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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I'm your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my micro host. Investigators later. Classic. It can't go wrong. It can't. You can't go wrong. I heard this episode that we just put out, Mega Host, it said. I said Mega Host. I didn't like the way it sounded. No, go back to micro. It felt great saying it. Yeah. But micros, it's just, you know, whatever it is, what it is.
I always know nothing about the case, but you've also told me nothing. Is that on purpose? No, I've just been like neck deep in research. Okay. And I have a bunch of cases going right now, a bunch of balls in the air. There's so much happening up here in my brain. Yeah. That I didn't let any of it out. Good. I'm in the same position right now because I don't know if you guys can see, but on the table here in front of me is my laptop. And that is because I'm going to be doing a tankopedia right after this. Okay.
And I am fighting every fiber in my body to not scream out parts of whatever. Yeah. I can't wait. I can't wait for this. I'm having a really hard time. Thank God we watched that Brian Jordan Alvarez video and I can sing. Please don't laugh at me with my wife.
Why? That's on repeat in my brain now. Oh, okay. Well, I needed it because I was going to let the cat out of the bag for sure. No, don't do that. I'm about to do it right now. Move on. I know. And by the way, Tanglepedia is something that I do on Patreon, patreon.com slash psychopedia pod for all of your extracurricular needs. If this podcast is just not doing it for you once a week and you want more and we do more over there, we do unhinged, which is revisiting a case and just wiling out.
Wiling out. It feels almost wrong to say we revisit a case. We touch upon. It's like a foot in the door and then we blast the door open and then it goes straight Kool-Aid. And then we sprint around in circles. Oh, yeah. What is that? Dave does that all the time. Kool-Aid man. Oh, yeah. That's me busting into the house. Dave says that all the time.
It's a lot of things, but to me, it was the Kool-Aid man right now. Yeah, that makes sense. And then, I don't know. There's nothing else happening in my life right now. Okay. Oh, subscribe to the podcast. We're almost at a milestone of subscribers. What is it? 100,000. Oh.
I pay attention to different metrics. What do you pay attention to? The number of reviews, the amount of stars, and maybe that's it. Well, I just look at everything. I'm always up in those. Oh, and the analytics, like behind the scenes, like how each episode is doing. I'm up in those analytics. Which country listens to us the most, like things like that. Shout out to Australia. Yeah, you guys. Good on you. Yeah, you guys are going to love Tankopedia.
Whatever. A little bit. It takes a place down under. Yeah.
Yeah, ratings are helpful. We love them. Reviews, subscriptions. Subscribe because, you know, you don't want to miss a case. This last case came out on a Tuesday. My bad. If you didn't have notifications set, you wouldn't have known it. You would have waited until Wednesday. My bad. So, yeah, I think that's it. That's all I want to say. So without further ado, another classic. We are all about the classics today. I'm doing throwbacks. Let's hear about this case. All right. Here we go.
Some fates are worse than death. Oh. And today's case tragically illustrates that sentiment to a T.
As a parent, venturing into the research for this case was a journey fraught with discomfort, disbelief, and a pure, blinding rage. Because the crux of the case today is a traumatic story of a mother and father who, while guardians by nature, remained entirely passive and seemingly unmoved by their own child's descent into an abyss of unimaginable suffering.
With a chilling detachment, these parents witnessed the painfully slow unraveling of their only child's life. Here, individuals expected to be guardians by virtue of blood and love morph into the very agents of torment. You know what I do like about this case already? What? I know it's going to make me feel like a great dad. 100%.
Today, we are covering the outrageously heartbreaking and gruesome case of a 36-year-old woman named Lacey Fletcher, also known as the woman who melted, literally, before her parents' eyes. What? This just happened as well. So anybody who's on the up and up with true crime will likely know about this case. It's devastating. The woman who melted? Yes. All right. And the people that love her? Mm-hmm.
Yes, sure. All right, let's get into it. Lacey Ellen Fletcher was born on November 25th, 1985 to her parents, Sheila and Clay, and was raised in a town called Slaughter in Louisiana. Why is a town called Slaughter? Is it for obvious reasons? No, it was actually named after the post-Civil War landowner, George Slaughter. I thought maybe there was an abattoir on the property. Oh.
That's a fucking throwback. Yes, it is. You remember what episode? Catherine Knight? Yes. Hell hath no fury like a butcher scorned. Very good. I'm impressed. Yeah, thank you. As a tightly knit community of less than a thousand people, Slaughter epitomizes the tranquil life of small town America, marked by its historical roots and the close connections amongst its residents.
Lacey's father, Clay, worked as an officer for the Baton Rouge Civil War Roundtable, this organization that her father works for as one of the oldest Civil War roundtables in the nation. Kind of interesting little fact. I don't know what that means. What is a roundtable? So it's a group that operates on a non-hierarchical, can you help me with that word? Non-hierarchical what? Thank you, basis. Oh, that was the whole word? Non-hierarchical. Okay.
I thought you were trying to say hierarchical. No, but I'm asking for help. Say hierarchical. Hierarchical. Perfect. Okay, on a non-hierarchical basis.
Wow. Was that right? Even better than the first one. Oh, okay, good. It emphasizes equality amongst its members and encourages open, circular discussions. It's a throwback to King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table. Yeah, I've heard the term before. Okay, it's a little bit irrelevant, I gotta say, to the case, but I just thought it was interesting. Well, you know I get hung up on dumb shit. So do I. That's why it's in here.
Sheila worked as a court clerk in Baker, Louisiana, and was an assistant to the city prosecutor in Zachary, Louisiana. She was also an alderman and vice mayor of Slaughter. What is an alderman? An alderman is an elected member of a city council who represents a ward or a district in the city and helps to make local government decisions. Okay. My mom, when I was younger, was an ombudsman. You know what that is? Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome.
In 1995, Lacey, who was then around nine years old, and her family relocated to a spacious two-story, 700-square-foot home in Slaughter, marking a new chapter... Sounds spacious as fuck. I mean, hey, man. Hey, man. I've seen pictures. It's a lovely home. 700 square foot. 1,700. You said seven. You just...
17 is totally normal size. 17. That's what I was like, yo, man. Okay. Take it down a notch. Yeah. Lovely. So they moved to Slaughter into a 1700 square foot, two story house. Really nice house. Groomy as hell. Yeah. At nine years old, Lacey was known for her fun and endearing personality and stood out as a smart and likable child. However,
However, her behavior often diverged from that of her peers, and she was perceived as somewhat immature or childish, having interests that didn't quite align with those of other children her age. But this unique disposition didn't really hinder her socialization or involvement in school activities, and she actively participated in the school volleyball team at Brownsfield Baptist Academy and got together with friends and neighbors often. So she was considered different, but still part of the group.
However, unfortunately, even though she sort of had this somewhat wholesome earlier childhood, the transition into adolescence brought significant challenges for Lacey. By the 10th grade, the emergence of mental health symptoms began to disrupt her daily life, leading her parents to make a pivotal decision. They chose homeschooling as a way to better address and manage these challenges, a shift that essentially marked the beginning of the end for Lacey. Yeah.
But at the time, no one questioned, you know, her parents' decision to do this, right? Nobody knows. Well, nobody knows. And Sheila and Clay were well-liked church-going pillars of their community. And their choice to homeschool was seemingly made out of love, right? Concern and a desire to provide Lacey with a more comfortable and accommodating environment in which to nurture her special needs that were starting to surface. Yeah.
It was during this period, so now she's at around age 15, that Lacey received diagnoses of social anxiety disorder and autism spectrum disorder, prompting the next part of her life, horrifyingly, to be lived in near total isolation. Yeah, because of her parents. It's very complex, but essentially her parents were her guardians, right? Yeah.
especially being underage, but even more to the point having special needs that may be questionably, arguably slash definitely hindered her ability to make decisions that were in her best interest. Right. So she relied upon her parents and then decisions that they made led to... And nobody at the school had the opportunity to say, hey, is everything all right at home or what's going on? No. And it's a big sticking point in the
Yeah. Yeah.
When Lacey turned 16, she underwent treatment from a doctor for several months or years, depending on the source, an encounter that would unexpectedly and inexcusably become her last encounter with a medical professional.
From that point onward, Lacey's presence in public diminished sharply. She essentially fell off the radar entirely. Aside from a singular occurrence when she was 21 years old, where she was observed by a neighbor named Robert Blades engaging in a solitary walk around the neighborhood while holding dumbbells,
She retreated from the outside world and was really never seen by anybody. Is she my dad? Is that what your dad does to exercise? But he used to walk around with dumbbells. Wow. I mean, it's a pretty decent workout. I still remember those dumbbells. Did he strap them on his hands? No, but they were like meant for holding. Yeah. They had like a thing that went over and they were covered. Well, that's what I mean. It's like a Velcro. Like you slip your hand. No, no, no, no. Oh. I'm
I'm being as specific as I can, Slater. I mean, not specific enough, it would seem. It was a thing that went over your hand, but not... A thing? You're so specific. You know what? I'm sorry. He used to walk his ass off with those things. Great. All around the neighborhood.
Just reminded me of him. Sorry for talking about my dad on this podcast. I love your dad. You can talk about him whenever you want. I'll have him listen to this and see how he feels. Remind me to buy him some dumbbells before you tell him. Yeah, no more than two and a half pounds though. So this marked a poignant, isolated stretch of life for Lacey and one that ended in the most inhumane, despicable way. She melted, right? Well, to find out exactly what happened, we're going to start backwards with Lacey's tragic death. So I
I know that you prefer a funky timeline. I'm giving it to you, but unfortunately, we're starting at the worst part here. Oh, like when it happened? I'm sorry to say. All right, well. We got to back into this, okay? Get out of the way. On January 2nd, 2022, Sheila called 911 at 2 a.m. to report that 36-year-old Lacey was not breathing. Alarmingly, Sheila struggled to recall Lacey's age during the call. It took three attempts before she guessed 31.
which was incorrect.
During this time, Sheila claimed to be performing CPR on Lacey while still on the line with the dispatcher. However, Dr. Michelle Dupre, a respected retired forensic pathologist and coroner, who I watched on an interview, voiced doubts about whether this actually happened. Because according to Dr. Dupre, the sound of the rhythmic breathing heard during that 911 call, supposedly from Sheila allegedly administering CPR, was likely fabricated.
And she goes into why. By the way, I realized that we kind of moved quickly through her childhood and now all of a sudden I'm giving you, unfortunately, her death. We're going to circle back. All the pieces will fall into place. So just go with it. Okay.
When emergency responders arrived at the house, which was located on the 2500 block of Tom Drive, what they discovered almost defied belief and completely sent the small town of Slaughter, as well as the rest of the world, into a tailspin of broken-hearted outrage. Really? Myself included. So you knew about this before you researched it? Yes.
There, in a haunting posture with legs crossed, lie the deceased body of 36-year-old Lacey Fletcher, literally fused into the fabric of a brown leather couch as if she had literally melted into a crater that was created by her prolonged presence in that one spot. Lacey was completely emaciated, covered in feces, and ridden with ulcers.
Her eyes and mouth were hauntingly wide open at the time of her death. Investigators also noticed scratch marks on the arms of the couch, proving further evidence of her presumed suffering. Next to the soiled couch was an unused gray toilet, as well as bottles of nasal spray and talcum powder, and several children's DVDs. An unused toilet, talcum powder and nose spray, and kids' DVDs. Yes.
Notably, the rest of the house presented a stark contrast, appearing tidy and well-maintained, except for the ghastly sight of Lacey, a crushing symbol of disorder, decay, and death.
No! No! Emptied them into the couch? Wow.
There was also fecal matter smeared all over Lacey's unrecognizable face, exposed breasts and abdomen, as well as inside of her mouth and ears. Twelve years she sat in that spot on that couch? Yes. I have to honestly...
It is so beyond heartbreaking to talk about and to research and to hear clearly. And please, no one forget that we're talking about a human being. Like this is my thing with podcasts and we talk about that a lot. Yeah. We're telling a story here. But like, lest we forget, this was a 36-year-old woman
woman fused to a couch because she did not move for 12 years. Wait, hold on a second. I'm going to explain it. I know, but I have to ask. Okay. So she didn't get up to get food, didn't get up to go to the bathroom, didn't get up to go look out the window. No.
No. Her parents made her sat in that exact spot. Or whatever, we're going to find out. We're going to find out exactly what happened. And obviously it's he said, she said, what the medical evidence reveals. It's complex. It is. She slept there. But at the end of the day, what happened, I believe, happened. And that's that this woman, this young woman, did not physically move for 12 years.
That is beyond. Beyond. Untenable, which is a word I like. Yes, it is a word you like and it's perfect. Yeah.
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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Alarmingly, Lacey's skin had deteriorated to the extent that it peeled away from her exposed bones, which indicated prolonged exposure and neglect prior to her tragic end.
At her death, Lacey's weight had plummeted to a mere 96 pounds, and she was also found to have contracted COVID-19. Maggots infested Lacey's tangled, unkempt hair and fed on her decaying flesh while she was still alive.
Maggots, which is the larval stage of flies, are naturally attracted to decaying organic matter as a food source, which indicates just how rotted Lacey's flesh and tissue had become that they were feeding off her while she was still alive. That is like, I don't even know. I know.
On January 3rd, when emergency services reached her, the coroner, Dr. You Will Do It Bickham III, this is Louisiana, and I say that lovingly. You think you will do it? You will not do it. You will do it Bickham III? Yeah. No, you won't. Very good. Very good. That's good, Tank. Thank you.
So this individual, okay, he's the coroner, he indicated that Lacey Fletcher was, quote, literally tortured and rotted in her own body. The odor permeating the home was so intense for Dr. Bickham, an experienced professional exposed to death and decomposition on a regular professional basis. For a living, yeah. Found himself unable to eat for an entire week after Lacey's discovery. Just hearing about it,
is making me feel a ton of things inside. Yeah. Well, that's normal. I can't imagine walking in on that scene. I mean, it was just across the board. Authorities indicated they had never seen, investigated anything like it before. It's reminiscent and it reminds me of the doll case where the guy was like keeping dolls in the house. Yeah, yeah. Again, it's...
please understand what I mean here. At least they were already dead. We understand. You talked about that in the episode. It was the Anatoly Mosk... Anatoly Moskvin. Yeah, case. And you said it then and I understood it and you said it now, which I understand. That the only small mercy is that in that case, what he did to those bodies...
were done after they had died because i talk about it i think i've talked about it on here before i talk about it enough that like most people are not scared of being dead because it's like you have nothing to be scared of you don't even know what you're being scared of but people are scared of how they're going to die yeah and to be forced to live through your own death for 12 years is wow yeah that's a wild way to put it but very accurate
Although Lacey's official time of death was recorded at 3.07 a.m., shortly after the coroner's arrival in response to the 2 a.m. call from Sheila, Dr. Bickham suggests that Lacey likely passed away two or three days earlier, possibly on New Year's Eve. So as the world ushered in a fresh start, Lacey faced a solitary and tragic end in her own filth.
She endured the final stages of her life battling starvation, bone infections, being eaten alive, until finally succumbing to sepsis. So sepsis is a severe response to infection and occurs when the body's immune system malfunctions and it attacks its own tissues and organs. Painful. And this can obviously lead to organ failure and tragically, in Lacey's case, death. How could you sit there and being in that much pain and not move? She suffered a catastrophic...
breakdown of the body's defenses and without doubt died suffering. That's supposed to happen after you die. You know what I mean? Like not before my, I took my son to go get allergy shots. Totally going to seem like I'm not trying to equate the two, but they gave him the shots on the back or whatever, like the row of needles or whatever. And he couldn't itch it. Hmm.
And he was like, Dad, I need to inch my back. I was like... It was uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable, but like times that by 1.3 billion or whatever.
Infinite number. A league of its own, this case. I can't even imagine being, like, bed sores, but times a million. And she had bed sores. Not being able to get up. What the fuck? There's so many theories that we're going to get into as to why she didn't get up. And you have all the right questions. Just let's get to it, okay? Okay. During Lacey's autopsy, which was conducted by Dr. Dana Troxclare, who was a chief forensic pathologist at the Jefferson Parish Coroner's Office...
pieces of foam from the couch were found inside Lacey's stomach, suggesting that Lacey either consumed pieces of the furniture out of extreme hunger and desperation, or it had been intentionally fed to her. But either way, that's all that was in her belly. That and feces.
Lacey suffered stage four decubitis ulcers from head to toe. Some that had live maggots inside of them. External ulcers she had. Yes. And her hair was so matted that Troxler, Dr. Troxler had to use the scalpel to cut it off during the autopsy.
I learned a horrific fact, by the way, which is that the maggots found feeding on Lacey had actually kept her alive longer. Really? Because they ate away the dead and rotting flesh from her body. Oh my God. Goes from bad to worse. Lacey also endured kidney failure and her tailbone had flattened from the pressure of sitting on the couch for such a prolonged period of time, according to the doctor's report.
And I've seen her autopsy photos, which is something I wish I could now unsee. And she literally looks like a steamroller ran over her body and just flattened her out. Really? Yeah. She also had bruises all over her back and open bloody sores. And you can see this. It's
It is haunting. Don't, but you can. But don't. Right. Yeah, don't do it. Now, a medical examiner, we've talked about this before, is responsible for determining two key pieces of information. If you don't remember, Tank, that's okay, but I also love giving you the chance to, like, remind us of the information you retain, give you the floor. Do you remember the two key pieces of information that a medical examiner is responsible for finding? Oh, method and...
Oh, come on. Come on, come on, Tate. Another M word. Sort of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh my God. Come on, come on, come on. I can't get it out of my brain. Five more seconds. Think. Method and... You want to know two things, right? You want to know... How? Uh-huh. And...
In what? Like, what? You're there. You're there. I'm not. Just fucking tell me. Come on, dude. Please. Oh my God, you're like my kids during homework. Oh my God, my brain. I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at myself. Okay, I'm proud of you. They determine cause of death. Motherfucker!
And the method. And the manner of death. So the cause of death, meaning... Wait, hold on. Why did you make it seem like I had any of them right? You did. You absolutely did. You said it differently. Come on. Give yourself credit.
Cause of death, which is the underlying medical condition, disease, or injury that begins a lethal chain of events that results in death. Yes. As well as the manner of death, which may be homicide, suicide, accidental, natural, or undetermined. In the case of Lacey Fletcher's death, the cause was officially acute medical neglect. And the manner of death was indeed death.
Yeah. Unsurprisingly, District Attorney Sam D'Aquila indicated that this was the worst case of human neglect most authorities in that area had ever seen. Needless to say, on January 3rd, 2023, 64-year-old Sheila and 65-year-old Clay, Lacey's parents and primary caretakers, presumably, were arrested and indicted on charges of second-degree murder.
At the time of their arrest, Sheila cried silently with her head between her knees while Clay sat expressionless, seemingly in shock. Like those people, parents, I just did the calculations. I was wondering what you were doing on your phone. 12 years. Well, I had some business to attend to. Cool, cool, cool. 4,380 days that they again woke up and went to bed with the decision to let their daughter continue to suffer. I have the same feeling
storytelling technique later in this case that you just delivered because it really puts it in perspective. You parents woke up every single day and you made that same choice every single day to do nothing for your child. Worse than nothing. I have a pop quiz, man. What is the word for a parent or parents who deliberately kill their own child?
A, filicide. B, pedicide. C, senicide. Filicide, pedicide, senicide? Yes. Can you spell that? No. I can't. Really? Sometimes I don't know if you're messing with me. Just the first part of the word, not the whole thing. Filicide. F-I-L-L-I-C-I-D. Pedicide. P-E-D. Senicide. S-E-N.
Philicide. Yes, why'd you guess that? You're right, but come on. No, it's something that is in the back of my brain. Okay. Phil, the root word, Phil, phila. Very good, very good. So, philicide often refers to any murder of a child up to the age of 18 committed by his or her parents or parental figures, including guardians and step-parents.
Now, Lacey was not a child in the legal sense, but she was entirely dependent upon her parents for reasons that we're getting into. According to initial research conducted back in 1969 by Dr. Philip Resnick, there are five main motives for filicide, including altruistic, fatal maltreatment, unwanted child, a
acutely psychotic, and spousal revenge. So altruistic killings occur because the parent believes that the world is too cruel for the child or because the child is enduring suffering, whether or not they actually are. Oh, okay. Okay. In fatal maltreatment killings, the goal is not always to kill the child, but death may occur anyway. Yep. Spousal revenge killings are killings of children done to indirectly harm a domestic partner. Okay.
Which is the least common of all the forms, the filicide. So it's like to hurt your... In my opinion, the worst one. I mean... They're all terrible. I know what you mean, but... I don't like when people use kids as pawns for like... Anything. Weekend stuff. Right. You know what I mean? Like if there's a joint custody situation and they're like, you know, well, I'm not going to fucking...
Now, for a child's death caused by a parent to be considered filicide, intent is typically a critical factor. So the act must involve some level of premeditation or conscious decision to end the child's life. Over and over again, 4,380 times. But in Lacey Fletcher's case, based on the information provided, her death resulted from neglect rather than a direct act of killing by her parents. You see where intent becomes questionable.
doesn't excuse what they did and they're still responsible. I think the intent is even more implied with something that takes that long. I'm with you. Because maybe on day 4,381 in reverse, like when it first started, they didn't say, let's neglect her.
For, you know, 12 years or until she dies, whichever comes first. But three years into it, you can't fucking go, you know what? This is like, it looks like she's kind of not having a fun time on the couch. Let's get her off the couch. Yeah, no, that never happened. And you make a conscious decision. Right.
So it is unequivocal that her parents either directly caused or failed to prevent her death. Their actions, or lack thereof, were undeniably responsible for this tragic outcome. Terrible.
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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. So how did Sheila and Clay account for their actions in light of the shocking and prolonged neglect and abuse? I can't wait to hear this.
On January 18th, the East Feliciana Parish Sheriff's Department conducted interviews with Sheila and Clay seeking answers to this very same question. Sheila explained to law enforcement that Lacey suffered from social anxiety and that she received psychological counseling over a period of three years during her teenage years, but eventually stopped and had not been treated on any front since.
There were points over the years when Sheila and Clay considered pursuing a commitment order to have Lacey institutionalized at a mental health facility. They were just dying to get rid of her. No, but Lacey, according to Sheila, allegedly made it clear that she didn't want that to happen. Yeah, according to Sheila. Number one, according to Sheila, and number two, it doesn't...
It doesn't matter. Yeah. She's not well. Yeah. You know, my son sliced open his chin. I could see his muscle. Like I could see inside his face. The hole was so big. Yeah. I don't need to go to the ER, mom. I'm fine. I don't want to go to the hospital. I want to go on my iPad. Exactly. Yeah. I know better. You're going to the hospital. Yeah. 17 stitches later. You know what I mean?
So Lacey essentially endured the horrific circumstances of her home imprisonment instead with all of the pain and humiliation and degradation that seemed to have come along with it. All because according to Sheila, Lacey said that she did not want help.
Yeah, where was everyone else during this? Thank you. Like 12 Christmases went by and no one was like, hey, where's your daughter? Apparently, and this is touched upon in sources, but I have not come across a deep dive. Yeah. There was one neighbor who questioned, like, where is Lacey? The last time I saw her was however many years ago walking around the neighborhood with dumbbells. Yeah. And they said something to the extent of something Sheila and Clay like,
Like, she's fine. She's, you know, she's going through things. She's doing her thing. Da-da-da-da. Like, kind of implying she's off in the world or she's going through some stuff. Oh, like she didn't see her leave. Exactly. And a lot of people sort of, again, these were church-going pillars of the community, right? So they assumed...
I don't know, Lacey moved away or we're just not seeing her, but she's obviously fine. Yeah. But this does bring into question, obviously, like the community's responsibility. There's not one person who didn't realize that 12 years and not one person in that entire community could say, oh, I saw her at the grocery store last week or I saw, not one person. Oh, maybe she got raptured. Yeah, maybe they should have said she got raptured. Maybe. Maybe that would have been, you know, something. Yeah.
On February 5th, following police interviews, Sheila and Clay then spoke at a court hearing to attempt to explain the circumstances surrounding their daughter's at-home death under their presumed care. Clay testified first and explained that his daughter enjoyed a typical childhood until after her ninth grade year when her social circle dwindled, leading to the emergence of social anxieties as she transitioned to a new school. And we know that. According to Clay...
quote, Lacey developed some degree of Asperger's syndrome, end quote, which prompted them to homeschool her instead.
During this time, Lacey's interactions outside her family circle had become quite limited, which further exacerbated her anxieties and phobias. And that was during the police interview he said that? After the police interviews at a court hearing. Okay. Clay stated, again another quote, her world had closed in on her more and more and more and it got to some phobia starting. Like being scared of the dark and not sleeping in her bed, she stopped using the toilet after seeing a snake in a toilet on TV.
I wonder how many people are stuck in their home with phobias. I think about that a lot. It's crushing to think about. But this is why community awareness and responsibility is crucial. Because obviously you don't see them out. You don't see them enough to notice that they've disappeared. When we were going to University of Maryland and I was out every night, I saw the same
150 people every night. Aren't you popular? Yes. Well, I was at a bar. Yeah. Yeah. I was just looking at them. I wasn't hanging out, but it was a lot of very familiar faces and there was 38,000 kids in that school. Right. And I remember thinking like, where the fuck is everybody? Yeah. They were studying probably or sleeping or, you know, doing what you're supposed to do in college. But it just struck me as odd. And then I started thinking like, I wonder how many people are just like
non-existent in the real world what did you contribute to society today you know what i mean yeah that doesn't make them non-existent um in terms of existence or society it does i'm not saying it's people but i'm saying if you don't leave your house at all during one day you've done nothing in society maybe we'll save that for unhinged exactly we'll circle back
I do want to mention that the term Asperger's syndrome is no longer officially used. Oh, it's not? No, it's not. In 2013, Asperger's syndrome was reclassified under the umbrella term autism spectrum disorder in order to reflect a better understanding of autism as a spectrum of conditions with varying degrees of severity and manifestations rather than distinct categories. Isn't Asperger's...
What's considered Asperger's towards the low end of the spectrum. Meaning the higher functioning? Yeah. That's my understanding. So the manifestation of autism symptoms can change over time due to a variety of factors like aging, environmental factors, stress, access to support and interventions. Yeah. And while autism itself does not worsen...
like in some progressive bioneurological way, like some other conditions might. Doesn't progress, you said? No, it doesn't worsen. An individual's ability to manage symptoms or cope with environmental challenges can fluctuate.
And are you saying most people get better with managing the symptoms over time or it can fluctuate? With intervention, yes. For example, the transition of starting a new school, which was Lacey's situation, it may have exacerbated her abilities or her phobias about communicating and like social anxieties, socializing, and then her behavior reflected that.
So what started out as behavior that was deemed different or quirky in childhood, right? Remember her peers used to say that she was like a little bit different, intensified as she got older and faced new, bigger challenges, particularly in the absence of support. Yeah. So based on the information available from my research, Lacey Fletcher did not receive any educational support or interventions specifically designed to address her needs related to autism spectrum disorder. Okay.
effective interventions, individualized and focused on her specific needs and strengths, perhaps involving a multidisciplinary team of professionals like psychologists, occupational therapists, speech therapists, and special educators, that would have been crucial in addressing her wide range of challenges that she was beginning to experience. So while autism itself is not a mental health disorder, it's a developmental condition,
condition, right? Untreated autism can contribute to challenges in mental health for some individuals. It's not a mental disorder? It's not a mental health disorder. It's a developmental disorder. Isn't it development of the mental? No, so mental health is like psychological. This is developmental. Oh, like physiological. You're talking about the hardware instead of the software. Yeah. Okay. It's
It's also worth noting that there are numerous co-occurring conditions that can exist alongside autism, such as anxiety, depression, ADHD, and a variety of physical symptoms, which can significantly influence one's ability to manage daily interactions and adapt to their environment. These co-occurring conditions can compound the challenges faced by people with autism, may
making it harder for them to navigate social scenarios and respond to sensory inputs in their surroundings effectively. And in the case of Lacey, as detailed by Clay at this court hearing, she also struggled with agoraphobia.
Clay illustrated how Lacey's increasing agoraphobia gradually confined her to the couch, transforming it into a perceived safe haven from the anxieties of the outside world. Oh, wait, hold on. Are you saying, like, even within our home?
She felt like she couldn't even go to the bathroom because that was outside to her? Yes. Anything, according to Clay, Oh my God. outside or away from the couch on which she sat was too frightening for her. I could see that happening. However, as the parent,
You got to put some fucking effort in. And sort of the last thing I just want to leave off on here with our conversation about autism spectrum disorder is that it's treatable, not hopeless. Yeah. I just want to leave off on that because we're talking about obviously a young woman who, I mean, she had a lot of complexities going on. And one of that was autism spectrum disorder.
But they could have been treated. Her symptoms could have been treated. Yeah. Right? They didn't even try, it seems like. Nope. And Lacey would have had a shot, more than a shot, a likelihood of battling through her various issues had she been provided the help and support she needed and deserved. Especially as an only child. Like you got, you know, not that having a child in general is effortless,
But it's not like she was one of nine and she got, you know, forgotten about by being part of this litter. No, listen, Clay and Sheila were like people of the community. Sheila was a vice mayor. I mean, these vice mayors, evidently, I kind of want to look into it. She was a vice ombudsman. She was an alderman. And that's who you presumably go to for help in navigating situations just like this.
But when it was her own daughter... My God, it's infuriating me right now to think about the fact that she was helping other people figure their shit out and just absolutely decimating her own child's life. Because according to Clay, Lacey rejected all of their attempts at medical and or psychological intervention and as such, hadn't seen anything
any type of doctor, therapist, or educator in over a decade. Yes, so did your son when you tried to take him to the emergency room. Exactly. And this is supported by her medical reports. According to Lacey's case file, her parents took her to a psychologist around 2000 when she was 14. They returned to the same doctor in 2010 without Lacey and told him that she was refusing to leave the house and had begun urinating and defecating on the floor.
The doctor urged them to consider hospitalization and outline the steps that they needed to take to get their daughter the care she desperately needed. But the doctor never saw or heard from the Fletchers ever again. In fact, no doctor had ever seen or heard from them again. The doctor said we should do stuff. We should actually treat her. I'm not into that.
Considering Lacey had reached adulthood, Clay contended that as an adult, she possessed the autonomy to make her own health care decisions, a perspective that he maintained throughout his testimony. So just absolute denial. Denial across the board. Cop out.
But this obviously does raise the question, right? How could Clay perceive a woman in Lacey's condition as being mentally capable of making such critical decisions? Yeah. Addressing these concerns, Clay highlighted moments where Lacey exhibited significant self-sufficiency and decision-making ability. So this was like his defense.
He brings up one scenario in the year 2017 when Lacey dressed herself when Sheila had gone out of town. And he pointed to this instance to showcase that when there was a will, there was a way. So she got off the couch. According to Clay. Got it. So he's basically saying she had the capability if she so desired. So she had the mental wherewithal to decide what she wanted, when she wanted it, or what she didn't want. So if she's refusing medical attention, she's an adult.
we're going to respect her wishes. That probably took a monumental effort on her part, if it happened.
to do that. Yeah, agreed. I mean, I think most of us can appreciate like the complex interplay between respecting individual autonomy and intervening when it seems unlikely that the person in question is capable of making fully informed or safe decisions. Like it bothers me when elderly people like are deprived of their agents, like their decisions are made for them either by their children or whatever, because they're looked at as like weaker or unable to make the decision.
it's not always the case. Listen, if they have like Alzheimer's or dementia, they're not, you know, able to make the decisions, that's a different story. But just like sticking someone in an old age home because you don't want to check up on them when it snows out and you don't want to shovel the fucking driveway. Right.
For me, I'm saying I can appreciate wanting to apply that thinking that like, this is a human being. This is an adult. Let's allow this person to be an adult and make decisions. Like I can understand that. That's not what happened here with Lacey. Oh, no. At all. No, no, no, no. At all.
So what the actual fuck happened? Great question. How did it happen? And why did it happen? What was the cause? And what was the manner? There you go. Why hadn't Lacey Fletcher moved off that couch cushion for at least 12 years?
Well, I think several theories can be considered in understanding the situation, and I've identified four main ones that stand out. This is not an exhaustive list, so you may have additional insights or theories. Chime in. Disagree. Floor is open. Oh, I will. I know. I don't know why I gave you a pass to do it. Please disagree with me. No. Okay, theory one. Lacey was literally, physically unable to move, and there are plenty of people who believe this to be the case.
Evidently, Lacey was posthumously diagnosed with locked-in syndrome, which, if correctly diagnosed, would have caused her to experience near-complete paralysis. Posthumously, huh? What did I say? You said posthumously. It works. I said it? Yeah. You look funny. You look like I didn't say it right. Well, it's posthumously. Fuck. You just come out with it.
There it is. I mean, I didn't hear a word you said after that, so you might want to repeat it. I was like, posthumous. Posthumous. Wait, say it one more time for me. Posthumous. Posthumous.
Evidently, Lacey was posthumously... Okay, just barrel through it. I'm trying. Start after the why. She was diagnosed with locked-in syndrome, okay? Locked-in syndrome, it's real. It's rare, but it's real. You know, I was thinking it sounds made up. I know. That's why I addressed that immediately. That's not even in my script here.
But it's rare. It's a rare neurological condition characterized by complete paralysis of voluntary muscles in nearly all of the body except for those that control eye movement. I don't have it, but I get it. And here's why. So we've been playing a lot of cards at my house. This is actually worrying me. Okay. We've been playing a lot of cards at my house and I've been shuffling a lot. The shuffle and then the bridge. I do a sick bridge. I bet I do it better. Go ahead.
I don't know why I'm like this with you. Why? I don't know. You make these outrageous claims. Okay. But for a while there, I was freezing before letting go of the cards for like two or three seconds. Like I couldn't let go of the cards. Also, I had a catch with my older son and I couldn't throw the ball. I really want you to get checked out. For what? I don't know. What if there is something neurological? Why would you freeze?
I don't know. I have no idea. I know. I don't either. And I think I'd like somebody to tell us why. No, I want to leave right now. Sorry. I'm a doctor. I don't know. I'm a little scared. I don't like the way that sounds. So am I. Okay, sorry. That's why I bring it up. This is different, what I'm talking about. This is full body paralysis. Oh, I'm good. I'm not going to the doctor. Can you please just get it checked out? Who would I even go to? A neurologist. A walk doctor? A neurologist. A neurologist. I'll give you the name. All right, good. Okay.
Individuals with Lockton syndrome are conscious and cognitively intact, but unable to speak or move with their only means of communication typically being blinking or moving their eyes. It's like the video for one by Metallica. Yes. And it's also like a storyline that was in ER, the show from like a thousand years ago where it was Miranda from Sex and the City. And she was, she
She had, I believe, locked-in syndrome or something, but she could hear everything happening around her. She was, you know, able to formulate thoughts. She just could not move or speak. It is being a prisoner in your own body. The condition most commonly results from a stroke that affects the brainstem, specifically the pons, which plays a crucial role in transmitting motor commands.
It can also be caused by other conditions that damage this part of the brain. So if Lacey did indeed suffer from this condition, then she would have been rendered entirely dependent on her parents for care. Who could not be trusted. Exactly. There is a great deal of skepticism, by the way, surrounding this diagnosis in Lacey's case, especially in light of Clay's testimony where he said that when there was a will, there was a way. When Sheila went out of town, she was somehow able to get up and get dressed.
So if that indeed happened, then she didn't have locked-in syndrome because she was moving.
Furthermore, the suggestion that Lacey could ingest couch foam and swallow it suggests the level of physical capability that contradicts the expected paralysis associated with Locton syndrome. Unless they were shoving it in her mouth. Correct. So Dr. Bickham has reportedly challenged this diagnosis of Locton syndrome. Normally, a diagnosis of Locton syndrome is established by a neurologist through comprehensive evaluations. They diagnosed her after death. Oh. Posthumously. Pfft.
Sick. That was nice. Mic drop. How do you assess somebody's brain function after their death? That's Dr. Bickham's point. He didn't fucking, he will do it. He will do it. He will do it. Okay. That was one theory. Yeah. Theory two, Lacey experienced physical restraint during her teenage years and or early twenties, which significantly limited her ability to move and
if such restraint was maintained over a lengthy period of time. It could have resulted in extended periods of immobility, which would have led to muscle atrophy. This condition, characterized by the weakening and wasting away of muscle tissue, would have rendered Lacey physically incapable of movement, irrespective of her willingness or attempts to do so. These, by the way, this isn't a given. Theories. Exactly. All theories. Theory number three.
which Sheila and Clay staunchly defend, posits that Lacey made a conscious decision to remain immobile even though physically she could have moved. The couch became her safe place and she made the choice to never move from it. However, even if we were to accept that she quote-unquote chose not to move for an extended period of 12 years,
This does not absolve her parents of their responsibility to her in spite of the fact that she was an adult presumably deciding not to move.
Okay, theory four. Lacey suffered from severe emotional and psychological symptoms that were so crippling they effectively left her physically immobilized. This perspective, which is nuanced and I'm definitely simplifying here, suggests that her mental health condition manifested in a manner that profoundly inhibited her ability to move. So it's possible that while she might have had the physical capability to move, the
The psychological barriers she faced were insurmountable, rendering her mentally incapable of initiating movement. Oh, man. Very, very complex, I feel like, no matter how you're looking at it. I mean, it's either one or all or an unknown or whatever. Yeah. I mean, the fact remains tragic. Yes. Either way. Beyond. Because, like, let's say she did have locked-in syndrome. Full-blown, 100%, no questions, that was it.
Like, what are you doing as the parent? Exactly. Just walking past your child. Aging. She was 19. Now she's 27. Like, she looks fucking different than when she first sat down. And you don't do anything. I mean...
It's just... It's too much. The bottom line remains, they deliberately chose to let their daughter endure suffering, deterioration, and eventual, inevitable, horrific death. Yeah. No matter how you slice it, Lacey was in a state of vulnerability with her daily spectacle of decline unfolding before their eyes day in and day out, like we said. Yeah.
Yet with chilling regularity, Sheila and Clay opted to take no action, a decision that speaks volumes about their indifference or worse, their intentional cruelty. Well, not only regularly chose not to do anything, constantly chose. Not to like undo or one up your words, but like, I don't, you can't drive the point home enough that let's say how many moments are in a day that
infinite number of moments at any moment during those 12 years you could have gone wait hold on a second we're fucking killing our daughter by not intervening she's vulnerable
Two people, by the way. Well, that makes me think of what we explored in our Kim Kardashian killer clone case. The pair killers. Faliadu. Oh, yeah, Faliadu. Right. Right? Like, just how that, there's like a lead sort of person dealing with mental instability and unwellness, and then a second partner comes in and kind of adopts that thinking. I wonder if one of them tried to help and the other one just, like, bullied them into not helping. Yeah.
We won't know. They maintain the same testimony that they were acknowledging their daughter's wishes to do nothing. Yeah. But their paramount obligation was to fulfill their daughter's essential needs to live. Yeah. Perhaps they were sadists, which we will circle back to because...
This is me, and this is psychopedia. Possibility. The discovery of Lacey nude from the waist down with her shirt pulled up over her head exposing her breasts may suggest a potential desire to demean and humiliate her, which could have been one incident amongst countless others that wove together to create a larger, more sinister pattern of abuse and neglect. Wait, she was naked from the waist down with her shirt pulled over her head? When they found her, yes. She was also...
covered in feces. Yeah, I got that part. I was not going to mention it again. I was just going to say, just adding to what maybe they got off on, the humiliation and degradation. That is... If she's not moving, who's smearing it? I don't know. Listen, I'm in a dark place right now. Let's keep going. Yeah, can you dig us out of it?
Of course, Clay, during his testimony, maintained that he and Sheila deeply loved their daughter and they never wished for her to die. He stated, and this is a quote, looking back, there are many things we would do differently. Understatement of the entire history of the earth. With hindsight being 20-20, it's clear now. This is still his quote. Despite her resistance to assistance, our love for her was unwavering and we never wanted her to die.
End quote. We just wanted to watch her shit on herself. We just wanted to see how long it would take. I mean, what are you actually doing? Following Clay's testimony, a visibly emotional Sheila Fletcher then provided her testimony. In her testimony, when asked if she allowed Lacey to make her own decisions, despite her special needs and deteriorating mental health, which included becoming nonverbal, Sheila simply answered, yes.
She explains her inability to recognize the severity of Lacey's deteriorating condition despite it unfolding before her fucking eyes.
Sort of like the proverbial frog in a boiling pot of water where change occurs so gradually that it's almost imperceptible until it's too late. In this case, it was too late and I'm not buying for one second that she didn't see it. No. Just not. No. Sheila emphasized that it was never her intention to harm or cause the death of her daughter and even mentioned that Lacey never indicated that she was ever in any pain.
Really? She's fucking maggots feeding off of her flesh. There are a lot of different ways to communicate, and getting eaten by maggots is one way to communicate that I'm in a little bit of discomfort here. Correct. Yeah. Meanwhile, if she was nonverbal and unable to move for one reason or another, how exactly was she supposed to communicate her level of pain to Sheila? You know what I mean? If her big argument is, well, she never said she was hurting. Oh.
She's not moving and she's nonverbal. That's your big argument? I mean... She never said anything. Right. In terms of the night of Lacey's tragic death, Sheila recounted that just the day before, Lacey had eaten half a sandwich and a bag of Cheetos. Sheila also firmly maintained that Sheila was still alive at 10 p.m. when she went to bed that night.
Contrary to Sheila's recollection, however, the autopsy report presents a starkly different timeline and reveals that Lacey's death occurred two to three days prior to her being found dead on the couch.
Furthermore, the post-mortem examination revealed that Lacey's stomach contents consisted solely of couch foam and feces with no evidence of the aforementioned sandwich or bag of Cheetos. From that day. What do you think? You're going to pull one up, like pull one over them? Well, these people are obviously out of touch with reality. You're right. Yeah. This stark contradiction obviously casted serious doubts on Sheila's testimony and it instantly brought her credibility into question if it wasn't already because
as it highlighted a significant discrepancy that could not be overlooked. They're saying she ate, and here's the autopsy reports. So legally, what were Sheila and Clay Fletcher facing? Well, initially, Sheila and Clay faced charges of second-degree murder, to which they entered pleas of not guilty. However, these charges were dismissed by District Judge Catherine Betsy Jones due to a technicality involving the wording in their charging documents. Sometimes I hate the law.
Subsequently, on June 19th, they were re-indicted on new charges of manslaughter. In response to these new charges, Sheila and Clay entered pleas that allowed them to avoid a trial without admitting guilt, while still acknowledging the evidence against them might most likely lead to a conviction if the case proceeded to court. Alford plea? Pop quiz. What type of plea is this? A. Best interest plea. Uh-huh.
B, Alford plea. C, no contest. Alford plea. It isn't. It's not fair that I did that to you because it's so close and so subtle and so nuanced, but it's not. I feel like it's up for interpretation. I'm going to explain it. Wait, so what are the other choices? Best interest and... No contest. No contest. Best interest? No.
That's something different. It's a variant of the Alford plea. Yeah, okay. But the answer is no contest. But Alford plea is at the top of the pyramid. Okay. So let's talk about no contest first, okay? Okay. To plead no contest means that the defendants neither dispute nor admit to the charge against them. Okay. Follow me here. This type of plea... They nor admit nor dispute, right? Is that what you said? I said...
To plead no contest means that the defendants neither dispute nor admit to the charge against them. That's what I meant. Yes. I misspoke. Okay. Yeah, I wasn't like making fun of you. I thought you were. I don't know why you would think that. Because it never happens, ever. Okay. This type of plea, known as a nolo contender in legal terms, I'm probably mispronouncing that to be fair, allows the defendants to accept conviction as though a guilty plea had been entered but without admitting guilt to the criminal act.
While the outcome in terms of sentencing can be similar to that of a guilty plea, a no contest plea cannot be used as an admission of guilt in civil litigation that might arise from the same act. So what's the difference between no contest and Alford plea? Yeah. I see you asking me with your eyes slightly annoyed. Both allow a defendant to be convicted without formally admitting guilt, but they differ in how they're used. An Alford plea, in that scenario, a person says,
I'm not saying I did it, but I agree that there's enough evidence against me that I might be found guilty if we go to trial. Okay. It's like accepting a deal because the risk of losing a trial is too high, even though the person still claims that they're innocent. I didn't do it, but I know what it looks like. Exactly. Yeah.
With a no contest plea, a person says, I won't fight this in court, but I'm also not admitting that I did it. They're not saying anything about how strong or weak the evidence is. They're just choosing not to contest the charge. Can I tell you a no contest I saw in action? Yeah.
I was at traffic court. Obviously, you have something to say. You have something to bring to the table. It does not matter. It just doesn't matter what the case is about. It's amazing. Your life experience is amazing. Go ahead. Well, I just, I think I remember a lot where I pick up a lot. So I was at, I was at traffic court, right? This was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. That's why I remember it. Okay.
So I was at traffic court and I was hoping the cop didn't show up, obviously, because if the cop doesn't show up, I don't know if it's like this in every state, but you just automatically win. So there was this young guy in there, cop like this.
sleeping for people who are not watching against the wall, right? Just like fucking hung over or something all disheveled wasn't tucked in. Like, well, thank you. Been in those clothes for three days. So I'm looking at him the whole time. I'm like, what is up with that guy? He's interesting. So the judge calls one of his cases, right? And the guy gets up, shuffles over to the podium or whatever it is. And he's like,
The cop was like, do you have any evidence to support your claim? But yada, yada. And he's like, no, I lost the paperwork or whatever. Right. So he dismisses it. That happens again. He walks up, shuffles up, says he doesn't have anything. Dismissed.
He gets up to walk out of the room to go to the bathroom or something. And the judge goes, I have another one of your cases. Should I just assume it's the... And he goes, and he just walks out. Like, what?
Dude, he can't, there's no way he could be a police officer anymore. No. It was the lowest effort living I had ever seen in my entire life. I mean, what is that? I don't know. He just couldn't be bothered. But he wasn't your cop, right? No, I was inspired by his lack of, you know, organization. He probably looked like a champion going up after that. Much like I feel like a good parent after this episode. Exactly. Exactly right. I felt like, damn, you know what? Maybe I am organized. Because that guy doesn't have any clue what's going on.
He literally waved his hand and went like, Oh my goodness. So funny. So the reason why Sheila and Clay entered a no contest plea, according to Sheila's defense attorney, Stephen Moore, was because they didn't want to relive the pain of losing a child through the media. They have been through a lot of heartache over the years. Anyone who has lost a child knows what it's like. And to that point, yes, I'm sure it was the culmination of...
whatever. Like I think people do things never considering the consequences or what could actually happen. Then when they actually happen, they go, Oh my God, what have I been doing? But,
I mean, the answer to what have I been doing is you've been slowly not killing your child, but letting your child die in front of you, which in some ways to me is worse. It's just so against nature, you know? To not intervene? Exactly. It's like humanity nature, not even just like parental, you know, what's innate in parents to protect and preserve. Oh, yeah. But it's humanity. Like to see a human being suffer like...
This woman tank melted into the couch. Yeah. And her parents watched.
I don't know. I know. Did they sit on the couch next to her and watch TV? Well, that's the thing. The rest of the house was immaculate. Except for her seat. Which was filled with liquid shit. But, I mean, it's still like, it's like smoking, non-smoking area. Yes, that's so well said because the coroner said that. He said that he had, I believe it was the coroner who said this. I don't even know how Sheila and Clay lived in that house. The odor. The odor.
that was permeating everywhere was unbearable, unlivable. So maybe they weren't. I mean... Hey, we're the real victims here. Our house stunk. Yeah. Okay? He ruined our couch. Fuckers.
In terms of the manslaughter charge, that implies legal responsibility for Lacey's death under circumstances that are considered less culpable than murder. Meaning Lacey's death was unintended and resulted from negligence without premeditation. According to attorney Stephen Moore, who represented Sheila, quote, they loved her to death and that is the true statement of what the Fletchers are. I mean, that's literally what they did. The things that happened to Lacey are horrible in the way it worked out, but they cared for her daily.
Although the Fletchers opted out of a trial by entering a no contest plea, the prosecution nevertheless presented hours of detailed and graphic testimony during the sentencing hearing, a move that is uncommon for such proceedings. But this approach was driven by a unanimous desire among all involved in this horrible case from the investigators to the advocates to the medical examiner to ensure that Lacey received her rightful day in court. Yeah.
Moreover, there was a collective intention to convey a strong message to the community, which was the appalling abuse and neglect evident in this case is utterly unacceptable and would be met with stringent legal repercussions. And y'all kind of fucked up too. Yeah. They did. I mean. You're not on trial.
But you kind of, like, you guys dropped the ball in a fucking major way. Human beings listening to this. You're in communities, you're in neighborhoods, you're in apartment buildings, you're in houses, whatever. Yeah. Please take care of each other. We have to. We have to rely on each other. I know, like, shit.
shit isn't what it used to be nobody's knocking on doors anymore asking for sugar you know kids less and less are going out riding bikes nobody's asking for gluten free bread do you have any almond flour but please don't neglect like basic humanity if something is like if your spidey tingle is going off spidey tingle is going off do something move a muscle that's it that's my PSA
So the central issue that prosecutors aim to address at the sentencing hearing, which again was atypical, but they were doing this, was to unravel the very perplexing circumstances under which Clay and Sheila Fletcher permitted their daughter to endure such profound suffering. Meanwhile, my own pressing inquiry leans more towards unraveling the motive behind their actions. Like, essentially, why? Why? Why?
Because despite the exhaustive efforts and detailed testimonies, much about the underlying reasons and motivations remains to me enigmatic, right? I know that they're saying they wanted to respect her wishes as an adult. I'm not buying it. No, it's a lie. I want to really know, you know? Supporters of Sheila and Clay, along with their defense team, say that the Fletchers believe that by adhering to her desires for complete isolation...
that they were honoring her autonomy and decisions. And we know this. We've said this already in the case. Now, the defense also suggested the situation was far more complex than initially perceived. Brandon Romano, who's a clinical psychologist from Baton Rouge and the sole defense witness...
reviewed case files, and engaged in extensive discussions with the Fletchers. And he observed no signs of emotional coldness or any intention to inflict harm on Lacey. Furthermore, he also asserted that neither parent suffered from significant mental health issues. Rather, Romano characterized the Fletcher's behavior as stemming from something else.
Pop quiz. Oh, right. What did he indicate the Fletchers suffered from, which caused the tragic outcome of their daughter's death? Yeah. A, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Okay. B, factitious disorder. C, caregiver superiority complex. That last one sounds pretty aggressive. Munchausen, factitious disorder, and the other one, factitious. No. Okay.
Yeah, all right. False-ishness.
I mean, go with your gut. Munchausen. No, that's not your gut. It was my gut. It was your gut. It's the one that you said sounded aggressive. But caregiver superiority syndrome or whatever? That's what he's saying. According to Dr. Romano, Sheila and Clay firmly believed in their superior ability to care for Lacey. Oh, oh, I did not understand what caregiver superiority was. I guess I should have maybe explained each one and then had you take a stab at it, but
He's saying that they believed that they had a superior ability to care for their daughter, surpassing even trained professionals, despite their own lack of medical or caregiving, or apparently having eyes in their fucking face to see what was going on. They still knew best. That's what he's saying that they experienced.
He highlighted how Lacey's conditions overwhelmed any parental concerns they may have had and trapped them in a cycle of learned helplessness and compliance with her preferences. Clay's attorney, John McClendon, went on to remark the following, I
I've talked to several mothers of special needs children, and they all say, unless you've lived it, you don't know what it's like. We can all sit here and look at this, but unless you've gone through it with a special needs child, you don't know what it's like. End quote. He acknowledged, however, that even the Fletchers admitted their mistake in not seeking help sooner. Yeah. Really bothers me. That whole statement really bothers me. Let me just do something for a second, okay? Yeah, you're going to like my next question. Oh, okay, do it.
I would like to know something, Tank. Sure. Were Sheila and Clay doing the best they could with the tools they had? I'm not being... That's a good question. ...picky. Well, what I was just about to ask was, and by the way, I have a whole thing for that.
I didn't realize what it was called. It's called determinism, the way I see things. And you're more of a free will person. And I'm a free will person too, but determinism leads up to free will and then they overlap and sometimes whatever. Like a Venn diagram. Yeah, but I think I believe the overlap is smaller and you believe it's bigger. Probably not by much. Okay. Like not much of a difference between our two whatever's.
So what I was going to say is I wonder if devil's advocate, it's possible that every day that went by, they said, we should really do something. You know what? She says she doesn't want help. Like I don't want to violate her autonomy as a human being. She's obviously in a lot of pain, but she would say something if she wanted help. And day by day, moment by moment, as time does do,
It flies by looking back on it in retrospect. I don't know. Like when you see somebody who, who loses 40 pounds, right. When you haven't seen them in six months, it's drastic to you. Yeah. Yeah.
I know from experience, I don't feel any different. I feel different. I feel a little bit lighter, but I feel like I look exactly the same in the mirror because I watched every eighth of a pound to come off my body. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm just, I mean, listen, bottom line is just like we say with people who are, you know, if I was drinking and I killed somebody in a car accident, whether I'm blacked out or not, or I remember it,
I'm still culpable for the act as a human being. So whether they were doing their best or not. I mean, I can believe it when like a baby has a fever, let's say, and you're watching it and it's climbing, but you're not like immediately going to urgent care or the ER or whatever. You're watching it. It's climbing. Oh, it's a little higher than it was before you do some cold compress, whatever, whatever.
And then all of a sudden the baby has 104 and is like not responding, God forbid. You know what I mean? And you're rushed. I can understand when the climb is more of a spike. Yeah. I cannot understand 12 years of maggots eating away at a flattened tailbone and skin melting into a couch and
I can't. No, I'm not saying it's good. No, I know. I'm just saying. Like, I have a situation right now where I did an ad for a company and the ad didn't perform well because the ad kind of was not great, in my opinion.
So I haven't reached out to them for payment. And it's almost like, is it too long that's gone by? Or am I like, am I still within the window of being able to go, Hey, you know, what's, what's happening with that ad? Am I getting paid for it or not? 12 years could go by.
And I'm still thinking about it. I know. I know. I'm not saying it's likely or probable or okay or any of those things. Or comparable because it's. It's not. Right. I'm just saying like. You're trying to. Listen, I'm all for trying to see the other side of things. These people. These people to me, I'm doing what you do. Yeah. With the whole monster serial killer thing. Well, that's what I'm. I'm here for it. I am. These people are scarier to me than somebody who plans a six month murder run. Mm-hmm.
Because they decided not to act instead of, you know, people who decide to act. That's one thing. Deciding not to act is a whole other decision making process. You're right. But I like how you're trying to understand them. And that's why I said my big burning question is why? Because if we can understand that, then maybe we can understand what happened a little bit better, you know?
So there are some questions that remain in terms of the timeline of events, like, you know, when she received care last, whether she made her own decisions or not, whether she was well attended to until 2021, because according to Sheila and Clay, after 2021 is when she really deteriorated or
Yes. Yes.
In fact, the judge even made the following statement at sentencing, which we're getting to now. She said, we can argue about whether or not this process took three months, six months, or three years. I don't really care. This was a tragedy. The truth is that Lacey laid on a couch and slowly died because she got no medical or mental health care.
On Wednesday, March 20th, 2024, District Judge Catherine Betsy Jones. Oh, that was like a week ago. I know. That's why I was saying people who are like on the up with true crime or have been reading just headlines may have heard of this case. And it's okay if you haven't. Yeah. She sentenced Sheila and Clay Fletcher to 40 years in prison with 20 of those years suspended. While handing down their sentence, Judge Jones said it was unlawful
unquestionable that Lacey was gravely disabled and that her parents should have overruled Lacey's wishes and forced her to seek professional help. Instead, quote, the actions that the Fletchers took enabled Lacey to indulge and slowly wallow in her mental health symptoms. They had a responsibility to make the hard decisions to at least try to force Lacey to get the help she needed. And yet, Clay and Sheila Fletcher continually chose the path of
of least resistance. So before we draw to a close, let's just take a moment to reflect on the essence of Lacey Fletcher, who she was as a human being beyond the inhumane, tragic circumstances of her final days, because unfortunately she will forever be known as
as the woman who melted. By all accounts from those who knew Lacey during childhood, she possessed a vibrant and whimsical personality. She loved Disney movies, country music, and Mariah Carey. Her life once brimmed with activities like bowling, volleyball, emailing with friends, and leisurely strolls in her neighborhood holding dumbbells.
Lacey's zest for life was unmistakable, a testament to the potential for happiness and fulfillment that with the right medical and psychological conditions,
and developmental support could have led her down a vastly different path. So to wrap it all up, it's imperative to acknowledge the somber reality that Lacey Fletcher, a person endowed with inherent potential and value, was tragically disregarded and neglected. Lacey was systematically deprived of fundamental care, love, and dignity that every child, I don't care age, rightfully expects and deserves from their parents.
And that's the case that haunts me. Wow. So 40 years in prison, 20 of them suspended. Yeah. Hopefully they die in prison. I mean, whatever. No, I know. I know what you mean. It's a safe place for me. That's a whole other level of, I don't even know what the word is. Diabolical implies action again. Thank you for sacrificing your sanity this week for the research of this case.
My pleasure. It sounds shitty to say that, but... My pleasure. I don't know what to say to that. It was not fun. This is heartbreaking, but I am fascinated by the human psychology, and I am here to deliver the content to our listeners, and I'm proud to be in a position to do it. Yes. Well, if you listened to the episode and you made it this far, we really appreciate you. Yes, we do. You are a real one, Megs. And Megs and all the others who are out there still listening right now. And if you made it this far, listen.
Subscribe, rate, review. It helps so much more than you can imagine. You, individual person listening right now who is not reviewed, not subscribed, not rated. It does help us tremendously. So if you love us and you want to help us, help us. If you don't, just keep listening. That's totally fine too.
It's time for Tank's Titties. Yeah. All right. So I heard something today on a podcast where the guy essentially said he was, you know, it's the same thing, the older person bemoaning the younger generation. Your biggest pet peeve. It's up there for sure. And he was basically saying, like, he's got a company and he has employees and he doesn't know exactly what all of them are paid, but he knows a hell of a lot more than he was getting paid when they were at their age. And it's like...
Yeah, dude. It was 30 years ago. Why wouldn't they be getting paid more? A fucking candy bar doesn't cost a nickel anymore, dude. Sorry. Was he not accounting for inflation? It didn't sound like it. Oh, man. Just like, you know, they're getting paid more than I did. Like, they should be happy I'm giving them what they got.
That mentality, I mean, it's the epitome of somebody who, and this is my least favorite type of person, a person who changes their life drastically, goes from point A to point B and doesn't remember at all how they got to point B. And then to take it one step further, they judge those who are still at point A as less capable, less deserving, more entitled, whatever. Like I went from point A to point B
And I remember almost everything that went right, wrong, indifferent. I kept notes the entire time of pitfalls I came up against, emotional, financial, whatever. And I remember I could walk anybody through going from point A to point B. And I just don't understand how people forget it. So the tank's tidbits was time does grade the details, but it doesn't grade the emotions.
So you may not remember things correctly. You don't remember what you did, but you remember how it made you feel. Exactly. Or you don't remember what someone did exactly, but you remember how it made you feel. Yeah, I love it. So that guy just looking with the opposite of rosy glasses. I don't know what the opposite is. I was thinking during this, like I got to come up with a word for it. Why don't we say gray tinted glasses? Because that's like wah, wah. Gray colored glasses. Yeah. Yeah, let's do gray. All right, good. You fucking gray tinted glass wearing motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah.
Get real, get honest, look back with no emotion attached to it and try and see that other people, you're in your life, right? You are born and you're going to die. You're at this point in your life. They're in theirs. So like have a little understanding, compassion for people who are not as far as you. I don't know. That's one thing I don't have tolerance for is people who lack compassion. Very successful guy, by the way. And people look to him for like,
inspirational type of content. And I don't, I've never bought it from this guy. He launched his podcast. I was like, really? And whatever. Yeah. I don't care what you have to say. If you, if you're not empathic, you would say empathetic, compassionate. I don't see you. I don't want to see you. Yeah.
Well, we see what we want. We saw your pink titty, so thanks for sharing that. No problem. It was my pleasure. So listen, again, thanks for listening. We will see you guys at the next episode next week. Thank you, guys. Bye. Bye.
