the president poses to the country. Claire's going to ask you about impeachment, but I know, and the vice president is really great with some of these populations as well. That's what she's doing. You don't see a lot of coverage of it, but she's out there all the time, you know, at HBCUs, colleges, et cetera. So last question for you, Ron, we know we have to go. Yeah, I'm a huge Kamala Harris fan. I think she's amazing. And I think she's going to be an incredible asset. The impeachment hearing, why don't you tell us why this joke is so important?
is going to help Joe Biden win in 2024. Well, I mean, they put out their star witness today, Jonathan Turley, who said he's seen no evidence the president's committed any crimes. And so I don't know what the point of the hearings is other than to show they have no case at all. And, you know, look, the government's about to shut down. Millions of Americans are going to be hurt. We're going to make our service people work without getting paid.
And in the middle of all that, they're busy having hearings that prove they have no case. So it's just more examples of the Republicans' ridiculous diversion from the business of the people to some political agenda that Donald Trump is making them go through.
And it's just a waste of time and a real diversion of energy that needs to be focused on the people's problems, not the agenda of Donald Trump and his allies in the Congress. I mean, the Turley stuff is unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No evidence. Anything else you'd like to share with us before we let you go? Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. No, look, I think that I'm excited to be here with you guys and happy to be a surrogate without a face. That's my strongest asset here.
But look, I think that it is going to be a long year. It's a tough campaign. Donald Trump is hard to beat. Joe Biden's the only person who's ever done it. He'll do it again. But I don't say that from any sense of false sense of confidence or arrogance. I just know the president. I know that the American people in the end have voted for him. They voted for him in 2020. We faced a lot of skepticism in 2022. There were a lot of polls that said we were going to get wiped out.
The president had a strategy to talk about reproductive rights and democracy, and that strategy worked. And we had a historic performance in 2022, and I think he'll do the same thing in 2024. He'll talk about his accomplishments. He'll talk about his agenda for the next four years. He'll talk about the choice. He'll make clear that democracy is at stake. And I think, once again, he'll have a very strong outcome in 2024. I feel optimistic, not overconfident, but optimistic about where we're headed.
Well, I know that a lot of people are tuning into this because they want to feel not just how to win 2024, but how to feel better about 2024. And I think you have helped everyone with that today, Ron. And we are so grateful you stopped by. We hope you'll be back. We're going to be talking politics every week.
Anytime. And we'd love to check in with you from time to time and take your temperature as somebody who's seen it all in presidential politics. Thanks, Claire. It's a pleasure with both of you. Thanks for having me. Talk to you guys. Thank you, Ron. Really appreciate it. Up next, there's one Democrat who's casting a serious shadow on Democrats ahead of 2024. Bob Menendez from New Jersey, who has been indicted on bribery charges. I have a bunch to say about this, so stay tuned.
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Now we're going to turn to our spotlight segment where we zero in on a particular issue, person, or race that may or may not be getting the attention it deserves. Claire, take it away. Yeah, we call this segment the spotlight, but this week I think we should call it the shadow because it is a dark shadow and it is about ethics,
and potential criminality on the part of a Democratic U.S. senator. They just had the caucus lunch, the Senate caucus lunch, which occurs every Tuesday and Thursday. Senators only. Sometimes there's some staff in there. Today, they made all the staff leave, and they also made the members of the Ethics Committee leave.
which is an interesting twist because that means obviously the ethics committee is going to be taking up the Bob Menendez scandal and looking at all of its parts. He left the meeting. I haven't had a chance to talk to any of my friends that were in there. I will and update everyone next week, but I have a feeling he tried to present a defense. It will be interesting to find out what questions his colleagues asked him.
but everybody needs to keep in mind that you're not entitled to a Senate seat and you are not entitled to keep a Senate seat if you've done things that are unethical. Forget about criminality. Everyone wants to say, well, until he's proven guilty.
Listen, we are all looking at what Trump did and calling for him to never have a lever of power near him again. And I don't know how we cannot do the same for this guy. And to be consistent and not be hypocritical, I think that the Democrats have to do whatever is necessary, whether it's coalescing around another candidate or whether it's actually continuing to put pressure on him to resign or
or censuring him, doing whatever they can do to show the country that they don't approve. Right, the ethics committee can take action. It seemed interesting that Schumer gave him this forum. It was like, I will give you this forum to make your case to your colleagues, and then...
you know, I expect the next thing is we're moving forward with the ethics committee. We're moving forward with more harsh things. But like what you, you were concerned about how this could impact 2024 outside of Menendez's race. Yeah, it's important. And it was telling that the first senators to come out
calling for his resignation are those that are in battleground states in very tough races in 2024. John Tester, Sherrod Brown, Rosen out in Nevada. They were all some of the first, and now it's up to 30 of them that have called on him to resign. So stay tuned. There'll be more on the sad story of Bob Menendez and his inability to understand the rules of ethics. And the reason why I think it's a threat is because...
it's like whataboutism, both sides-ism. It is when Republicans can muddy the waters and say, look, Democrats do it too. You know, like Trump has all these problems, but Hunter Biden's laptop, you know, Trump has these problems, but Bob Menendez is on the take too, and they just drag everyone down. And that, like, it's really getting to kind of the foundation of Biden's argument. So...
It does, like Democrats have to be really aggressive about it because it could contaminate, you know, waters well beyond New Jersey. Also, Republicans are defending him. It's like Senate Republicans are saying that we should not jump to conclusions and they should let juries decide. It's interesting to me. Obviously, this is to be consistent with their position on Trump, but normally they don't care about consistency. What do you make of this?
Yeah, clearly they're doing this because they've got a guy that's been indicted in four different jurisdictions. And so it's pretty obvious what they're doing. It's kind of sad. I do think that if you read the indictment, and I were to urge people to read the indictment and then decide what you would do if you were on the Senate Ethics Committee. The ethics committees don't have a stellar record of
of being aggressive about policing their own. And there was talk when I first came to the Senate to try to put, do an independent ethics board that wasn't made up of members.
But there have been actions the ethics committee has taken that have moved people towards the exit signs. I'm confident that looking at this indictment and the evidence they have, particularly how he was getting information to Egypt, there's a national security issue here. Right. So it's sad.
But it is important that we stay consistent. Yeah, because, yeah, sorry, Menendez, but we can't. Yeah, he can't be coddled and risk other people winning in 2024. He can't be contaminating other people's races. I feel like we covered a lot of great ground. There's like a lot happening. We'll be back next week. Any closing thoughts, Claire? No, just don't make me watch another one of those debates. I swear, if I'm
required to come to New York and sit on a panel about the next Republican kiddie table debate, I swear I'm bringing whiskey. I am bringing whiskey, and I'm taking a shot because I just think it's too painful to watch if you don't have a little help. I mean, look, sister, as you can imagine, I will be there with you. Thanks for listening, everybody. We had fun. I hope that you enjoyed it, and I hope you'll tune in and subscribe to this on a weekly basis. We'll be back next Thursday.
The senior producer for this show is Alicia Conley. Jessica Schrecker and Ivy Green are segment producers. Our technical director is Bryson Barnes. Paul Robert Monzi is our audio engineer. Jamaris Perez is the associate producer. Aisha Turner is the executive producer for MSNBC Audio. And Rebecca Cutler is the senior vice president for content strategy at MSNBC.
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Hi, everyone. It's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, Why Is This Happening, author and philosopher Daniel Chandler on the roots of a just society. I think that those genuinely big fundamental questions about whether liberal democracy will survive, what the shape of our society should be, feel like they're genuinely back on the agenda. I think it feels like we're at a real, you know, an inflection point or a turning point in the history of liberal democracy. That's this week on Why Is This Happening. Search for Why Is This Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow.
