EP72: Cannibal Cop 01:31:51

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance, and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget.

Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go. So whether you're playing a game at home or attending one live,

You can do more without spending more. Learn how to save at Cox.com slash internet. Cox Internet is connected to the premises via coaxial cable. Cox Mobile runs on the network with unbeatable 5G reliability as measured by UCLA LLC in the U.S. to H2023. Results may vary, not an endorsement. Other restrictions apply.

All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia podcast. I am your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my psycho micro co-host. Nice, investigators later. And she's wearing sleeveless gloves or fingerless gloves or something. I'm tricked out. You are. I'm coming out of my shell. And you're doing just fine. No, that's a cage.

This is when I feel the most like myself. Good. On this podcast. So I'm just going to start to like aesthetically show that. Sure. Do you know what those gloves remind me of? No, let's hear it though. Gleaming the Cube. What? Gleaming the Cube. Oh, okay.

Christian Slater had those gloves? Yeah, really? No wonder. I would have done. I mean, I did wind up getting them. But I mean, like, I was constantly shocked by how little my accoutrements affected my performance. What do you mean? Would you expect to be shredding because you had fingerless gloves? I think I've told you this before. I got a pair of Etni shoes. Begged my parents for Etni shoes. Finally got the Etni shoes. Went outside to kickflip. I was shocked.

Shocked. I was legitimately like, what the hell? You're like a marketer's dream boy. I can't kickflip with these shoes? What's the point? Yeah. I thought they were going to make me, I don't know, 10% better or so. And those gloves? Hell yeah.

But sometimes they do because you're feeling it. Yeah, yeah. And then you have the confidence to really go for it. Dress for the job you want. That's exactly what I'm doing now. You know, that's what we're doing with our sunglasses. Yeah. You got like heart sunglasses on or something. Because I'm full of love. You know, I'm creepy. I'm creepy.

and that's fine but I'm also I would like to thank people feel the love coming from me as well well there are also hearts which I didn't I don't know why I think every pair of your sunglasses are cat is that what you thought yeah well these do give a little lift a little cat eye but they're hearts I want almond eye glasses I'll find them for you I don't think they exist I'm a sunglasses queen are you yeah diff love doesn't even

matter. It could be diff, it could be brand name, it could be Target, it could be a gas station. It doesn't matter. If I like it, I'm wearing it. That's like the story of my life in terms of clothing, brands, whatever. Sometimes it's beautiful and whatever. And other times it's just beautiful and crap. Listen, sometimes they, like actors say, one for them, one for you, you know? Yeah. Do one for the people and one to fulfill your creative artistic need. Love it. And

Anyway, we're here getting ready to do a case. You're pumped about this case. Hell yeah. And I'm vicariously pumped through you. Hell yeah. I have to tell you, there was no hot water in my house today for some reason, and I took a cold shower, and it cured all of my depression, and I feel more motivated than I ever have in my entire life. Are you lying? Yes, obviously. I was like, you hate cold plunges. No, it was miserable. It sucked. I had to shave my head. It was like, not great. Shivering. You know who does...

Cold shower every single morning. Yeah. You know who? Your other firefighter, Dave. Yes. Yes. Every morning.

Yeah, it's like... He vibes with it. It does good by him. I guess, yeah. That's fine. More hot water for me. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Please. Does he ever use hot or he just ends on cold? So he starts out warm and then transitions to cold and goes out on freezing. I'll tell you one thing that I've done that actually I do recommend. It's painful though. All right. So regular shower, you turn the water cold and

And you let it run on your neck for like two minutes. Ooh, I just got goosebumps. Non-stop, two minutes. Then you turn the water hot. Well, the transition from hot to cold, that's why like a hot tub in Alaska is incredible, which I've done. Or anywhere cold. Well, I've done that. So I was able to actually reference that experience. That's why a hot tub on the moon. Yes.

It's so relaxing. Thank you, man. Listen, if you are listening to this podcast and it's your first time, welcome. If you're coming back, welcome home. Nailed it. Finish the sentence. Oh, freak. Yeah, welcome home, freak. If

If you are a returning listener and you're like caught up and you don't know what to do with yourself because you want more of us, head on over to patreon.com slash psychopedia pod because we have over there episodes of Psychopedia Unhinged where we revisit old cases and let it all hang out. We also have monthly Tankopedia, which is when I present a case to you.

And it's all also all hanging out. And then we've also just introduced Slaterpedia, which is a bonus true crime unheard from us to you. We've never covered it before. True crime case that is living on Patreon. And we also have the ad-free episodes over there. So, I mean, there's a lot going on. We also do some other stuff. We definitely do. We're just really getting started. I really feel like we provide the most Patreon content out of anybody. Oh, here we go again with you. Yeah.

We are the only true crime comedy podcast. I just realized something. You do the same thing. You just do it different. What do you mean? You, you're like, I could be Federer in tennis.

Oh. It's like, based on what? Fair point. Based on what? We provide, we're the only true crime comedy podcast out there. There it is. And we provide, maybe not the most, but quite a bit of content over on Patreon. So if you're just jonesing for some more, head on over there and sign up. Little Freak or Seeming Demon, whatever you want. You're welcome at all levels. Jonesing for a bones in, because look at my shirt.

It's a skeleton. It's a skeleton. Yeah, yeah. Did you see my shirt? It's a seahorse. A regular horse. Seahorse. Horses are the seahorses of the land. That is so deep and beautiful. It is. It's from Good Shirts. It's all I'm wearing these days. I know. I see you commenting online. Yep. I love Good Shirts so much. Anyway.

We are not sponsored by them, by the way. No, but I would love to be sponsored by them. Just totally put it out there in the universe. It'll happen now. Yep. So without further... One more. Sorry. Let's get ready to... YouTube. Oh, yeah, yeah. YouTube. Tell them. Okay, so we're on YouTube. So if you want to see visually Tank's reactions to the show...

shit that I deliver in front of his face. Like if you're listening right now, I'm doing something crazy. Right. If you want to see any of the clothing, you know, accessories that we've been talking about that we're wearing today and we'll always be wearing on these episodes because it's just time for me to be me, head on over to YouTube. Just type in Psychopedia Podcast and you will find our episodes. Or if you want to see our sick-ass murals done by my friend Chris Soria that we're only like a week into having. Yeah.

I love it. Oh, it's so good. I just think it's funny that you like my mural better and I like your mural better, but at the end of the day, that's what we're looking at. Grass is always greener. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that it is. I think I would like mine better over there also. It's just like my vantage point. Yeah. I'm never going to enjoy that. I don't know why I chose that one. I don't know. Like the video, subscribe, leave a heart, do your part, share, subscribe, review Apple, Spotify, everywhere. Follow us.

from our homes to the gym, say hello, stop us, follow us, stalk us, kill us. That's fine. Is what I'm looking for. I'll write a case about it from above. Yeah, yeah. That would be fantastic. And channel it through Dave as he's delivering it through tears. Him and Jessica both do it. In a cold shower. Crying. All right. Well, without further ado, let's get into this week's case. All right. All right.

Okay, first of all, I want to start off with a little song. You ready? Great, of course. I'm very ready. This has to do with the intro. Let's get philosophical. No, messed it up. So typical. Who saw that coming? So typical. Can you sing it? Start again. No, you do it. Let's get philosophical. What?

It doesn't work. It's too many syllables. That's why you're tripping over it. Whatever. Okay, we're going to get philosophical. And I wanted you to get excited, so I made it into a song and fucked it up. You're trying to cram eight pounds of shit into a two-pound bag. You know what I mean? I don't. Let's get philosophical. Philosophical. Five versus physical. Three. It's like it doesn't fit. Yep, understood. Okay, we're going to move on. Let's get philosophical. No.

You just did it better than I did. The first one works. The second one, it doesn't follow suit. It doesn't work. Okay. Great start. Oh, God. Okay. In the vast expanse of human consciousness where freedom of thought reigns supreme, a profound ethical dilemma emerges. Should the mere contemplation of a crime be treated with the same severity as the crime itself? Oh, God.

This question cuts to the core of what it means to possess freedom of conscience, a cornerstone of individual liberty that allows for the exploration of ideas, beliefs, and intentions within the private sanctuary of the mind.

Freedom of conscience is considered as a fundamental human right, protected by numerous legal frameworks and philosophical doctrines. It is the bedrock of personal autonomy, permitting individuals to navigate the labyrinth of their thoughts without fear of reprisal or intrusion. This sanctity of the inner life is essential for creativity, moral deliberation, and the very essence of personal identity.

However, the potential for thoughts to manifest into actions cannot be entirely ignored and

The line between thought and deed can be indistinct, especially when considering the concept of premeditation in criminal law. If a thought of committing a crime signifies a latent intent, should it be scrutinized as if the crime were already in motion? Here we encounter a paradox, safeguarding society from potential harm versus preserving the sacred freedom of individual conscience.

Typically, only actions, not intentions, are punishable. Because human minds are repositories of fleeting thoughts, many of which are never actualized. Intrusive thoughts are common and often bear no reflection on a person's character or likelihood to act on them. For example, I think about driving my car off of a bridge literally every single time I am driving across a bridge. Should I be sanctioned for my own safety because of the thought?

As we ponder whether a thought of a crime should be equated with the crime itself, we need to tread carefully. Yes. Because while freedom of conscience is certainly an essential right that must be safeguarded,

we still need to remain vigilant against the potential for harmful actions because no one wants to see the actualization of deplorable thoughts, especially the ones that once lived inside the twisted mind of a New York Police Department officer named Gilberto Valle. You see, Gilberto, or Gil, liked to frequent the dark web where he'd share his sick fantasies of abducting,

murdering, cooking, and eating women. Welcome to the morally gray case of the Cannibal Cup. Wow.

I'm high off that intro. Hell yeah. I feel like I'm on acid right now. Hell yeah. I feel like I'm in the synapses of a brain watching chaos all around me, trying to decipher what's real and what's not. That's heavy. I love that I just brought you there. I'm in Minority Report with Tom Cruise. I was just going to... Literally, the next sentence out of my mouth was, have you ever seen Minority Report? Yes, sir. Neither of us can say it, but...

You said minority report and I said minority report. My sorority report. Whatever the fuck it is. What did I say? Minority. I did? Chef boy nardy is what you said. Yeah. But I can't speak. That's like a theme. That movie was too scary for me to watch. The thought of being punished for your thoughts.

I was like, no, I can't. That's not, listen, in the, like you said, it's legally action or thought action are delineated very clearly. But in premeditation, it's not. Like you have to kind of figure out, were you thinking about this? But here's something that I have to say and then we can stop, kind of.

We're just getting started. Thoughts are not, and I'm saying this for myself and other people, thoughts are not real until you let them become real. Like if a thought pops into your head that is just jarring to you, take no stock in it whatsoever. Like an intrusive thought. Move on from it. Don't dwell on it. But like there's a saying,

You know, if the thought of a drink enters my mind, I don't invite it in and sit it down for coffee and fucking ask it how it's doing. I slam the door shut in it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So you're going to have thoughts that are maybe foreign or unsettling to you. Doesn't say a thing about who you are as a person. What you do next kind of does, even though it really doesn't because it's still just a thought. But man, thoughts are so interesting to me. Where the fuck do they come from?

Okay, let's find out where they came from for Gil. Okay. All right. Gilberto Valle III was born on April 14th, 1984 and grew up in Middle Village, Queens, New York. His childhood, framed mostly by the warmth of an affectionate family, good friends, and typical wholesome experiences, seemed pretty ordinary. The

The only source of negativity that Gil could point to when reflecting back on his early childhood was that his parents, mom Liz and dad Gil Sr., had a tumultuous relationship that led to their separation in 1989 when Gil was just five years old. His parents did not hide the fact that they didn't love each other and they would fight constantly in front of him. That is, if they even bothered to communicate at all with one another. But despite not loving each other,

Both his mother and father continued to love Gil unconditionally and equally ensure that he had whatever he needed to grow, develop, and thrive.

The only negative occurrence that he was directly involved in as a child that I could see was that he was taught to make fun of the New York Mets, particularly whenever they played against the Yankees. That was supposed to be silly. And you took that so seriously. You were like nodding. Well, I was thinking about when that was going on. And it's like, you want to make fun of the Mets back in the late 80s, early 90s? You can fuck right off. Yeah. Yeah.

Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Gary Carter. Do you know who I was friends with in college? Who? DJ Strawberry.

Daryl's son. No. Yeah. He was like nine feet taller than me. Hold your comment. And we were in the same. So he was like 5'10"? There it is. You couldn't do it. You couldn't do it. It wouldn't even occur to me. You set me up for that. Yeah. He was in my health class. And then I was not 21 in college, but neither was he. But he had no problem getting into the bars. So he'd be like, just come meet me. I'll get you in. And he did. Wow. Cool kid. Okay. That was a long time ago. I have no idea if he's still cool or where he is now. But hi, DJ. Hi.

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

My friend's still laughing at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.

Other than that, Gil was raised on solid values. He excelled academically, pursued his own passion for playing baseball, and attended the prestigious Archbishop Molloy High School. Oh, yeah. You know it. Yeah. When we delve into his proclivities, we'll say, desires, and arguably his intentions, it's surprising to learn that Gil came from this relatively typical and stable upbringing.

Typically, such depraved thoughts and desires, which obviously I'm going to tell you all about, stem from childhood trauma intertwined with other factors, of course, but usually that childhood component is present. However, in this case, it's absent, which is both unusual and fascinating to me. Question. Yes. Didn't you just say that he watched his parents fight for the first five years of his life? Yeah.

Yeah, they did. They argued. They ended up getting a divorce. When you find out what he had desires to arguably do or whatever, whatever he fantasized about, seeing your parents argue, I don't think would prompt that.

But maybe. Listen, obviously other factors. That's my point is that it's usually not just one thing like your parents had a tumultuous relationship. It's usually that in combination with this other childhood trauma, in combination with this form of abuse, sadly, or whatever it may be. Yeah. And in Gil's case...

there wasn't anything else that he could even look back on and say, you know what? There was a lot working against me. In those formative years, though, where your brain is literally figuring out what it wants to be, it's going to have a very negative effect. Maybe. Maybe. No, definitely. I'm not saying it's the one contributing factor. I was listening to Bone Breaker and we were talking about traumatic brain injuries and, you know, what happens or what can happen or whatever. Then I thought of...

Jamie Osuna, who was injured in utero and had a brain thing. Anything from the mom being overly stressed to drug use to actual physical problems in utero,

It's just like the base, the foundation you're laying is not good. It's so shaky. So I'm not like... Oh, so you're suggesting she was fighting while pregnant with Gil. No. Well, maybe. But even the first five years, like the foundation that everything gets built on is horrible. Yeah. So like...

I mean, I'm in agreement with that. I do think that there's definite downstream effects when your parents are openly hateful towards each other and spitting all kinds of vitriol. Before you can even talk. Before you can even understand it. So you're absorbing it and then maybe trying to process it. And maybe it does manifest in what it ended up manifesting. It's all energy for you. Yeah. It did in addition to other factors. Right. But.

That's my point. There really aren't any other factors. Oh. That's my point. Oh, hi. Hi, welcome to Psychopedia. Hi. Welcome to this episode. Nice to have you here.

Now, at the tender young age of 11 years old, Gil was essentially blindsided by the development of certain unconventional sexual feelings and thoughts. And while, of course, it's not atypical at all for a child of that age to experience sexual arousal when looking at certain images or people or whatever, Gil's sexual appetite took on a unique, if not sinister, flavor.

At 11? That early? Very young. Wow. Because whenever young Gil would see images of bondage and S&M, whether on TV, a movie, or in a magazine, he would become instantaneously excited. What kind of movies is this kid watching? Well, I was also wondering that, but he referenced being near like a bookstore at this age.

So I think that he like stumbled upon things. Bookstore, you mean like an adult bookstore? I guess, yeah. Where else would they have this stuff? Yeah. I also don't know if everything he saw was meant to be bondage. Like it might be like, I don't know. So I'm wearing a leather jacket. Or like my leather gloves. You know what I mean? That I'm wearing right now. Like he might have seen that and might have done something. He didn't choose to feel sexually electric every time he saw a woman getting tied up or struggling before the camera. Yeah.

It's not the life he chose, but rather the life that chose him. Amen. And this is important to bear in mind as we traverse this case. A sexual paraphilia, which is a pattern of persistent and recurrent sexual interests, urges, fantasies, or behaviors involving atypical objects, activities, or situations—

is generally not chosen or controlled by those who experience it. Research in psychology suggests that paraphilias are often deeply ingrained and emerge from a complex interplay of genetic, neurobiological, and environmental factors. They are typically extreme,

and considered by mainstream society as being wrong. And I have that in quotes. This perception can be extremely damaging to the individual experiencing the paraphilia because they can't help or easily change their desires.

The societal stigma and misunderstanding can lead to feelings of shame, isolation, and mental distress, which further complicates that individual's ability to seek help or manage their thoughts. And we know this because the understanding of paraphilias has come a long way since they were first considered mere perversions or moral failings. So somebody named Dr. R.V. Kraft-Ebbing, his original work from 1886...

titled Psychopathy Sexualis. Nailed it. Yeah. Was a groundbreaking step, this book, in recognizing paraphilias as medical conditions deserving study and treatment. And this initial shift from moral judgment to medical understanding opened the door for more nuanced and compassionate approaches to paraphilias, which are necessary to both treat individuals who are seeking help

and to protect society against the negative consequences that may occur from those who seek to satiate their sexual appetite. Think pedophiles. Paraphilia is just the inside urge, right? It's called something else when it manifests? No. Or no? I'm wrong? You mean the thoughts, the sexual desires, like internally versus like acting them out? I remember there was a distinction made during a case that we did where you were like, this is...

if I'm remembering correctly, in response to or in relation to pedophilia. Like there's people who have this side of it where the thoughts are in there, but they never act on it. And then there's the people who have the thoughts and act on it. And they were too... I don't know. I may be making shit up. I don't pay attention. No, but if you're right and I'm just remembering incorrectly or not remembering this at all. Taryn Flesherton, can you let us know...

No, my understanding is that a paraphilia is both the desire to have these funky sort of sexual desires and then acting on it. So like somebody with like a foot fetish paraphilia and then like going on and doing things with feet. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Paraphilias can be broadly categorized into common and uncommon types. So common paraphilias include behaviors like exhibitionism and voyeurism, which are more frequently discussed and somewhat understood by the general public and like somewhat accepted. On the other hand, uncommon and unacceptable paraphilias such as necrophilia or pedophilia are less talked about and more stigmatized.

Understandably. To that end, Gil's particular paraphilia, which we are going to hear about in horrific detail, is definitely both uncommon and unacceptable and involved being sexually aroused by the notion of kidnapping, torturing, killing, and eating.

You know what I wonder? What? Exhibitionism, voyeurism, common, accepted, understood, etc. I wonder if necrophilia and pedophilia are stigmatized, rightfully so, as we said, and

because they're so rare. Like, if everyone was out to have sex with dead bodies, would that be in the place of exhibitionism and voyeurism? Interesting. You know what I mean? I don't think so. I think it's because the act... There's a reason it's rare? The act itself is so horrific and against nature and, you know, would involve, like, desecrating a corpse in that case. You know what I mean? I think there's certain things, like, I don't know why I'm going to bring this up right now, but, like...

People that drink their pee, right, for health benefits. Shut the fuck up. Who the fuck does that? Have you been on the internet? Not really. Definitely not as much as you. Yeah. It's like your body worked so hard to get rid of that. You're going to put it back in now?

What happens when they drink their pee? Does their body have like a visceral response and like try and like puke it out? No, no. It's like, I don't know. It's of no concern to me. It's more about taking a waste product and putting it back in you. Like maybe, and now as I'm talking it out, I'm realizing what I was trying to say is like these necrophilia, pedophilia,

are stigmatized because they're rare and they're rare because they're so depraved. There you go. Rather than... I like how you backed into that. Well done. Pop quiz. Nice. While you're being so thoughtful, what is the term for sexual arousal caused by rape and cannibalism? Oh my God. A, chlorophyllia. Spell it. C-O-U-L-R-O-phyllia. Okay. Anthropophagallus.

Okay, give me a second. Snuffleupagophilia. Anthropophagolagnia. Fuck yeah. Okay. Copapophilia. Copapophilia. Anthropophagolagnia. Bacchymortocomisophilia. And the other, I mean, it's... Cholrophilia. Cholrophilia. Anthropophilia.

Papahagalagnia. Papahagalagnia. Jeez. Or copophilia. The second one, the third one sounds funny. You're going to go with that one. No, no, no, no. But it's like copophil. Like, oh, I got copophilia. I can't help it. That is funny. I'm going to go with B because I just can't imagine you writing that word. You are correct. Okay. You are correct. So that word.

I'm going to endeavor it one more time. Anthropopagalagnia is sexual arousal from rape and cannibalism. I'd like to tell you what the other two are real quick. Chloropophilia, sexual attraction to clowns. And copophilia with a K, sexual arousal from exhaustion. I mean, I would be constantly stimulated if I had that paraphilia. I'm so tired, I can't take it. I'm so tired, oh God, but I'm also so turned on. Yeah.

Okay. As Gil indicated in his autobiography titled Raw Deal, The Untold Story of NYPD's Cannibal Cop, quote, someone's sexual orientation is what the professionals in the field call fixed sexual

In other words, if you are gay, you don't simply choose to be gay. If you get turned on by feet, it isn't like you just woke up one day and decided that feet were your thing. Yeah, as if anyone would ever choose feet. And if you get hard when you see a woman tied up on a platter, then there is not a whole lot you can do to change that.

Throughout junior high school, Gil would masturbate to the thoughts of his various crushes being tied up, either naked or wearing their school uniforms, while struggling against their constraints.

He never spoke about these fantasies to anyone, instinctively knowing that they were wrong and that he was alone in experiencing them within his circle of friends. I should say that they were wrong, meaning obviously that that's how society would view it. But then when Gil turned 14 years old and entered high school, he discovered this brand new world filled with people just like him.

This portal into the endless abyss of pleasure known as the World Wide Web. And according to Gill, it was love at first sight. Using a bright orange iMac with dial-up connection, Gill perused countless porn websites that depicted women being tied up and gagged.

At this stage, the images he consumed were not particularly sadistic, but in his mind's eye, he'd ramp up the violence to increase his arousal. That, I think, is wrong. What? Say that one more time. So the images that he was consuming were sort of basic, like bondage. Yeah, yeah. And the people involved, my understanding, were presumably consenting. It was like a fetish site. Mm-hmm.

in his mind, he would ramp up the violence of the images he was looking at. So if the woman was tied up, now in his mind, he's going to make her like struggling to get out and scared and, you know, fighting to be released. And that's what he needed to get...

turned on. That's got to be very scary to have that going through your head. I mean, I'll tell you, I read his autobiography and I hate what ends up happening in this case. I do. I don't, you know, condone obviously ever thinking in your mind about violence or anything, but you read his autobiography and you do, you feel for him because he's explaining like, I know this is fucked up. I never told anyone. I'm ashamed. I'm disgusted. I'm humiliated. I cannot help it.

And that was what his quote was earlier, right? If an individual is gay, they don't choose it. If an individual likes feet, they don't choose it. I'm not choosing this horrific paraphilia. It's the life that chose him. Yeah. You know, so I felt bad for him when I was reading his autobiography, but obviously that's through his lens. So like, yeah, take it with a grain of salt.

Gil also began entering chat rooms and engaging in instant messaging with random strangers at this point, quickly realizing that the anonymity of being behind a computer screen allowed him to say anything he wanted and assume any identity he desired while also being unapologetically unapologetic.

himself. Because again, out in the real world, he told absolutely no one about his sexual appetite. Even from a young age, he knew that disclosing this fetish for wanting to watch women struggle against constraints before eventually being cannibalized would land him on the bench, socially speaking. Yeah. Then in 2002, Gil went on to college. Pop quiz. All right. Which statement is true?

A, Gil sparked up an S&M-charged relationship with a female professor of sociology at Hofstra University. Oh! B, Gil attended the University of Maryland at the same time I did. And I did. Yeah.

What year did you leave? Doesn't matter. Let's find out if that's even the answer. I was there for like a year and a month. C, Gil got suspended during his second month of freshman year at Queens College for being caught spying on the girls' softball team. So he either A, Hofstra professor, sociology, S&M-driven relationship, B, University of Maryland,

There's nothing else to that one, right? At the same time, I did. Okay. And I did. And then Queens College caught spying. C. Nope. B. Yep. You, him, DJ, Dave, me. What year were you there? I was there in 2000. Yeah, nope. Nope.

When was he there? Not 2000. So he attended the university. Why are you being so secretive about the year? No, no, because I'm getting to it. I'm trying to find it. Actually, no. I'm sorry. He did go there in 2000. So he attended the University of Maryland when Tank and I both did. We were all there. Tank was there. Yeah, yeah. He was solidly there. 2000, 2001. The year that the basketball team won the national championship. Yes. How fun was that? It was...

Interesting. Yeah, for sure. It was like a riot. Yeah, I was in the riot, but yeah. I remember looking down at it over Knox Road. It was like in front of like where that main road is and where Knox Road meets it with a Wawa. Route 1. Route 1, a lot of people. Yeah. Throwing shit, cars, fire. What fools these mortals be. Yeah. Yeah.

Gil even declared my major, criminal justice, as his second major, which means that we may have even been in the same classes together. Which means that he may have been fantasizing about me. I'm going to pretend that he was referring to me slash not in his autobiography when he wrote, quote, the vast majority of the girls at Maryland were gorgeous. Yeah.

And I wanted to watch them die. Oh, man. I know. I know. I mean, it's so tricky because like I always empathize probably to a fault with people, but it's pretty horrific. Especially if they're complimenting you. It's not me. I'm just being stupid.

All that being said, when Gil graduated college with a primary degree in psychology, he was still a virgin. According to Gil, he was terrified of getting a girl pregnant and wanted to stay focused on getting good grades and pursuing a career in law enforcement. I would honestly think this kid had his shit all together. Exactly. If I heard somebody say that. Exactly. While he may not have lost his virginity in college, he did achieve a significant milestone in his sexual development. And that was discovering what he described as virginity.

weird, unconventional porn.

In his book, he talked about a porn that he watched called Bella Loves Jenna, in which Jenna Jameson got executed in the electric chair and wound up in hell getting fucked by creepy-looking demons, including, quote, a midget demon that would show up on a tricycle and watch. But more to the point, in terms of finding his niche, Gil stumbled upon a website called Mookie's Kitchen, which was a fetish site that was based around cannibalism. And Mookie Wilson was one of those Mets. I don't know.

I don't know what that is. One of the late 80s, 90s mess. Oh, really? Milky Wilson, yeah. Okay. According to Gill, this website featured gorgeous women depicted as food, surrounded by vegetables or with an apple in their mouth like a pig at a roast ready to be served up all hot and nasty. Wow, nice. Saw that. You got that. Hot and nasty. Lorraine Abdul was there? Yeah. Stepbrothers for anybody who's wondering. Deleted scenes, by the way. Yeah.

Yes, you have to be a true blue fan to know what we're talking about. Another chat room that Gil visited called Dulcet Girls Forum was a place where users shared photos of women and wrote fictional stories, often involving fantasies of kidnapping and cooking non-consenting victims. As if somebody would consent to being cooked, but... Well, you do remember Sharon Lepotka, yeah? She was a one-off though, wasn't she? I mean, she was on Psychopedia. She was a one-off. Yeah.

One user's catchphrase was, quote, it's as easy as ABC, abduction, bondage, cannibalism. Oh my God. Yeah. Soon enough, Gil began to fantasize about girls he knew being abducted, tied up, and

and gagged with the knowledge that they were going to be cooked and eaten for dinner. This is actually probably officially where my empathy runs out. Like I was feeling for him when he was young and confused and looking at tied up women and getting turned on. Like I felt for him there. I gotta say, I'm feeling less thinking about the fact that these women, his fantasies involve

non-consenting women that that I can't well I can't get down with not to mention the fact that everyone has their own brain and things that happen in your life inform your brain something made him into this you know what I mean it would be impossible to pinpoint but something along the way happened

In my experience, life is all about fighting the bad impulses. So if you have a thought that you know is bad that you shouldn't do that is like really dangerous or whatever or is going to like hurt, wind up with somebody being dead, you

You're the only person who can combat that. Yeah. You know what I mean? I know that it overcomes some people, obviously, as we sit here discussing somebody who it overcame. Well, yes and no. You're going to find out. That's kind of like the work of being a human being is, you know, encouraging the good impulses and... Driving out the bad ones. Trying. Trying. Yeah.

Despite these dark interests, life was actually moving along nicely for Gil at this point. He graduated from college, moved back in with his father in Queens, and surprised his entire family by deciding to become one of New York's finest. He signed up for the NYPD entrance exam and scored a remarkable 99%. Wow. Gil coasted through the police academy, passed all of his exams with flying colors, was issued a service weapon and shield, and was assigned to the 32nd Precinct in Harlem. He

He worked the 5.30 p.m. to 2.05 a.m. shift, the time when the most amount of crimes occurred in that area. He even passed the sergeant's exam on his first attempt. Wow. Socially, Gil didn't have many friends or a girlfriend at this point. Consequently, he began to spend more and more time online on a website called Dark Fetish Network, or DFN for short, moving forward.

This lovely website provided viewers with the following statement on the home screen. Welcome to the social network where you won't feel like an outcast because of your dark fetish. Why? Because this place is created by people like you for people like you. So feel free to look around, meet some crazy, in a good way, people and become part of our growing adults only 18 plus community. Please

Please also remember that, and this is in all caps, this place is about fantasies only. So play safe. Yeah. Okay. And the cover art for DFN at the time was a naked woman who appeared to be dead. Not good. Appeared? Yeah. She was either an actress posing to be dead or worse. I mean, she was, yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay.

I thought they were trying to say, she's not maybe dead, but the purpose was for her to appear dead? Yes. Yeah, gotcha, okay. There were also photos of detached feet visible to public viewers, while subscribed members had access to even more graphic content, including, but not limited to, cannibalism, Vore. Do you remember what Vore is from our Issei Sagawa Kobe cannibal case? Oh my god. It's short for Vorephilia. Yeah.

It's close to cannibalism, but it's like the flip. It's the desire to consume or to be consumed by another person. That was Kobe Cannibal? Vorophilia? Yeah. We did talk about vorophilia. Yeah. What about Sharon Wapaka? We might have talked about it. Feed me, fuck me, kill me for those of you who haven't listened yet. Early on. Scroll all the way down. It was a good one. So this site included vor, cannibalism, torture, castration, pissing, phobia,

feces, slavery, executions, and mummification to name just a few. Oh my God. If you, let me just say something real quick. Yeah. Designed for fantasy, disclaimer, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. If you're on that website, you're in hot water immediately. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just the fact that you thought to seek that out, found it, got excited, dove in, subscribed, like,

I don't believe minority reports should be a thing. Right. But I feel like maybe if you sign up for a site like that, you should be on some kind of a list. A watch list. Well, it's like that question that's been floating around. I'm not even sure where. I just know that I've heard this and I've had conversations with Dave about it because it's interesting.

The notion of giving pedophiles a virtual reality experience with children, God, that's disgusting and horrible and horrific and heartbreaking, but with the intention or the goal that it would curb their desire to actually, you know, prey upon children in reality. I don't know if there's like an answer if that's acceptable or not or what, because the goal is to protect children in reality and

and to give these pedophiles who can't presumably control their urges a place to do it without anybody getting hurt. But you're also now allowing these disgusting, horrible images to exist in this person's world. Well, what happens is those things are usually progressive, those paraphilias. Mm-hmm.

So let's say somebody has never acted out, even fantasy-wise, in that way. You give them something that whets their appetite, I think it would definitely 100% cause more harm. Right, because they're always trying to one-off and escalate, and now I need more to, you know, so now I got to take it to the streets or whatever. Yeah, no. Scary shit. Definitely not.

But what appealed to Gil the most were the countless photo albums of women that appear to be real pictures of real people seemingly taken from Facebook with the caption, what would you do with her? Right? So this is what I'm saying, I guess, right? Like, and what you're saying, like, you can't,

You can't make it real on any level. It's too dangerous. Yeah, it's got to be like one of those thoughts that you go, no. Push it out instead of, right. Absolutely not. I'm going to think about anything else besides that over and over and over and over again. Right. As many times as it takes. So with this album on the DFN, what would you do with her? Anything went. For example, if one had a fetish for sleep porn...

He or she may write about giving the woman in the photo chloroform before having sex with her or raping her if she's sleeping. Gil was intensely drawn to this particular part of the DFN where he could explain exactly what he wanted to do to women. As such, he created an account under the username GirlMeetHunter.

and went on to describe in vivid, horrific detail his fantasies of kidnapping, binding, and cannibalizing unconsenting women. Because it was the unconsenting aspect that at this stage in his life did it for him the most. And it wasn't there in the beginning. Correct, exactly. You're right, there's that escalation. Before long, he went on to create his very own What Would You Do With Her album, where he went on to upload photos belonging to about 10 women that he killed.

Wow. Yes. Okay. 2000. Nope.

1,000? Yeah. So for a bit, Gil was pretty content with life and he just spent all of it extracurricular wise on this website. Oh, I didn't even know if, to be honest with you, I thought C was going to be 50,000. Really? Oh, damn it. I should have gone there then.

So he lived with his dad, he worked as an NYPD officer, and he went online to get his rocks off. Then, still in 2009, we're still in that year, Gil met his future wife, a teacher named Kathleen Mangan through the dating website OKCupid.com.

And 25-year-old Gil was in love.

Very cool, Gil. Oh my God. She's 25? Yes.

No judgment. Good for you, bro. And according to Gil... I mean, maybe you should have started younger so you wouldn't be such a freak, but... I don't think that would have helped. I don't know. According to Gil, sex with Kathleen was better than he could have ever imagined. He had fallen well and truly in love with her, and the two spent all of their spare time together, hanging out, talking, and having very satisfying, albeit vanilla, sex. Vanilla's in air quotes because that was his word. It's also from Fifty Shades of Grey, but...

However, Gil found himself visiting the Dark Fetish Network on a regular basis late at night after Kathleen would fall asleep. And soon enough, Kathleen was on the site too. Only she didn't know it. Oh. Because Gil uploaded her photos to his What Would You Do With Her album. She had become his favorite woman to fantasize about as he'd been with her in real life and could picture her being naked very easily and in tremendous detail. Mm-hmm.

Then something unexpected happened in the year 2011. 25-year-old Kathleen got pregnant. And after their baby girl was born, Gil's new little family became his entire life. He read parenting books. He borrowed $16,000 against his retirement to make sure he could provide for them and found a spacious two-bedroom apartment 10 minutes away from where he'd grown up in Queens to raise his daughter.

Despite being a happy and devoted husband and father, Gil was quite stressed at this stage, a feeling many new parents can definitely relate to. And

And to relieve his stress, he began spending more and more time online, particularly since his sex life with Kathleen dwindled significantly after the baby was born. Gil began to up the ante a bit by role-playing online with people who shared in his fantasies. Eventually, Gil and his online pals moved their online interactions off DFN and into Yahoo Messenger because the connection was better and it allowed for them to communicate and send pictures to each other very quickly.

So again, you're right, there's that escalation. Now he's actually role-playing. Now it's not just looking at pictures, it's ramping up. And this is where he got into the fetish of slavery, whereby kidnapped women would be put up for auction and sold to the highest bidder.

In line with his new angle, Gil created a new album titled Cook Her or Sell Her. And again, he used photos of women he knew, including his wife, and continued to keep his sexual fantasies private from everyone else, including Kathleen. Yeah, of course. Besides, he had plenty of people he shared his deepest, darkest desires with. And one of those people was a man from England who went by the username Moody Blues.

Gil and Moody Blues would discuss their mutual kink and exchange photos of women they knew. And then they would develop stories about those women and they would kind of role play with each other. They even hatched a fantasy scheme that involved which of the following scenarios, Tank? Pop quiz. A, meeting in London to tie each other's wives up to one another naked while they would watch and masturbate.

B, meeting in Iceland to practice their depraved fantasies on female Icelandic sheep. C, meeting in the U.S. to kidnap all the women that Gil knew to cook them in a massive cookout. C. Yes. Yes. Very good. Yeah. I don't know why I get amazed, but I'm proud of you. Very good. How could you not get amazed? I'm shooting in the dark every single time. I know, but I don't know. Okay, fine. I'm not amazed.

One of the women that Moody Blues spoke about a lot was a woman named Kate who appeared in Gil's album and was a former friend from the University of Maryland. And Gil, being a good cannibalistic crony to Moody Blue, indulged him in his fantasies involving Kate. So much so that when Gil went down to UMD for a weekend with his wife and daughter to visit some of his like old college friends, including Kate, he indulged Moody Blues with role-playing scenarios starring Kate.

Gil described to him how delicious Kate looked and how tasty she would be. Mind you, they never bothered to remind each other that this was all just kink talk because that would ruin the fantasy. But according to Gil, it was always understood that everything that happened in their conversations was part of their elaborate, if not disturbing, fantasy world.

Then, in the summer of 2012, the first trembling card in Gil's soon-to-collapse house of cards began to wobble, signaling the imminent unraveling of his carefully hidden life. And that trembling card came in the form of his broken computer, which forced him to move his online activities onto Kathleen's computer instead.

And wouldn't you know it, Gil forgot to log off one night, leaving Kathleen to discover a bondage porn website last visited by her husband. Now, this wasn't the DFN. This was, quote unquote, regular bondage sexual images, meaning there was no violence, no resisting, no signs of struggle, just seemingly consenting adults engaging in BDSM. And she wasn't on there. And she was not on there. Imagine that.

And much to Gil's surprise, Kathleen, after confronting him about it, said that she'd be willing to try it as she too had been wanting to spice things up in their sex life.

She instructed Gil to purchase a pair of handcuffs and some silk scarves that they could later use in the bedroom. But Gil indicated that he was too embarrassed to walk into an actual sex shop, as all of his fantasizing had been done strictly online, anonymously. So he didn't pick up any of the items, and he and Kathleen did not wind up experimenting with bondage. But

But what Kathleen did wind up doing two weeks later was installing spyware on Gil's now fixed computer because she was convinced that Gil was having an affair. And since he wouldn't engage in BDSM with her, which he obviously had been interested in, she suspected that he may have been acting out his fantasies with another woman in the flesh, so to speak.

And the spyware logged all of Gil's keystrokes, every website he'd accessed, and took screenshots every five minutes. And what Gil had written about his alleged intentions, as interpreted by Kathleen, had absolutely freaked her out, understandably. Because in private conversations, which she was now able to see because of the spyware, with other members on the Dark Fetish Net,

Gill explained that he intended to actually kidnap multiple women to bring them back to his home to torture. And on his list of victims was, of course, his very own wife. In these despicable conversations, Gill explained that in his basement, he installed a pulley system on which he intended to hang women from the ceiling before slitting their throats.

Then he discussed stuffing them into a large oven, cooking them, and then eating them. Where was he discussing this again? On the website? On the DFN. Okay. Other women he planned to impale on a roasting spit through their uteruses. Oh, what the fuck, dude? Before roasting them over an open fire like pigs.

Two more women were to be raped in front of each other to heighten their fears. In yet another online conversation, Gil outlined plans to abduct one of his wife's friends and stuff her in a suitcase before murdering her.

Another alleged target he discussed was an 18-year-old high school student whom he described as being, quote, the most desirable piece of meat he'd ever met, saying she was small enough to fit into a regular-sized oven. He also apparently searched the internet for advice on chemicals to render people unconscious, ropes with which to tie them up, and the properties of human flesh.

Kathleen also saw that Gil had been sending photographs of her as well as other women that they both knew to other men online, particularly four other men who were considered to be his main co-conspirators.

And these men included, one, Michael Van Hise, a 22-year-old mechanic living in Trenton, New Jersey, who offered Gil $5,000 to kidnap and deliver a woman to him so that he could rape and kill her. Jesus. He and Gil also discussed kidnapping and murdering Michael's wife and sister-in-law.

The second co-conspirator was a man named Richard Meltz. He was 66 years old and the ex-police chief at a Massachusetts Veterans Administration Medical Center. And Richard conspired to kidnap and kill Michael Van Hise's wife as well. This is like 22 and 66. That's a big... Yeah. This obviously has nothing to do with anything. No, it's an interesting...

No, no, I'm talking about this paraphilia. Oh, yeah. It's not age-related. It's not like someone gets into it when they've done it all and they can't imagine, you know what I'm saying? Right, right. No, it doesn't seem to be.

The third co-conspirator was named Dale Bollinger, aka Moody Blues. He was a 58-year-old nurse living in Kent, England, who interacted the most with Gill about kidnapping and cannibalizing women, and who, if you recall from our pop quiz, which you nailed, indicated that he would be coming to the United States to make it happen. And lastly, a man named Oliver,

Ali Khan, a 65-year-old former attorney in Pakistan who discussed with Gill in chat rooms his disturbing desire to kill and eat unconsenting women. See, there's like already a difference for me between thinking about it and what they're doing. Like if you're a cop, let's say, right? You somehow come across these materials, right?

I don't know if legally you can do anything, but you'd be crazy not to check it out. I agree with that. It's not like a person walking up to a cop and going, I'm having bad thoughts. What should I do? Well, I mean... Or you're going to go to jail for life. You are...

I would imagine, responsible for acting on warning signs. I'm not saying like lock him up and throw away the key based on these warning signs. But like, yes, to your point, you have to pursue it if you stumble upon this. Well, because we're out of random thought entering your brain involuntarily.

into even past perseverating, now you're talking to other people about actually doing it. Like that, maybe that's where the line is. Well, this is the crux of the case. And we're going to go on to hear that because Gil maintains that this was all fantasy and that you acted like you were actually going to do it because that's what made the fantasy so, you know,

potent, like the idea that it could really happen. And nobody reminded, as I said earlier, each other, like, hey guys, just checking in. This is just fantasy because that would kill... What the fuck, Brian? That would kill the fantasy. So, you know, they're saying that this was...

never going to be real in spite of the language that they were using. That language was part of the fantasy. Yeah, got it. Tricky. Weird. 12 days after discovering all of these horrific conversations, okay, that Kathleen discovered by using the spyware, on September 10th, 2012, after scrolling through 24 private messages between her husband and his co-conspirators from the Dark Fetish Network, Kathleen woke Gil up from his sleep and

and said, I logged into the computer just now and I saw everything. So she's sitting on that for 12 days? Well, yeah, I think she was like probably in shock, maybe scared, maybe collecting evidence. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the reason I bring it up is because I feel like the second I saw something, I would just go immediately. Well, I think she was planning. Be like, what is this? I think she was planning her exit. And that wasn't overnight because we're going to find out what she basically she called her parents who lived all the way in Nevada and made plans for her and her baby to go to Nevada. So I'm thinking that maybe she had to like.

get her ducks in a row. But even still, I would probably take the baby and just stay in a fucking hotel if I had to. You know what I mean? Until my plans were actually sorted. But she was incredibly brave for confronting Gil. She was brave for installing that spyware. She was brave for sticking around for 12 days. I'm speculating. I don't really know why she stuck around for 12 days. Well, she was reserved. I mean, if she was collecting evidence like you said, then like that takes a really specific breed of person to be able to

sit with someone, see them in the house, and just cold as ice be like, I'm doing something you don't... I mean, you're about to be fucked. Because presumably they had 12 dinners together, 12 getting up in the morning, getting ready together. Everything, yeah. 12 days of hanging out with their baby girl. 12 days of how was your day today? Exactly. It was good except for...

except for the fact that you're going to kill me, honey. It's just, it's been on my mind. I got to bring it up. I know. My heart really does break for her. Are you going to kill me? She was a new mom, completely blindsided and terrified. Sure, yeah. Right?

I think her entire world was probably rocked to its core. So as I mentioned, she confronted Gil and she indicated to him that she had already called her parents in Nevada and that she was taking their baby and leaving. Leaving or going to visit? Leaving. Leaving him. Gil begged Kathleen to stay, indicating that he was still Gil, still her husband, still the man she fell in love with. Just still Gil. Still Gil.

Nothing she read was real. It was all just fantasy talk, all role-playing, all fake. He loved her and he loved their life. But Kathleen was understandably freaked out and got the hell out of Dodge with their daughter. And Gil was an absolute disaster after they left. He couldn't eat. He couldn't sleep. He lost weight. He felt an overwhelming amount of shame, humiliation, and guilt. As one would. Yeah.

Then on October 25th, 2012, Gil randomly received a phone call from someone who identified himself as being a police officer with the 112th Precinct in New York. And the officer asked Gil if he could come outside as someone had apparently just hit his car and Gil needed to come down and I guess fill out the paperwork. So Gil complied. But when he got downstairs, he immediately realized that there had been no traffic accident involving his car.

No police officer with an accident report for him.

Instead, he found himself at the center of a federal sting operation. Oh, shit. Within moments, he was cuffed, placed into the back of a black SUV, and driven to lower Manhattan. Agent Anthony Foto with the FBI read Gil his Miranda rights back at headquarters and indicated to Gil that the FBI had been monitoring his computer activities for a year and a half. Gil declined... So he was on a list. Yes and no. Hang on to that. Okay. Okay.

Gil declined to have an attorney present, big fucking mistake, especially for a cop to make, because he felt like he could just explain that this was all a misunderstanding and that anything and everything that they discovered on his computer had just been strictly fantasy. None of it had ever actually happened it, nor would it. But the FBI continued to grill Gil, pun intended. So many Gil guilty things.

Grill Gil. About his role-playing scenarios as they pertain to each woman. And after a four-hour interview, Agent Photo informed Gil that he was being charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Wow.

He was transported to the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan, New York, where he was immediately placed into the SHU, which stands for Special Housing Unit. He's a cop. Because he was a cop, it was deemed unsafe for him to be thrown into GenPOP.

At his bail hearing, prosecutor Hadassah Waxman indicated to the court that Gill hadn't just committed a computer crime. Rather, she argued that he intended to kidnap and cannibalize women and that he would have gone through with it had he not been busted by the FBI. Real Scooby-Doo type shit. And I would have got away with it too if it wasn't for that Scooby-Doo. Yeah.

Prosecutor Waxman claimed that Gil had driven down to Maryland with the intention of targeting his friend Kate, who confirmed that she had indeed thought it was odd that Gil suddenly contacted her after not seeing her for six years and maintaining minimal contact since they'd graduated.

Prosecutor Waxman also alleged that Gill had stalked a woman while driving his patrol car and that he'd maintained a database on his computer that contained pictures, names, and addresses of approximately 100 women.

Gill's defense attorney, Julia Gatto, told the court that everything had been merely fantasy role play and that Gill had not intended for any of it to be real or to be taken seriously. But as she spoke, U.S. Magistrate Judge Henry Pittman cut her off, saying that in his 20 years of being a prosecutor and judge...

he'd never seen allegations as horrifying as the ones before him now. Yeah. As such, Gil Valle was denied bail. Furthermore, he faced life in prison if convicted. Wow.

Gil spent nine days in solitary confinement. And after nine days of having zero human interaction, not even from his attorney, since there had been a little storm that hit New York at that time called Hurricane Sandy. Sandy. Remember that? Gil claims that he suffered a mental breakdown.

By the time his trial began on February 25th, 2013, Gil hadn't showered, had hardly spoken to or seen another human being, and had not received one word from Kathleen.

And why hadn't he received one word from Kathleen, aside from the fact that she's fucking petrified of him? Well, it turned out that Kathleen had been the one to report Gil to the FBI in the first place. Meaning, the FBI had not been monitoring Gil's computer activities for a year and a half.

They were only alerted to Gil's online activities after Kathleen reported her husband to them. And then they were able to go back and see all the logs. Yeah, and they were fucking with him. I think they were trying to get him to reveal more if he figured, well, you've been watching me for a year and a half anyway, so I'm just going to tell you all about it. But the takeaway for me was the fact that he was busted because his wife turned him in. Well, scary shit. I get it. I get it. What is it called when cops are allowed to lie to try and get a confession? Oh, yeah.

It's called police deception. Deception. That's right. Deception is allowed.

Before we go on to discuss the trial, let's understand the law surrounding this complex and bizarre situation. In the eyes of the law, a thought becomes a conspiracy when the perpetrator commits a real-world, overt act of intent, like buying a weapon or conducting surveillance on a potential victim. Yep, got it. Because these tangible actions demonstrate a clear intention to carry out the discussed plans,

distinguishing mere fantasy or thought from actionable criminal conspiracy. So just keep that in mind. The trial has now begun under the presiding judge, Judge Paul G. Gardefi. Let's examine the major issues that took center stage over the course of what amounted to be a three-week trial. First of all, 21 out of the 24 conversations that were uncovered on the spyware that Kathleen installed...

which were held between Gil and his four co-conspirators, were deemed to be just fantasy. Oh, how? We can back into it because we're going to talk about how the other three were considered more concerning to the prosecution and therefore the ones that they were going after. Yeah. Because in these conversations, the three, it appeared that the men were making real plans to kidnap, kill,

and cannibalize women that Gil knew. I guess the other ones weren't like, let's meet at this time at this place or you know what I mean? Like it was more like abstract. I like kidnap, kill and cannibalize for a title by the way. Okay, well, I have it here. I was going to say write it down, but it's like all over the script. So with those three conversations or in those three conversations, they discuss details like dates, times, cars, the costs involved. They like got down to the nitty gritty.

However, as indicated by the defense, none of the dates or times were ever honored, supporting the argument that it was all just fantasy presented as reality to make the fantasy more delicious.

But the prosecution went on to point out that in these three specific conversations, the co-conspirators asked Gil if he was actually serious about going through with the crimes, to which he replied, yes. Whereas in the other 21 conversations, when asked if he was serious, he indicated no. What if he was just trying to keep the fantasy going? Right, exactly. Which is their defense. Are we really going to do this, Gil? No. Wink. Crossing my fingers behind my back.

Yes. Don't ruin it for me. I'm almost finished. That is their defense. The defense's response to that was that he did not want to break character. And therefore he said yes to avoid ruining the thrill for the group. Regarding Gil's graphic descriptions of what he intended to do with the women in his basement using the supposed pulley system that I described earlier,

Well, this elaborate torture dungeon simply did not exist. Okay, that was a question. Gil lived in an apartment building in Queens that had laundry machines in the shared lower level of the building. Yeah. So the defense had a stronger argument here in terms of Gil being no talk, or all talk rather, no action. Or more to the crux of the case, all talk, no intent. Then the prosecution brought up Gil's internet searches regarding how to make chloroform. Sure.

But Gil never actually purchased chloroform or any of the components that would have been needed for him to have made it himself. Yeah, but it doesn't look good, buddy. Well, point for the defense still. Yeah. Now, he did access a federal database on his work computer to locate the three women he was allegedly planning to really harm.

However, he accessed this information in 2011, which was a full year before the prosecution argued that he intended to kidnap and eat them. So it's unclear whether he looked them up out of curiosity in 2011, the way one does when they're just curious about people they once knew when he had access to this fancy database, or if he was actually planning that far in advance to do something more nefarious. I think it's probably the former.

I think so, too. Yeah. Prosecutors argued that Gill appeared to take concrete steps towards carrying out his plans and that he'd mapped out routes, created timelines, and even surveilled potential victims. They claimed, based on cell phone tower data, that on March 1st, 2012, Gill was on the same block as one of the women he allegedly planned to attack. Yes.

But the defense argued that on that day, Gil had been assigned to a CRV anti-terrorism assignment and as such was driving his sergeant around all day, which may have coincidentally placed him close to this alleged victim. Furthermore, he was assigned to patrol in his precinct on March 1st and had responded to a 911 call made at 10.45 p.m. in Harlem, which was 10 minutes every

after his cell phone supposedly placed him in New Jersey near the woman he was alleged to be stalking. Yeah, they're not always so accurate. That's correct. But then you can't say, I guess, one way or the other. Yeah. You know what I mean? So maybe it's like a moot point for both sides. Yeah. So all of that said, do any of these things, either in isolation or combined, prove intent?

According to the prosecution, absolutely. According to the defense, absolutely not. The defense maintained that you cannot police thoughts and you cannot punish someone for having dark thoughts.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's not easy to defend freedom of speech when you disagree with what's being said. It's the only time it matters, though. But that's precisely when it's the most important to do it. Oh, man, we were on the same wavelength there, huh? Very huge.

All right, circling back to the intro, what about someone who can't control their thoughts? Whether they're intrusive thoughts like driving off a bridge or sexual thoughts, neither can be controlled. Do these thoughts become criminal if they leave the mind, even if they're not actually acted upon? For example, just putting those disgusting words out there about wanting to murder, mutilate, and consume human beings, do we police that?

would that fly in the face of the First Amendment right to freedom of speech? It's tricky because free speech is only protected by the First Amendment if the words being communicated are not intended to lead to criminal activity. So in this case, it all comes down to being able to prove Gill's intent to carry out the crimes. Very complex issue.

Kathleen took the stand during the trial to testify against her husband. She told the court that Gil used to press her for details about her nighttime jogging route. According to Kathleen, Gil would strongly encourage her to jog after putting the baby down at night and would ask exactly where she planned to jog and whether there were streetlights along her route. She implied on the stand that Gil was planning to arrange for a co-conspirator to kidnap her so he could live out his depraved fantasy.

In his autobiography, Gil denies this, suggesting that Kathleen and the U.S. Attorney's Office deserve an A-plus for creativity in coming up with that theory. Yeah, maybe he was trying to make sure she was being safe. He insists that his questions were out of concern for her safety, wanting to know where she went and whether her path was safe to jog. Especially if you're into that type of stuff and you assume that you project your shit onto the world and you're like, there's some sick people out there. Yeah, because you know it. You know how I know.

I'm one of them. Yeah. Where are you running? Are there lights? Please be careful. Right, right.

Lastly, Gill underwent psychological evaluation by world-renowned forensic psychologist and criminologist Dr. Park Dietz. We've talked about him before on Psychopedia. I love the recognition. When did we talk about him? Well, he's worked with Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Kaczynski, the DC Snipers, Andrea Yates. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He evaluated Gill over the course of three full days from December 31st, 2012 to

to January 2nd, 2013. And he spent from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. with him each day. And Dr. Dietz concluded, and this is interesting, that Gill was not a danger to others and that his behavior was indicative of a fantasy-driven compulsion rather than a genuine intent to commit violent acts. He stated, quote, despite government assertions that Mr. Vallee was, in effect, on the verge of

acting to implement his thoughts through conduct, literally every tidbit of evidence argued by the government in support of Vallée's guilt is equally consistent with Vallée being along the great many men with similar patterns of sexual arousal who do not commit crimes rather than being among the far smaller number of men with similar patterns of sexual arousal who do commit violent crimes. He also went on to say this,

Right.

Without any consent whatsoever, normal men incorporate images of women they've noticed in their erotic fantasies during sex, masturbation, and passing thoughts. I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. However...

In the end, on March 12th, 2013, Gilberto Valle was convicted of conspiracy to kidnap, as well as unlawfully accessing a federal database, which is a misdemeanor. But still, he faced a potential life sentence for the kidnapping conspiracy charge.

However, his sentence was never finalized because in June of 2014, U.S. District Judge Paul G. Gardefi, who I mentioned earlier, overturned Gill's conviction for conspiracy to kidnap, indicating that the evidence presented by the prosecution was insufficient to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that

that Gilberto had engaged in a genuine criminal conspiracy. In his ruling, Judge Gardeffi emphasized that Gil's online communications about kidnapping and cannibalism were more consistent with fantasy roleplay than with actual plans to commit these acts. He also specifically noted that once the lies and fantastical elements are stripped away, what is left are deeply disturbing, misogynistic chats and emails, but

but insufficient evidence to support the charge of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. He also indicated that not every harm is meant to be addressed by federal criminal law. Thus, after serving a total of 21 months, Gilberto Valle was released from prison on July 1st, 2014. He was placed on house arrest, deprived of internet access, and is required to undergo a mental health evaluation regularly.

At the sentencing hearing, Gill apologized to the women for putting them through the ordeal of testifying. He said, quote, I just hope they know they were never in danger. I would never do the things I talked about on the internet. Never. Now, the co-conspirators involved in this case all faced different charges for which they were all convicted.

And of note, all of their convictions were upheld because the evidence in their cases demonstrated a clearer intent to commit the crimes they were charged with. And their legal defenses did not persuade the courts to the same extent as Gill's defense attorney did. We got a good attorney. Yeah.

Gil lost his marriage. He lost his job with NYPD and he was not permitted to see his daughter for 21 months. In 2021, which is recent, he said, this situation with me has been over for years now and I'm just trying to move on with my new life. It's so exhausting to keep being a punchline.

He now works in construction and spends his time trying to rebuild his life and his relationship with his daughter one day at a time. He actually spoke at CrimeCon 2019 in New Orleans. And he mentioned that people often sent him messages saying that they wish someone would put a bullet in his head or beat him to death. And to that, he said, and this is how I'm leaving off,

That's fine, but they can't overlook the fact that they can say that and have nothing happen to them in part because of how my case played out. Yeah. You can dislike me as much as you want. You can say, he's a scumbag. He's a piece of garbage.

But if you look at the case merely from a legal perspective, there's one conclusion you can reach. This is the country of second chances. I'm holding out hope that people who make mistakes don't have to be forever defined by those mistakes. Wow. And that is the case. My brain is vibrating. I know. Right now. I know. I knew that this case would do that to you. You're welcome.

I went back and forth so many times. I know. Maybe you want to take notes sometimes. No. Okay. You don't. Why would I want to take notes? I don't know.

For the unhinged? Yeah, sure. Yeah, but I do that later. Oh, you said go back and forth like with where you stand? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought you meant like you had so many fleeting thoughts and they're gone now. Oh, no, no, no. I don't know why I heard that. No, no. Got it. It's like when you heard the other thing when you thought I would get the Photoshop done. You definitely 100% said that. You definitely said you were not paying attention to the case back and forth. Yeah, I mean, there's two...

very like glaring scenarios in my head. One is that I found out that someone had Jessica in their fantasy to kidnap, rape and kill. The other one is way darker where I'm the person that has that fantasy and I know I'm never going to act on it.

That's probably why he had a psychotic break in jail. He was like, what the fuck? I wasn't like... In solitary confinement, just thinking this through. Thinking he's going to be in jail forever. You lose all sense of time in solitary confinement. You have no idea how long you've been there, where you are. You hallucinate. It's to have that weighing on your head. Listen, if he truly did not intend to go through with any of this...

than for him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I mean, maybe some kind of penalty for putting it out there in the ether, these disgusting thoughts. Some kind of penalty for using photos of women who you know, even though according to the psychologist, right, like everybody, not everybody, but enough people in this world, like fantasize about people they know. Forgetting about that. That's like, there are some things that are definitely...

not gray for me anymore right and wrong yeah like using pictures of people you know to put them up on a fucking fantasy on a forum for other people you know what I mean it's one thing if you're looking at you know your own little private collection which you know whatever thinking about or you're thinking about them yeah but to put them out there in an album what would you do to her cook her or sell her yeah you know I mean that's inexcusable yeah so maybe punishments for that

but not punishments for the crime that you think he was going to commit. I'll be honest with you. I'm very glad that he did not spend the rest of his life in jail, mainly because of what he just said. Like he gets messages from people saying, I want to shoot you. I wish somebody would kill you.

Isn't it nice for you to be able to say that? That's what he said. That hit me. That's why I made it the ending. Exactly. Exactly. How many times do you, you know, when you're venting and you think you should spend the rest of your life in jail because you sent me a message. I have a screenshot of it. You did say it. Right. Right. You know what I mean? Like it's definitely, you said it. Right. It's not just the thought you had, you expressed it.

People are weird. People say all kinds of wild shit on the internet still. I know. And there is that line of like when it becomes dangerous, when it's not you being freely allowed to express your dark thoughts. Yeah, yeah. You know, when it crosses that line into premeditation in a sense. People write weird shit to me all the time. There's only one time where I actually like...

tapped into my people at Instagram and was like, this person, I might need to know who this is. Really? Yeah. Can you tell us what that person said? I don't want to. Okay. Just because I don't want anybody to even hear it and go, oh, I'm going to mess with Tank and say this. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. No, thanks.

They said they were going to give me money. Cool. Yeah. A lot of money, though. A lot of people can write to Tank saying that they're going to give him money now. Exactly. Got it. Yeah. They said I was like too handsome to be alive. Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, Gil, all the girls at the University of Maryland are gorgeous. Oh, yeah.

You don't say. I mean, there are 38,000 students there, but I'll take that compliment. I'll make it all about me. Yeah, why not? Well, great case, great job. Thank you. Better ingredients, better pizza. Papa John's. Yeah. Better pitches, my money's better, my whips are better. You're such a freak. I know. Tony Stavocci. So do you have...

Can you show us a little titty? Tank's titty this week, it's like I'm looking at my notes. It's just the theme that goes on over and over again. This one is a saying that my therapist said to me. I don't know if it's like a popular phrase or not, but he said, how can I use this as grist for the mill?

Then I wrote, we as a species are imperfect. It's not just you, dude. You're not uniquely imperfect and everyone else knows what they're doing. Like something comes up that's bothering you that makes you want to act in a way that's not in your best interest. Delay the action and look at the feeling and try and determine what that is like. It's like my mom said when I was younger, pain is good. Like I hurt myself or whatever it was. I fell and fucking banged my knee and I was like, I wish I didn't feel any pain. She's like,

You actually don't because pain lets you know something is wrong and it needs to be checked out. She meant physically, but I think of that as emotionally. Like if you're in some kind of pain, there's nothing wrong with you. It's not a moral failing, like you said, about, you know, the paraphilias being converted from moral failings to medical conditions. Mm-hmm.

There's something in there that's looking for attention and you better take the time to figure it out. Otherwise, not only is it not going to go away, it's going to pick up steam and get worse and worse as time goes on. Like the head always exposes itself at some point, even if you think you're not feeding it.

Like you not feeding it is feeding it because it feeds off of neglect and you know what, you know, fester. It's going to fester and festering is, is bad. It rots and then it's going to rot your soul. Okay. So this is actually tank steady. Okay. Okay. That was just cleavage. Side boob. Here comes the nipple. Okay.

This is something that I wrote. I don't know when everything is all at a whack on the timeline here, but this was a note to myself. Find out who I am, not who I learned to be.

Oh, just a small little to-do list item. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a waking moment mantra. Like, is this who I actually am? Like, I haven't used drugs or alcohol in a long time, but I escaped through various different means, not as extremely and as often as whatever. But this is who I learned to be, not who I am. Who am I without all of this? And that's a really tough question.

Without all of what? Without being raised by my parents, without growing up in the town I grew up in, without... Then you're not you, right? Those are all things I've done or I've experienced. That's not who I am. No. Sorry, I'm not pushing back. I'm just talking out loud. But don't they come together to create... They come together to create the idea of who I am. Who I actually am is different. Who I actually am is who experiences all this stuff. They're not one and the same? No, I don't think so.

Not my opinion. You have one that's formed over time through experiences and different memories that get logged in your brain. Like the thinker, like observing the thinker. You're not the one thinking. You're the one observing the thinking going on in your brain. So find out who I am by not acting like who I pretend I am. Okay, sure. I don't think you're pretending.

I think there might be more to you. Sure, go explore that. But I don't think the person you are now is somebody you're pretending to be just because... How do you know that the person that you were formed to be, how do you know that that's not who you are? So it's so hard for me to delineate between these two things for you because you don't, like, it's just not the way you think. So the things that happened to me in the store... So last night at a meeting, somebody said...

Story is part of my relapse. Oh, whoops. I mean, relapse is part of my story. And I latched onto story as part of my relapse because like, what story are you telling yourself? Are you telling yourself a story that I'm a chronic relapser or that I don't work out or that I, I go to bed late and I'm tired all the time.

Because that's what you're going to do. And that is all learned behavior. But who you are is always the same. I'm into that infinite nature shit though. Yeah, yeah, you are. You know what I mean? You're scared of my infinite nature. I'm wearing the bonnet right now. No, I'm eating tuna.

And you're pretending to be interested in this so that you can get more land for Huckabee's corporate. No one sits like this rock sits. Just suburban sprawl. How? God gave us oil. He did. How could God gifts be bad? He did, sir. But why did that happen in the first place? Well, he gave you a brain too and you fucked that up pretty good.

I heart Huckabee's listeners. Please go watch it. Greatest movie ever. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that's enough. Well, thanks for showing us your, your titty. No problem. Being so vulnerable with that. It is. That's, that's why we call it titties. Yep.

We are so happy that you decided to stick it out with us and listen to this entire episode. And I'm not kidding. I really mean it when I say that you mean a lot to me. And I hope we mean the same to you. And me. You mean a lot to us. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm speaking for myself. Don't. I figured you would chime in. I don't want to speak for you because then you go, don't speak for me. Not us.

You speak for yourself. Got it. Yeah. Got it. You're really taking everything seriously today. And I don't know why. I'm really not. You keep going, wow. Well, because if you're going to give love to our listeners, I would like to be included. Do it after me. Thank you so much for listening to everyone. You mean so much to us both.

Oh, thank you. I know that I speak for a tank when I say that. It did feel better. Yeah, that when I say that we are all family and having your ears and or eyes if you're watching us on YouTube with us for this whole time. And our minds and our hearts. It means a lot to us, so we thank you. It does. We don't take it for granted. Not lost on us. Thank you for listening and we will see you guys at the next episode. Bye.