EP60: Toolbox Killers 01:16:36

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Say Garth. Say your name. Investigators later. Yeah, Bodacious Blonde. What is this? You're very blonde today. I am very blonde today. Oh, shit. Oh, that's what that was? Yes. All right. I'm very blonde because I finally got my hair did. Yeah. Finally.

It was like two weeks ago you got your hair did last night. I do a lot of different things to my hair. Color, I went too long on. Yeah. So I spent like half a day at the salon. I was going to mention something. You weren't. No, I was not. I did notice your hair was blonder today. Yes, you did. Yeah, I'm good. I notice things. I know. I know, it is. It's perfect.

Yeah. All right, y'all. What's up? We're about to get into a new episode. It's going to be all voices this episode. I'm a little worried. It's going to be all voices. No, it's not. It's not. That's so annoying when people do that. Impersonations. Unless it's Britney Spears coming for me, which is happening. Yeah.

Yeah, okay. I'll believe that when I hear it. Okay. Yeah, impersonations are just like, they're fun to hear like once and then if it becomes somebody's whole personality, I'm just not into it. No offense to anybody who does impersonations. I just did one. You did multiple impersonations. It just reminds me of Andy from The Office. It's like, dude, be yourself. Oh, Andy Bernard. He's so funny though. Yeah.

But part of his funniness is the cringe of him never speaking normally. Right. But we're here to do a true crime comedy episode. And I will be speaking normally. Yes, you will. And I am so excited to hear about it. I know nothing, obviously. Per usual. Again, we're on video because we're doing this new thing. And if you're listening, and let's say you're a listener. You just listen to podcast episodes. Right.

The episode's going to be on YouTube. If we start talking about something that's visually appealing and you want to see what we're talking about, jump on over to YouTube. You can go right back to audio. There's no rules. No rules at all. We're not going to be watching anybody. And you can check it up. Like one week you can watch on YouTube. One week you can listen on audio. Yeah. Maybe Friday night you sit down with a bucket of popcorn in the Dune memorabilia popcorn bucket, which has become a bit of a thing on the internet. I don't know if you've heard about that. I'm not really on the internet. It looks like a flashlight. A what? Yeah.

Oh, God, nothing. I don't even know where I heard that word. I don't know. But yeah, sit down with a nice bucket of popcorn. Movie salad. Movie salad, which is popcorn and M&M's. Raisin' M's. Only popcorn and M&M's. Raisin' M's. Only. And watch a full episode of us on YouTube. Let us spend your Friday night with you. Would love it. Hi. Hi. Happy Friday.

So listen, we're going to get into an episode. If you love us, okay, let's just assume, okay, big assumption, but let's assume that you love us.

and you want a little bit more of what we do here, you go to patreon.com slash psychopediapod, and we do unhinged episodes there, and we are going to very soon start a whole extra episode. So the unhinged is at the Seaman Demon level. The new episode, the bonus true crime episode, is going to be for all levels. Right. Little Freaks and Seaman Demons. Shout out to Steven Demons. Right.

It's a new thing. Yes, it is. I'm very excited about that. I don't really have much to say this week. I kind of just want to hear about this case that you have said so many times. My true crime people are going to know this one. It's a truly horrific case. I know that I kind of start every case by saying that, and every case really is horrific, but this one? Well, I know the level of horrificness by how soon you start telling me that it's going to be horrific. You've been...

saying this one is going to be horrific for like two weeks. Well, I've been researching it for that long. It's a long one because it's really involved and it went over. Well, you're going to see. You're going to see. I don't want to say too much right now. Yeah. But it's really, really bad. Yeah. It's really tragic, really heartbreaking, really brutal. Again, my true crime people are going to know it once I start. Okay. But you don't. I'm not going to know about it? Nope. You're not going to know it until we... I mean, you won't know anything about this. How impressed would you be if I knew this case? You referenced...

Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Yeah, yeah. And I almost fell out of my chair. I know. I mean. Like when you know true crime and it's not anything that I brought to you or that we've covered, it's impressive. You know what? I've had that experience before with someone who I know doesn't like rap at all. And they know who Jay-Z is. It's like, or sports. Like I don't know any sports people. I know who LeBron James is though, obviously. Yeah, I feel like when I quote Jay-Z or something, you're always like, wow.

I know. So this is my version of that when you know something. Oh, let's fucking go. Without further ado, Z, let's hear about this horrific case you've got planned for us. All right, let's go.

For those of you who don't know what hell is like, you will find out. These chilling cautionary words were spoken to a captivated jury by a prosecutor named Stephen Kay on January 29th, 1981, just moments before he unveiled 17 agonizing minutes of brutal audio that captured the relentless abuse of a 16-year-old girl.

Over 100 souls bore witness to this recording within the solemn walls of that Los Angeles courtroom as the tape's haunting sounds filled the air. The emotional upheaval it triggered was overwhelming. Jurors, court staff, and spectators alike were moved to tears or actually forced to flee the room, unable to stomach the ruthlessness of the recording in its entirety. That would be me. I'd run out. 100%. Yeah. And there'd be no shame in that.

The psychological toll exacted by this audio evidence was profound, to say the least, and left a permanent mark on every single person present that day, except for the two perpetrators responsible for creating it. I hate them already. So in like an opening statement, the attorney said, for those of you who don't know what hell is like, listen up, basically. Yeah, like brace for impact. That's a strong opening statement.

The perpetrator sat there unflinchingly smiling as the screams of their victim echoed throughout the room. Pieces of garbage. You don't even realize yet how big. Big trash.

We, dear listeners and my macro host, are about to embark on a journey that promises to be equally unbearable. This case will plunge us into the abyss of pure wickedness and will compel us to face the monstrous capabilities that lurk within our shared humanity. So heed this trigger warning if it wasn't clear already. Use this trigger warning to get rid of the abyss of pure wickedness.

Your DNA will be altered by this case. Oh, wow. I can't. I just want to tell you that you're going to emerge a different person after we finish this case, okay? The agony of this story, let me just put this in terms that you will really understand, feels like a fusion of the Junko Furuta case, the unspeakable suffering that she endured, and David Parker Ray's sheer creative evil.

The toy box killer. Oh, fuck. Well, I'm just going to dissociate. Okay. That's okay. I'll suck you back in because we got pop quizzes to do that. Okay, good. All right. Go hug someone you love, a pet, and prepare to bid farewell to the person you once were. Because today, we are covering the case of a notorious, depraved, sadistic serial killer team known as the Toolbox Killers. Whoa. Yeah.

Yeah. So toolbox, toy box. Similar. Yeah. Yep. That's why I mentioned that there are elements that are going to sort of click as being disgustingly familiar to an extent. And good news for your ADD, Tink, we are jumping around the timeline today and we're going to start in the middle. Oh, great. I know. Even better. In 1977 at the California Men's Colony Prison in San Luis Obispo,

What? Did I say that right? We just went over that. I know, but I forgot. Abyspo. Hold on, hold on. You know I have to do it phonetically. Let's just, we're going to leave that in. So just move on from the sentence, if you don't mind, because we're keeping that in for sure. All right. Now where do I start? The middle of the sentence? Just keep going? Just start from Abyspo. Okay.

Let's pick it right back up from... I've got a lot. I've got to like think about doing these cases. I know. And I meant to practice that word. It's all right. Don't worry about it. We're all friends here. Two incarcerated men named Lawrence Bitteker and Roy Norris found themselves crossing paths. Lawrence was serving time for assault with the attempt to commit murder while Roy was locked up for a series of violent crimes against women, including rape. Wow, a couple.

Wow, a couple of winners. Yep. Slowly, because when you're on the inside, you've got nothing but time, their relationship gradually evolved from mere acquaintanceship to friendship. They became besties? They did. They actually did. They became Obispo besties? Besties? Obispo besties. Yes. Yep.

Roy, who sold contraband drugs to some of the most hardened criminals inside the prison, also taught Lawrence how to make jewelry. And on two separate occasions, Lawrence even saved Roy from being attacked by other inmates. So you're making jewelry one minute and beating the shit out of other people the other minute? Like, it's bonding. People have interests. These acts of loyalty and shared endeavors not only demonstrated their growing trust, but also laid the foundation for a deeper connection.

By 1978, their friendship was officially on solid ground, and the two criminals began to confide in each other their deepest, darkest, most depraved thoughts. They were really bonding. You could say that, yeah.

As fate would have it, Lawrence and Roy discovered that they harbored identical sick fantasies and were united by a disturbing fascination with sexual violence. Listen, let me tell you something. Not sexual violence, but there's nothing like meeting somebody who is sick.

sick in the exact same way you're sick. Crazy attracts crazy. You've said that to me before. No, no, not crazy, but just like everyone's got a little sickness. Mm-hmm. It's true. So when you find somebody who matches it, it's like, yo, we are. You can't tell anybody. What's that expression? Oh, when you find somebody whose baggage matches your baggage. Yeah.

So Roy told Lawrence that he found frightened young women extremely stimulating, hence his long rap sheet for committing sexual crimes, and that seeing fear in his victims' eyes while sexually assaulting them is what he thrived on. Lawrence, contributing his own macabre thoughts, mentioned that if he were ever to sexually assault a woman, he would kill her to ensure that there would be no witness left behind,

a concept that until now Roy had not considered but recognized as a simple yet effective strategy to avoid future capture. So the one guy was like, hey man, I kill him so that they can't tell anybody. And the other guy was like,

Why didn't I think of that? Yes. Well, Lawrence, with his IQ of 138. Oh, he's a genius. Brought a cold and calculated intellect to their heinous discussions and laid out a blueprint, a literal plan of attack that would be executed upon their release from prison. Was it blueprint one, blueprint two, or blueprint three? Sorry. Wow.

I can't believe I didn't think that you were going to pull a Jay-Z line after I said blueprint. Yeah, I mean, I have to. Yeah, I get it.

So they're basically putting their heads together and coming up with a plan for when they both get out. And that horrific plan was quite specific and went like this. I thought they were just talking shit. No. They've got a plan going. Well, I said blueprint. I meant it. Yeah, but I thought maybe they were having pipe dream fantasies about killing and getting out and whatever. So, okay. Well, obviously we wouldn't be talking about them if they didn't get out. So I will shut the fuck up. So this was their plan, okay? Roy and Lawrence intended to rape...

What the fuck?

From the methods of abduction to the various forms of sexual violence and torture they intended to inflict, everything was carefully plotted, including the eventual murder of their victims and method of body disposal. Lawrence Bitteker was paroled first on October 15, 1978.

He returned to Los Angeles to work as an aircraft mechanic, a job that earned him a six-figure income in 1978. Wow, that guy was crushing it. Yet, despite his handsome salary, Lawrence chose to live in seclusion and often resided in a motel.

Who does that remind you of? Who has loads of money and chooses to live in muck and off the grid? Elon Musk? No. Just kidding. I can't stop thinking about the handsome salary. Shout out to my sister, the younger one. She road rules challenge. They would do this intro and be like, where they compete for their handsome reward. And we used to hate it.

And then one day she goes, they might as well just say where they compete for their very organized reward. Like, what the fuck? Just throw in any adjective. Handsome has never made any sense to me whatsoever. Okay. I mean, it does make sense and it is a word, but it's okay if it doesn't make sense for you. I'm sorry I used it. No, it's okay. It's just funny. Okay. But who does it remind you of? I mean it. I'm actually asking you. Somebody who lives off the grid and has, oh, yeah.

Willie Pickton. Yes. Yes. Very, very good. While awaiting Roy Norris' release, Lawrence Bitteker got to know the local teenagers and strategically kept alcohol and marijuana on hand to attract them. Conveniently, the motel where he was living was situated next door to a liquor store, further providing access to young people looking to party. This strategy of socializing with teenagers laid the groundwork for the moment Roy would be released, which occurred on January 14th, 1979.

And together, the men were immediately poised to commence their meticulously planned plan of attack, a grim reality that sadly unfolded just as they had envisioned. The fact that I know that they're doing it is bad enough, but I'm sure because you are who you are, you're going to give all the details and I would like to not be here for that. Okay. I'll let you know when it happens. You can step out. Okay. Perfect.

Before we get into some of the worst forms of abuse and violence I have ever come across, let's learn a little bit about these two assholes, Lawrence and Roy.

So sad.

There was a little geographic instability as his father, George, worked in aircraft factories, which necessitated frequent moves for the entire family across several states from Pennsylvania to Florida, Ohio, and ultimately California.

which reminds me a little bit of Jerry Brudos, if you remember, right? Like they moved around a lot in his early childhood. Yeah. Yet despite the outward signs of a loving and financially secure upbringing, Lawrence felt detached from his parents, more like a tenant than a son. That was like his word.

Between experiencing a sense of alienation from his birth parents and a sense of detachment from his adoptive parents, Lawrence consistently grappled with deep-seated abandonment issues throughout most of his life. Yeah, it's a tough spot. It is, especially after his adoptive family chose to disown him after he began getting into trouble with the law.

So essentially, by the time Lawrence met Roy in the California men's colony in 1977, he found himself utterly isolated.

with no familial support to speak of. I mean, listen, it's one thing to be given up for adoption by your biological parents. Did he know why he was given up for adoption? All the sources just say that his biological parents literally said, we just don't feel like being parents. Yeah. Whether or not he knew that at this point is different than him living with a family and then getting into trouble because he's a troubled kid, potentially.

potentially and being abandoned. Right. That's fucked up. Those parents, no. Well, whatever. It depends on... Yeah. Well, no, it doesn't because if you adopt a child, you adopt a child. You don't adopt a child that acts the way you want it to act. They didn't disown him in childhood. Listen, I'm not approving abandoning a child at all. However, yeah, I can't... I'm sure it wasn't easy. I can't imagine being in their position knowing what he went on to do. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's tough.

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From a young age, Lawrence showed a tendency towards delinquency and first got into legal trouble for shoplifting at just 12 years old. This criminal behavior persisted and led to multiple arrests for the same offense over the following four years. Reflecting on this period later in life, Lawrence suggested that his shoplifting was an attempt to fill the emotional void left by his parents' lack of affection and

Moreover, he confessed that stealing filled him with a sense of importance. We've talked about shoplifting before, you and I, as a crime. It's a tough, compulsive behavior slash addiction to get over. Yeah. A

A lesser known aspect about Lawrence's teenage years was his propensity for voyeurism, peeping into the windows of unsuspecting individuals. Now, this behavior aligns with a pattern observed among serial killers, not all of them, but many of them, which we've talked about before, where such acts stem from a deep-seated psychological need for power, control, and dominance. Engaging in voyeurism allows these people to indulge their fantasies from a safe distance without the risk of immediate repercussions, like getting caught.

So scary. However, as their craving for more direct forms of dominance intensifies...

These early voyeuristic behaviors often escalate into more aggressive and violent acts. So it's like a stepping stone. Yeah. In spite of his high IQ, Lawrence did not perform well at school and got bored very quickly. A classic sign of psychopathy and his need for stimulation and having a higher threshold for experiencing excitement. I wonder if that's why peeping toms are taken so seriously. Yeah, sure. Obviously, it's an invasion of privacy and all that.

but they go pretty hard on that type of offender. Well, it is. It's a violation. It's a violation. But what I'm saying is that like, I guess the sequence of events that they've seen it come to. Where it can lead. Where it can lead. Yeah. It's like a gateway crime. Yeah. Right. Anyway, crime. It's a process addiction. I'm melding worlds now. Wow. I like it. I like it a lot.

Lawrence eventually dropped out of high school in 1957 and continued to wander around the country. And I say continued because that's kind of how he was throughout childhood with his parents, moving around a lot.

And as he did that, his criminal record continued to grow, with charges escalating from shoplifting to more serious offenses such as hit-and-run, auto theft, evading arrest, and robbery. Following his arrest for robbery in May of 1961, a psychiatric evaluation uncovered his quote-unquote considerable concealed hostility and manipulative nature, markers of psychopathy.

This assessment also noted signs of paranoia and borderline psychotic behavior. And then after that, a subsequent psychological evaluation a year later identified him as having poor impulse control. So these are not great ingredients we're working with. Especially for someone of that age where they have so much room to get worse. Exactly. Then in 1974, Lawrence went on to commit his most serious offense until that point.

Alright. Could have just got free with the steak, brother. Right.

Okay, so he either stabbed somebody after he stuck a stake down his pants, stuff a stave. You got it. Wow. What was the first one? Stealing a car and he hit a mother pushing a stroller. Jerking off in front of a car of teenagers at a drive-in movie theater. I'm going to go with C. No. Wow, you did your homework on that one. All right.

Do you want to know why you shouldn't announce your thought process when you're answering questions? I have different things pointed out. Yeah, I know. Like for these. And then I thought about it. I'm like, oh, you know how he's going to back into this? He's going to think of his prior crimes. Keeping Tom. Exactly. And what fits and what doesn't. So I made sure that each one fit his pattern of behavior. Great job. So then, A? No. No. You fucking got me again because of the car heist. Because he was stealing cars. Yeah.

So he stuffed a stake down his pants and stabbed the employee when he tried to stop him? Yes. Having missed the man's heart by one centimeter. Oh, I thought you were going to say inch. No. For our international listeners, centimeter, as you know, is very small. Very, very small. Slater small. Yes. Lawrence was charged with attempted murder and shoplifting, but was ultimately convicted of the lesser charge of assault with a deadly weapon. In spite of all of

these red flags, including multiple concerning psychiatric evaluations and escalating run-ins with the law, Lawrence Bitteker was paroled in October 1978 and fully free by November 1978, so a month later.

But it was during that incarceration for the steak stabbing where Lawrence met Roy and laid the gruesome groundwork for one of the most devastating chapters in serial killer history. If he was a vegetarian, this never would have happened. I mean, I'm saying, you know.

So that's Thing 1's backstory. Let's move on to Thing 2. Oh, I like what you're doing. Roy Lewis Norris was born out of wedlock on February 5th, 1948 in Greeley, Colorado, which was a big deal at the time, which is why I mentioned it. Oh, yeah. I mentioned it not because I think it's a big deal, but because at the time it was.

His father worked in a scrapyard while his mother, a housewife, struggled with drug addiction. Basic necessities like food and clothing were scarce, leading to Roy's frequent moves between various foster homes. Additionally, the times he did spend with his biological parents were marred by his grandparents' constant belittlement and degradation of his mother in Roy's presence.

This toxic family environment likely contributed to the development of his negative attitudes towards women and girls. In one of the foster homes, Roy indicated that he suffered sexual abuse, though he has never provided specific details in terms of exactly when it happened and who the perpetrator was, but it is believed to have actually happened.

And this distressing experience is thought to have played a significant role in his evolution into a sexual sadist. Now, it's important to recognize that obviously not all individuals who experience sexual abuse in childhood develop such tendencies. But in Roy's case, there does appear to be a notable link.

Generally, childhood trauma is associated with an increased risk of developing personality disorders and engaging in criminal activity later in life, which just underscores the impact early experiences can have on future behavior. It is not to suggest that everyone goes through that. As a teenager, Roy Norris displayed early signs of sexual deviance, including making a sexual advance towards his cousin.

This behavior aligns with the whole cycle of abuse, which we've often talked about, where an abused child may internalize trauma, potentially normalizing abusive behaviors or seeking to regain lost power and control. So he was sexually abused as a child, and then he went on to make a pass at his cousin.

It's a delicate landscape, I feel like, to say the least. For sure. Then at age 16, Roy attempted to take his own life by driving his father's car up into the Rocky Mountains and injecting air into an artery in his arm. Well, hold on. Rocky Mountains? Altitude? Or that was a coincidence? I couldn't say. You couldn't inject air into your arm at sea level? Anyway. Okay.

I was just trying to figure out why you mentioned the Rocky Mountains. Oh, just to suggest that he took himself in the middle of nowhere, isolated. He stole his father's car and he tried to inject air into an artery, which is, if you remember, Lucy Letby. Yeah. It was one of her ways of killing those poor babies.

Police eventually found Roy after his father reported his car missing, and the police returned Roy back to his parents, whose only response to the suicide attempt was to inform Roy and his sister that neither of them had been wanted children and that they planned to divorce once both of the kids reached adolescence. Very cool parenting technique. So this is...

You know, at this point, I feel so terrible for him. One year later, Roy dropped out of high school early, enlisted in the United States Navy, and got out of Dodge. He spent four months in Vietnam, though did not engage in active combat, which does not discount the profound impact that the war's horrors likely had on him.

It was there that Roy was introduced to heroin, which led to a swift descent into addiction. Ultimately, military psychologists cited psychological problems and a severe schizoid personality as reasons for an administrative discharge.

Upon Roy's return to the U.S., specifically to Southern California in 1969, his life took a very dark turn into hardcore criminality. Once back on U.S. soil, Roy almost immediately attacked a female taxi driver and tried to rape her. Three months later, he attacked another woman who managed to call the police before he could finish the assault. Then, in May of 1969...

Roy stalked a young female student at San Diego University and bashed her head with a rock repeatedly until she fell to her knees. Then he proceeded to smash her head against the sidewalk over and over and over again.

The woman incredibly survived and Roy served five years at the Atascadero State Hospital, having been deemed a mentally disordered sex offender in need of treatment. Two things. First of all, can't believe you could say Atascadero, but you couldn't say Obispo. Second thing is, have you seen what's going on in New York City with women being punched in the face? What? While looking at their phones? No. It's like some weird thing going on. What? I saw three different TikTok videos.

They all came out around the same time. They all got punched in the head. It's not one person. Is it like a fad? You know what I mean? No, I think it's like they all described the person differently. So I don't think it was one person going around and doing it. My God. But very strange time. So if you're in New York City and you're a woman, I mean, obviously you have to be on guard most of the time anyway. Just put the phone away. Oh my God. Yeah.

Upon his release five years later, Roy was considered no further danger to others. Wow. And that's a quote. Yeah. Until that is three months later when he raped a 27-year-old woman in the woods and strangled her to the point of unconsciousness. Yeah, we meant no further harm to others except... Except for everything he's going to go on to do. Oh my God.

Roy was arrested for that rape after the survivor amazingly recognized his motorcycle one month later and notified law enforcement. Oh, my God. And that's when he was sent to the Men's Colony Prison in San Luis Obispo and was introduced...

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're too kind. And that's when he was introduced to Lawrence Bittiger. All right. So now we are essentially in present times in the case. Okay. Which is 1979. Lawrence and Roy have both been released from prison and they're together in Los Angeles, California. So we started from the middle and we went around for Roy and then another way for Lawrence Bittiger. Okay. Now we're now we're present times present day. Okay. Okay.

The men quickly purchased a 1977 GMC nondescript gray windowless cargo van with a huge sliding door on the passenger side to make abducting teenage girls that much easier. Imagine going to the car dealership and being like, all right, I need something that can really snatch up the most amount of teenage girls. Horrible. And they named this Hellbox on Wheels GMC.

Well, you tell me, Tank. Okay. Pop quiz. A, Vanzilla. B, the Shaggin' Wagon. C, Murder Mac. Murder Mac, Shaggin' Wagon, Vanzilla. Vanzilla, Murder Mac, and Shaggin' Wagon.

Vanzilla, Murder Mac. Murder Mac? Yeah. Or Vanzilla or Shaggin' Wagon? Yes, those are your options. I'm having a tough time. You all right? Yeah, I'm stroking out. They called it Shaggin' Wagon. No. Firefighter Dave came up with that one. Good job, Dave. Thanks a lot. Could you give me a heads up? By the way. Yeah. Hey, Dave, give me a little heads up on these pop quizzes. Okay? No one has to know about it. Just me and you.

Okay. Murder Mac. Yes. Okay. Yep. They literally refer to this van as Murder Mac. It's weird. Yeah. In the back of this mobile torture chamber was a makeshift bed, a drink cooler, and, horrifyingly, a toolbox, the likes of which included a sledgehammer and a pair of pliers. A big toolbox, huh? It sure is, yeah. A sledgehammer. Yeah.

From February until June of that year, 1979, Lawrence and Roy drove up and down the Pacific Coast Highway to get a lay of the land while meeting teenage girls at the local beaches and testing the waters in terms of seeing how easy or difficult it was to get them to go with them in their van. Do you have an age on these guys right now? Because I feel like, in my mind, they're old. About 30? But, yeah, maybe... 30, 35? That's pretty old. Yeah.

Well, for back then, maybe. No, no, I mean to be picking up teenage girls. Oh, yeah. So obviously it would be terrible, but I imagine they would have an easier time if they were like, you know, 22, 23. Well, it turns out that in 1979, California, picking up teens was not a very difficult task, unfortunately, between the hitchhikers. Oh, yeah. Offering weed and alcohol and just like the times. Everybody was like definitely a little more willy-nilly with that stuff, you know? Yeah.

Some of the girls who willingly entered the van even allowed the men to take their photographs, having been told by Roy and Lawrence that they were scouts for a modeling agency. So that was another way that they were able to get girls inside the van. You could just lie back then and nobody could check anything. I know. I'd be like, what's your handle? And if they didn't have like a normal social, I'd be like, you're just a creep. Yeah. Nowadays, you know. What's your website?

Then by April, Dumb and Dumber discovered a fire road. I like a lot. Shout out Circleback. Yeah, Circleback. How about that? They discovered a fire road in the San Gabriel Mountains in a remote location overlooking the city of Glendora. Do you know what a fire road is? I was just going to ask you. It's a type of road or like a wide path that's designed for the access of firefighting equipment in like remote areas where there would be wildfires.

And the San Gabriel Mountains have a number of large canyons with many dramatic drops and cliffs and are also teeming with wild animals. So in terms of eventual body disposal, this location was sadly ideal. So we're painting a picture here.

They are perfecting the craft of picking up teenage girls. They're testing how easy, difficult ways to fine-tune that. They've now found a location in the mountains for when they abduct said innocent teenage girls, where they can take them, do what they want, which we're going to explore, and then sadly take their lives and dispose of the remains. Well, their plan is coming to fruition. Yes, it is. In the worst way possible. Exactly. Exactly.

And now we are going to discuss for better or for worse, for worse, spoiler for worse, exactly what those plans were that they mapped out, exactly what happened. But first, let what I'm about to tell you serve as another trigger warning, okay? When referencing the crimes that were committed by Lawrence Bitteker and Roy Norris,

the crimes that I'm about to tell you about, seasoned FBI profiler John E. Douglas classified Bitteker as the most disturbing individual for whom he has ever created a criminal profile. And this is coming from a man who worked on John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, and Jeffrey Dahmer. Ouch. Yeah. Wow. All right, here we go. Why did this guy get to work on all the big ones? He's...

Brilliant. A man? Yes. I think he, Johnny Douglas, is who one of the characters or the profiling department in Mindhunters on Netflix was based on. He's a G. On June 24th, 1979, Bitteker and Norris abducted their first victim, a 16-year-old girl with blonde hair and blue eyes named Lucinda Lynn Schaefer.

Lucinda, or Cindy as she had been known, just left a senior high fellowship meeting at a Presbyterian church located at the corner of Avenue D and Pacific Coast Highway in Redonda Beach when she was spotted by Lawrence and Roy walking home at 7.46 p.m.

After Roy said, quote, there's a cute little blonde, the men knew that they found their ideal first victim. They grabbed Cindy off the street and dragged her into their van, turning up the radio to full blast to drown out her screams. Oh my God. Then Roy tied up Cindy's legs and arms so that she couldn't move and gagged her with duct tape. After reaching the fire road in the San Gabriel Mountains...

Roy instructed Lawrence to go take a walk while he proceeded to rape the petrified girl for an entire hour. When Lawrence returned, the men swapped. After enduring hours of horrific sexual assaults, Cindy asked her assailants if they planned to kill her and begged that if they did, that she be allowed to pray first. Sadly, this heart-wrenching request was denied.

Roy put his hands around Cindy's neck and squeezed, attempting to strangle her, but was actually physically unable to do it. He ran out of the van to vomit. Maybe you shouldn't be killing people. Maybe. Try that on. Maybe it's not for you. Lawrence, with a cigarette hanging out of his disgusting mouth, stepped in and used a wire coat hanger to finish the job. He even used vice grip pliers for extra force. And of course, devastatingly, young Cindy died.

The men proceeded to wrap her body in a plastic shower curtain before throwing it over a steep canyon, hopeful that the coyotes would take care of her remains. What about the plastic? Yeah, good question. Fucking, these people are so stupid. I mean, DNA is not what it is today. No, no, I mean like, let's say the animals eat the entire body. Body's gone. But there's a plastic shower curtain drenched in blood. True. At the bottom of the cliff. True.

Yeah, I got nothing on that. Where was that in your blueprint? Right. Fucking idiots. Their next attack occurred on July 8th when they picked up Andrea Hall, an 18-year-old blonde-haired girl who was hitchhiking after leaving a McDonald's in Manhattan Beach. Once inside the van, Roy and Lawrence drove Andrea to their special little spot of horrors in the San Gabriel Mountains, tied her up, and took turns sexually assaulting her for hours.

They forced her to perform oral sex on Lawrence outside of the van, completely naked, before posing for sexually explicit Polaroid photos. And the worst part, as if this wasn't all nightmarish enough, was that after enduring hours of relentless torture and humiliation, Lawrence, in true sadist form, cruelly demanded that Andrea give him as many reasons as she could muster for him not to kill her.

After Andrea finished listing off reason upon reason as to why she should be allowed to live, Lawrence walked up to her on the side of the hill on which she was standing, completely naked, and said,

and jammed an ice pick through her ear and into her brain. She was over quick. No. No? Oh, God. Then he turned her body over and did the same thing in her other ear, this time stomping on the ice pick with his foot until the handle broke off.

horrifyingly, tragically, Andrea was still alive. Oh my God. So Lawrence proceeded to manually strangle her before throwing her body off of a cliff. I mean. Only two out of the seven. Well, it doesn't actually get to seven. Oh, good. Just so you know. Yeah. Oh, that's a little light at the end of the tunnel here. Okay. Wasn't expecting that. Yeah. I thought I was going to have to sit through five more of these. Not that far off.

Next, on September 3rd, Lawrence and Roy picked up two girls waiting at a bus stop near Hermosa Beach on Pier Avenue. By the way...

All beautiful areas that I love. And you would think nothing like this would ever happen there because it's such a chill, laid back area. I know. I've seen it. So I've watched a couple documentaries on this case. It's the best area in the country. Best residential area, in my opinion. The juxtaposition between the beauty of this place and the horrors that went down there is chilling.

So they picked up these two girls. Jackie Doris Gilliam was 15 and Jacqueline Leah Lamp was just 13 years old. So 15 and 13. They were lured into the van by a promise of marijuana and once inside, almost immediately knew that they were in danger.

Jacqueline, who went by her middle name Leah, attempted to open the van door but was immediately smashed over the head by a bag of lead weights. Oh my God. Like the two victims before them, both of these young girls were tied up and gagged. However, this time around, Lawrence and Roy decided to keep the girls prisoner for two full days up in the mountains. That's progressing. Exactly right. Escalating. Escalating.

As indicated by Lawrence, he kept them longer in order to prolong the gruesome experience since, quote, they only die once anyway. Yeah. Well, very thoughtful of you. Leah and Jackie both suffered repeated attacks of sexual assault and were also forced to watch the other getting attacked, which is like a whole other element of psychological torture. Yeah.

Jackie and Leah were forced to pose naked for explicit photos with both men. And at one point, Roy even recorded himself raping Jackie while forcing her to refer to him as her cousin. The guy that tried to find his cousin? Yep. Yep. Exactly. Roy was likely attempting to reclaim unfulfilled past fantasies and regain control of a situation that he had

Felt out of control at that time in his life. Hey, man. Some fantasies are just not meant to come true. No. You know? Lawrence instructed Jackie to cry out in pain as he stabbed her in the breasts with an ice pick and tore off her nipple with a vice grip pliers. Fuck. Finally, Lawrence brutally killed Jackie by lodging an ice pick into her ear. Again? Yeah. Fucking...

I hate this guy. I know. As for poor, precious Leah, Lawrence ordered her out of the van while shouting the last words she'd ever hear in this mortal realm, which were, you wanted to stay a virgin, now you can die a virgin. Which doesn't make any sense because he raped her. I was just going to ask, did I miss something? No, no, it doesn't make any sense to me, that quote. But that's what he said.

Then Roy hit her over the head with a sledgehammer before chucking her body along with Jackie's over an embankment. They switched spots, obviously, right? No, no, no. Same spot? Same spot. I mean, there's different various cliffs and drop-off points in those mountains, so it may not have been the exact same cliff, but they parked their van on the same fire road in the same part of the mountains.

Mercifully, we've now come to their last victim, a 16-year-old girl named Shirley Lynette Ledford, who went by Lynette. It's actually not really the last victim, but it's the last victim for who he killed.

Lynette was abducted outside of a gas station on Halloween, October 31st, 1979. The torture session began by the men mocking Lynette and slapping her, goading her to say something. When she started to scream, Lawrence told her to scream louder while hitting her breasts with a hammer and his fists. Then, and please listen to this next part very cautiously or maybe even jump ahead.

He inserted a pair of pliers into her vagina and rectum and tore her insides apart while recording her screaming and crying in agony. Wow. Lawrence and Roy then swapped places. Roy instructed Lynette to scream louder. Yeah, no, that sucked. That was not great. I know. Wish I didn't hear that. I know. Roy instructed Lynette to scream louder during his assault because he got off on...

the pain and the screaming, and smashed her elbow 25 times with the sledgehammer to ensure that she would scream. After two grueling hours of unspeakable abuse, Roy then strangled Lynette with a coat hanger. But rather than disposing of her body in the mountains as they had done previously,

Roy and Lawrence decided to dump her body on the front lawn of a random house in Sunland. Oh, my God. Where it was discovered by a jogger the next morning. Oh, fuck. So...

Why? Why did they leave her body out in the open? They get to hurt another person. Excellent. Serial killers often aim to create an atmosphere of panic, and they do so as a means of exerting power and control, not only over their victims, but over the wider community. This psychological tactic is a manifestation of their desire to instill fear, perhaps achieve infamy, and disrupt societal norms.

Dennis Rader, so BTK, did this between 1974 and 1991 in Kansas when he communicated with the media and taunted police through letters. David Berkowitz, son of Sam, did something similar when he sent letters to the police and the press claiming responsibility for the killings and then fucking with the police for their inability to catch him, which led to significant media coverage and public alarm, which is what he wanted.

Now, in terms of Bitteker and Norris leaving Lynette's body out in the open like that, remember something. This is 1979, right? So forensic science is not what it is today. Yeah. Even with the actual body, it was still a tall order to identify the killer or killers or for the police to even know which direction to go in without having a witness or physical evidence like a literal smoking gun. Luckily, however...

as I always like to point out in these cases, as monstrous and demonic as these killers are. They are, in fact, just human.

Real quick. Yeah. My son had a science fair yesterday. I think I mentioned it. I'm not sure. I don't know what's happening right now. But I thought of you and I thought you'd be very proud of this kid who did their project on forensic fingerprinting. I know. Love. I know. Yeah. And Jessica ran into a girl who did a, her topic was skin. Jessica was like, let's hear about it. I mean. You got it. It's the future. Yeah.

So these men, they're human, just like every other fucker we cover on Psychopedia. And as such, they make human, careless mistakes and errors in judgment, which ultimately typically leads to their downfall. And that is exactly what happened with Lawrence and Roy.

So in terms of the careless mistake, before the devastating murder of their final victim, Lynette Ledford, Lawrence and Roy attempted to abduct another girl a month earlier on September 30th named Shirley Sanders. And failed? Well, yes and no. So after abducting Shirley and taking turns...

raping her. Lawrence and Norris became careless and they lowered their guard for a brief moment and inadvertently created a narrow window of opportunity for her to make her escape, a chance that she courageously seized. Oh my God. Shirley got away and immediately reported the attack to the police, though at the time was unable to identify her attackers or recall their license plate number. She could, however, provide a description of the murder Mac, which wound up becoming pivotal.

So that's an example of Lawrence and Roy getting careless. Now, in terms of making an error in judgment or just being the stupid schmuck that he really, really was, here's what happened on that front with Roy. Roy Norris bragged about what he and Lawrence had done to an old prison pal named Jimmy Dalton. Jimmy then reported Roy to the Los Angeles Police Department as well as to the detectives at Hermosa Beach.

The detective in charge, Paul Bynum, made the crucial connection between the discovery of Lynette's body on the front lawn and the horrific abuse and torture that Roy had boasted about to Jimmy. Is Jimmy in jail at this point or he's out? He's out. Oh, so he's maybe like, you know, went to jail for something and he's like, listen, I'm trying to do the right thing here. Could be. Don't tell me about this shit. I'm not sure what his motivation was for actually going to the police, but I do know that he consulted with his attorney before he did that.

So he, I think you're right, was trying to do things by the book at that point. Essentially, Detective Bynum matched Lynette's crime to Norris's confessions. Bynum also connected the description of the van provided by the survivor who managed to escape, Shirley Sanders, with the vehicle that Roy drove. So Detective Bynum traveled to Oregon to visit Shirley Sanders in person and to provide her with a photo lineup.

And sure enough, Brave Shirley identified both Roy Norris and Lawrence Bitteker as her attackers. Thank God for her. Really. Bynum immediately took Shirley's positive identification, along with Jimmy Dalton's testimony, to the deputy district attorney, Stephen Kaye, whom I mentioned during the intro. And it turned out that D.A. Kaye had prosecuted Roy Norris once before on another rape case. I wish my name was D.A. Kaye. Yeah. It'll be a Patreon name now. Probably. I'm sure of it.

He knew that he had to build an airtight case against Roy and Lawrence to secure an eventual verdict and maximum punishment. Thus, rather than arresting the men straight away, D.A.K. decided to place surveillance on them.

And it didn't take long for Roy Norris to get caught doing something illegal because it's kind of his thing. Yeah. On November 20th, 1979, he was seen by law enforcement selling marijuana. I can't believe all this happened over the course of a year. I honestly was thinking the same thing. I'm waiting for you to say a different year. I know. It was 1979. I know, I know.

And since Roy was technically still on parole, selling marijuana was a violation, meaning they had grounds on which to immediately arrest him. Once they did this, officers then immediately apprehended Lawrence Bittiger as well, and both men were charged on suspicion of the rape and kidnapping of Shirley Sanders. Because at that time, that's all that they could kind of pin on them. While in custody, law enforcement searched their homes, prostitutes,

properties, and the notorious van, which of course revealed a truly horrible treasure trove of evidence that painted a vivid portrait of the unspeakable horrors that they had unleashed. First, officers discovered around 500 Polaroid pictures of girls and women, 60 of whom investigators were able to find and were actually still alive and well.

Because remember, they were telling girls and young women that they were modeling scouters or whatever the word is, scouts. So they had over 500 Polaroid pictures. 19 of those photographs linking to young women and girls were listed as missing persons. So it's very suspect, obviously. Yeah.

And then the rest were never identified. They didn't have the Polaroids of the crimes they were committing in the van? They had the tapes. I'm going to get to that right now, actually. Then there were the audio tapes. Oh, they only did audio? Yes.

Okay. That makes a little bit more sense. Because it's 1979. Exactly. Where are you getting a camcorder from? My dad had a camcorder in like 1985. It was the size of a microwave. Yeah. It was enormous. Do you think he could use that to have you do your Britney Spears impersonation? He won't have to because I'm going to do it on my phone today. Oh, shit. Yeah.

I've read the transcripts of the audio tapes and it's some of the most brutal, excruciating content I have ever seen. So I don't recommend Googling this or looking into this. Just take my word for it. And you're not going to read it to us? No, I'm not. Okay, good. We're going to touch more on that in two minutes when we get into the trial. First, I want to mention that not all of the tapes were recovered. In fact, the one of Leah's rape was buried in a cemetery. So they were like

hiding their tapes as well. Investigators also discovered chemicals, acid, and squirt guns in the van as well.

Apparently, Lawrence and Roy intended to start burning out the eye sockets of their victims. They also intended to fill the squirt guns with acid before handing them out to children on the beach while they watched in glee as they burned each other. Fucking assholes. So this is what I was saying about the toy box killer, right? And how...

His sort of evil creativity. Exactly. Very good. Reminds me of this level. Like squirt guns with acid? What the fuck? That you're going to give to kids? I mean, to think it? These guys just got to go. Yeah. How about you drink the acid, sir?

Now, with both men in custody, it didn't take long for Roy Norris to start talking. He didn't exactly deny being involved with the abduction and rape of Shirley Sanders, as well as all the other rapes and murders that he bragged about to Jimmy Dalton. But at his preliminary hearing on November 30th, 1979, he officially pointed the finger at Lawrence Bitteker as being the mastermind behind their cruel endeavors. Did you say November 30th? I did. 1979. What happened on November 30th? Just rings a bell.

Investigator Slater and her twin were born. Thank you for remembering my second half. No problem. Roy did confess to bludgeoning Jacqueline Leah Lamp to death and hitting Shirley Sanders 25 times in the elbow with a sledgehammer.

But I didn't do the other stuff. During interviews, Roy proceeded to explain how Lawrence's violence escalated over time, which is classic sexual sadist behavior, and how Lynette Ledford had begged for them to just kill her to end her suffering. Yeah.

After Roy's interviews and confessions, he agreed to help the Sierra Madre rescue team locate the bodies of the victims in the San Gabriel Mountains. And while the remains of Cindy Schaefer and Andrea Hall were never located, on February 9th, 1980, the skeletal remains of Jacqueline Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were in fact discovered scattered at the bottom of a canyon near a dry riverbed about one mile off from where Norris had indicated they would be. All right, good. Horrifyingly.

When Jackie's skull was found, it still had the ice pit embedded in the bone. My God. Do you recall the term tank that's used to describe the discovery of multiple bodies in a relatively similar location? We talked about this in the Robert Pickton case. Yeah, I remember that there is a phrase. Oh, murder radius? No, but that was excellent. Crime radius? Nope. Killer radius? Nope.

What? Cluster site. Cluster fuck. That's right. Cluster site. Following these discoveries, Roy Norris and Lawrence Bideker were formally charged with multiple counts, including murder, rape, kidnapping, and torture. Gotta put them in different prisons at this point, by the way. Under the prison, as you would say.

Roy Norris took a plea deal agreeing to testify against Laura Zbidekar in exchange for a reduced sentence. As part of this agreement, Norris pleaded guilty to four counts of first-degree murder, one count of second-degree murder, one count of robbery, and one count of rape. And on May 7th, 1980, Roy Norris was sentenced to 45 years to life in prison with the possibility of parole. What? I know.

Wait, hold on. Is Roy the one that couldn't strangle the girl? Yes. You ratted out your boy? Yeah. Who was doing horrific things with you? Snitches get stitches. I mean, we can only hope in this case. Yeah, I know. Lawrence Bitteker went to trial on January 19th, 1981 in Torrance with presiding judge Thomas Fredericks. Norris took his stand. Oh, wait, hold on. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Roy ratted on his friend. Yes. Or whatever you want to call him, his accomplice.

And got a deal, which was 45 years to life in prison. Oh, man. So you're saying there's a chance. So if I live forever, I might outlive this prison. Yeah. I mean, I guess some hope is what you're grasping for at that point. Fuck no.

So Norris took the stand on January 22nd at Bitteker's trial, and he was the prosecution's star witness and provided crucial testimony against Lawrence. Additionally, a 17-year-old former neighbor of Lawrence Bitteker named Kristen Drell also testified that Bitteker had once shown her a picture of Jackie Gillian while stating, "...the girls I get won't talk anymore."

These people, they can't stop bragging. I know. I know. Listen, as we say, these people, sometimes people refer to them as smart, which bothers me, or intelligent, or brilliant, or meticulous. Evil genius. Yeah, no. Just evil. Just evil and human. Again, I've said it before, I'll say it again. How smart could you really be if your decision-making process allows you to do those things? Yeah. Touche.

And lastly, in terms of who testified, a former cellmate of Lawrence Bideker took the stand and provided graphic testimony about what Bideker told him he'd done to the girls he abducted. In his defense... After he got arrested? Yeah. Okay. In his defense, Lawrence took the stand to testify on his own behalf on February 5th.

Generally speaking, it's typically not a great idea for a defendant to take the stand at his own criminal trial. This opens him or her up to potentially rigorous cross-examination by the prosecution, which can undermine their credibility or lead them to make damaging admissions. Jurors not only listen to what the defendant says, but also how he says it. So nervousness, arrogance, or lack of remorse can negatively impact how the jury perceives the defendant, and the entire case could be compromised.

On the stand, Lawrence claimed that all five victims willingly entered his vehicle, willingly had sex with him, willingly posed for photos, all in exchange for money. Then he left all of the girls in Norris' hands, suggesting, of course, that their deaths were his fault. He sounds like that veiny, bulbous nose fucker. Yes. Larry Singleton. Larry Singleton. From the Mary Vincent case. I paid them, so it's fine that I...

raped him. Literally dismembered her alive. Listen, I paid a lot of money. Okay? Like, what are these people thinking that judges get to be like, oh, I didn't realize, sorry, I didn't realize this was like a business transaction. My bad. Right. Adjourned. We're good here. Just pay taxes on it. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. Horrible. Ugh.

After a three-week trial, DA Stephen Kay presented his closing argument and indicated that he intended to go for the death penalty should Bidegar be found guilty and told the jury, quote, this case was one of the most shocking, brutal cases in the history of American crime. If the death penalty is not appropriate in this case, when will it ever be?

Yeah.

Yeah. Additionally, earlier in the trial, psychologist Michael Maloney testified for the defense and noted that except for the 1974 incident in which Lawrence stabbed the grocery store guy, the crimes committed throughout Bitteker's life were mostly nonviolent, primarily shoplifting and auto theft. I guess trying to paint a picture that it's unlikely that he would leap all of a sudden to becoming a serial killer. Yeah. Well, stranger things have happened. Truth.

After three days of deliberation, the jury came back with a verdict on February 17th. Guilty of five counts of first-degree murder, five charges of kidnapping, nine charges of rape, one charge of murder,

one charge of sodomy, two charges of forcible oral copulation, one charge of conspiracy to commit first-degree murders, and three charges of unlawful possession of a firearm. Tell me how much time you got. And in just one and a half hours, the jury unanimously sentenced Lauren Bittiger to death. Cool. His execution dates were postponed multiple times as he continued to appeal, and eventually...

Lawrence Bidiker died of natural causes on December 13th, 2019 at age 79. Took him that fucking long to go through the process of the death penalty? Appeals. There were... 40 years? My recollection is there was a large chunk of time in there in which the presiding governor suspended executions. So it's complex. Can he get grandfathered in? The justice system sometimes...

is so inadequate. I understand. I understand how you feel. He did serve 38 years for whatever that's worth. Before he died, what is something that Lawrence Bitteker did during his incarceration? Pop quiz. Yes, sir.

A, he studied law and passed the California baby bar. Don't care. B, he filed a cruel and unusual punishment lawsuit against the state prison system for serving him a broken cookie at lunch. Bitch. C, he strangled a 19-year-old young man in the rec yard with a pillowcase. So either he got upset about a cookie, he strangled somebody in the yard over a cookie...

I didn't say what. Oh, strangled somebody in the yard. And what was the first choice? He studied law and passed the California baby bar. B.

Yes. Nice. Yes, you are correct. Ended off strong. He fucking filed a cruel and unusual punishment because on his lunch tray was a broken cookie. Because I said this earlier, people that are in for life, they've got nothing but time. No, yeah. You know, I have to tell you that some of the letters we receive from clients who are incarcerated, their penmanship is extraordinary. Yeah. Like maybe they rewrote it 20 times. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's wild. It's wild.

Roy Norris also died by the way of natural causes on February 24th, 2020 at the California medical facility after being transferred there from the Richard J. Donovan correctional facility. World's a little bit of a better place with these guys dead. Yeah.

So we're coming towards the end, but first I want to talk about serial killer psychology and classification. Okay. You seem excited. I mean, this shit is my jam. Yeah. First off, both men were sexual sadists and got off on pain, suffering, and the humiliation of their victims. I've mentioned that throughout this case.

Although few serial killers are deemed legally insane, most exhibit pronounced antisocial behavior characterized by a deep lack of empathy, no remorse, a disregard for laws and societal norms, and a strong desire for revenge through extreme violence. That said, not all serial killers have the same motivation. As such, there are typically four recognized categories of serial killers. We've talked about this before. You want to take a shot? No. Visionary?

Right? Yeah. They're compelled by visions or voices that they believe are coming from a higher power, compelling them to do this. Process? Mission-oriented. Mission-oriented. Hedonistic. Hedonistic. Right? And then there's two subcategories, by the way, of the hedonistic serial killer category, which is a thrill killer and a comfort killer. Okay. And lastly, power-slash-control-oriented serial killers. I had no shot at remembering all of them. It's okay. Okay.

While most serial killers act alone, a significant number have collaborated and operated in pairs, like Bittiger and Norris. They are known as team killers. Typically, though certainly not always, team killers will have a higher body count than those flying solo. This is your last pop quiz. Okay. All right? Back to back. PQ, which statement is true?

A, the most common killing team consists of one male and one female and is often the most brutal of all the team killers. Natural born killers. B, the most common killing team consists of two males with an age gap and they're often the most difficult to catch. C, the most common killing team consists of two females and are financially motivated. Whoa. Curveball. Oh, man. Female.

Financially motivated. Nope. Yeah, obviously. That's not the one I was thinking of. Nope. Women are perfect. Louder, louder. Women are perfect.

Perfect? Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought you wanted me to come up with something else. No. Too much pressure. Two males, age gap. Nope. Yep. As I was saying, is not the answer. Right. So male and female, Mickey and Mallory, basically. Who have we examined? A female-male killing duo. I'll give you a hint. Took place in Canada. Oh, the Ken and Barbie kills. Very good. Very good. John Barbados or what is his name?

Paul Bernardo. Paul Bernardo. And Carla Homolka. Carla Homolka. So the most common killing team consists of a male and a female, and they are often more brutal than any other permutation. Yeah. Typically, male-male team killers work together because they believe that two bodies are stronger than one. They tend to operate within their local area and typically target adults who are strangers to them using guns over other methods for killing. Okay.

The last horrific thing I will tell you before my concluding remarks is that following the trial of Lawrence Bideker and Roy Norris, or really Lawrence Bideker, this is really tragic. Detective Paul Bynum, who played a significant role in the investigation, tragically took his own life on December 22nd, 1987. He absolutely could not live with the graphic and disturbing evidence that he encountered during this investigation. He left, I believe it was a 20-page long

suicide note reportedly expressing irreparable heartbreak over the images that he saw that he just could not erase from his mind. Wow, I'm so glad you brought this case to us then. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Yep.

In conclusion, the toolbox killer case remains one of the most chilling chapters in criminal history. The brutal end of five beautiful young lives in 1979 not only shattered the innocence of a community, but also underscored the depths of human depravity. Just end of. Like the fact that human beings were capable of that and are capable of that. Scary. While justice was technically served through the killer's convictions, technically,

The pain and loss inflicted by their actions continues to linger, a somber testament to the victim's

and their grieving families. And I'd like to just leave off by honoring the victims and remembering who they were as girls with their whole lives ahead of them instead of victims. 16-year-old Cindy Schaefer had been spending the summer with her grandparents when she was killed. They described her as being very warm and loving and just tops, which I think is adorable. That's a great way to describe somebody. 18-year-old Andrea Hall had wonderful friends and a boyfriend whom she was attempting to go see when she was picked up and killed.

15-year-old Jackie Doris Gilliam and 13-year-old Leah Lamp lived two houses away from each other and were described as wonderful, sweet girls. Their parents physically went to every single beach in the area trying to find their daughters when they initially went missing.

16-year-old Lynette Ledford had just left a Halloween party when she was abducted. Ironically, she was abducted after she was attempting to get away from two boys who were bothering her at a gas station. Oh my God. Lynette had a mother and a brother who loved her tremendously. And that is the case of the toolbox killers. Thank you so much for giving me these

images in my brain that I will never be free of. I'm very sorry. Appreciate that. I'm very sorry. If you're out there and you're listening and you're feeling the same way, I will be filing a class action lawsuit against Investigator Slater for the torment she's put us through here. Yeah. So watch out. What are your damages? Punitive. Okay. Yeah, just said a legal word. I don't even know. Very good. Yeah. Erroneous.

Yeah, very tragic. Yeah. Awful. Such young girls, such depraved humans. We're going to leave off on a little bit of a lighter note. You have Tanks Titties? I'm sorry. I know you don't like it, but it's kind of perfect. Tanks Tidbits. Okay, go on. And some Patreon names. All right, all right. All right. Patreon names are a fucking fire this week. They are bangers. Buckets of Spaghetti.

Which I know you know what that's from. Oh my goodness. What episode was that? Oh, I have no idea. I know it though. Yeah. The spaghetti shop when I was talking about. Yes. Near me. Yes. Um,

Listen to this one. Crucible of Torment. Saw it. Loved it. We're about to talk about that on the Patreon episode that we're about to record. So that person saw the post on Patreon of me asking if they had any questions, comments, concerns, thoughts, or prayers for us. That was very good. And...

Listen to the episode and beat us to it. Amazing. Yeah, so shout out to you. New gerbil to long may moan land, no helmet zoom zooms. Love. Welcome. A good dollar. Short and sweet. Steve Gould. Excellent. Tank's dried lips. How about Tank's moist lips? Tank's fucking well hydrated lips. Jillian Solomon's fuckable pig.

What do you mean, oh yeah? That's the inflatable pig that Robert picked and kept on his desk. Oh my God. And he referred to it as the fuckable pig. Wow, these people are- You listeners are outstanding. I know. I know. Hand-rubbing cretin. Hand-rubbing cretin. I forget who I said that about, but I remember saying it. Okay. Because standing there like a hand-rubbing cretin, excited for whatever. Excellent. And 3131 North Eve. Fuck that. Fuck that.

Iron Mike Tyson here, my co-host. And for Tank's Tidbits. Hit me, tube sock. Today's Tank Tidbits, a.k.a. Tank's Titties, a.k.a. Tank's Tube Sock. Weird is... I have a note here that says, like, I like the phrase, I don't know if it's a phrase or not, but life is to be enjoyed, not endured. Right? So...

On earth, some people, and I get it, I understand why some people would feel like this. Some people have really, really rough lives, dealt a bad hand. I don't believe we're here to suffer on earth. We're here to experience life and look at ourselves. And the caveat is that if you find yourself, after looking at yourself long enough, if you find yourself suffering, that's a sign that some changes need to be made. Right.

And I'm not talking about external circumstances that are out of your control. I'm talking about that quiet internal just...

Fuck, man. Like, my life sucks. Yeah. Even when it's good. So if you find yourself suffering, that's a little sign maybe there's some work to do. Okay. I'll take it. No pressure. No pressure. Do what you can do. Not everybody has that luxury, I guess, of changing things. Again, I'm not talking about external circumstances. I'm talking about internal suffering. Yeah. That goes on. That's hard. I know.

It's the biggest one. Yeah. So we'll leave you with that. With that said, I'd like to collectively thank investigators Slater for doing all the hard work of getting us, not only hard work research-wise, but like hard emotional work of going through this and putting it all together. Thank you. I did cry multiple times during the research. Yeah. I cry listening to this. I know.

And here we are, leaving off on that note. Back to hell. Yep. So if you made it this far, you're a real one. Thanks. Thank you, everyone, for sticking it out. This was a terrible case, but...

I'm glad that the victims were, you know, given a little bit of shine at the end. And I hope we can walk away with that. Yeah. And let us know your thoughts on the episode. Do you have any questions, comments? You can email us. You can DM us on Instagram. We will see it. We try to get back to everybody because we love you all. And we're trying to build a little community here. And it's just ever-growing little community of psychos, lunatics, little freaks, demon demons, Steven demons. And that's it. That's it. We'll see you guys next episode. Bye. Bye.