EP59: Kim Kardashian's Killer Klone 01:17:03

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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I am your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my mega host. Investigators Slater. Sick, right? Yeah. Just happened. I feel like you just gave me my propers. Yeah, well, I was calling you a micro host because of your insignificant role on the podcast. Clearly. Not because you're physically minute. Uh,

It was about the work you do. Thank you for that. So sweet. We got a new episode today. I know. We have a new case for me that you're a little too excited about, for my taste. Have you ever actually seen me not excited before doing a Psychopedia episode? No, but sometimes you get a little extra excited where you're like, no, no, no, this one is like, and you've already said next week's is like, oh my, you're going to love it.

So then I get excited. Well, I'm worried about you next week. Why? To be honest. It's very, very intense. And this one is as well. But there's something about next week that I just know you well enough now that it's going to fuck you right up. Is it about bald people being killed? It's about bald people doing the killing. No. No, it isn't. Oh, my goodness. All right. Well, you're going to run me through a case. I know nothing. You know everything.

which is nice for you. We're on video. That just reminded me of something. What? I had a revelation that I wish to share with you. Right now? Yep, and I wish to do it publicly. More important than the YouTube announcement? Oh, no. Nothing's more important than that right now. Well, if you're listening on audio, go to YouTube, type in Psychopedia Podcast, and watch this one. If you want. If you don't, that's fine also. But we're in the studio, which is like getting there as far as being like our home. Mm-hmm.

Wildwood Creative made us this insane centerpiece for our table that is our logo made out of wood that looks, I mean, it's beyond words. It's exquisite. I just, I honestly don't understand. I honestly don't understand how a human being created that. Me either. The skill and the talent, it's just something that I struggle to actually comprehend. It is gorgeous. That's how people feel about your investigation skills. Oh!

Thank you. Seriously. Oh my God. If that's the case, I should hang it up. Yeah. Yeah. But shout out to Wildwood Creative on Instagram for doing this for us. Unprompted. She gifted it, which was extremely generous because I can't imagine the amount of work and how many hours she put into this. Yeah. So we thank you so much. It is in our studio front and center. Again, you can see it on YouTube. And we owe you our lives. Whole lives. Yeah.

Okay, what is your announcement, your revelation? This came to me the other day, and I'm just going to come out with it. Sure.

You came up with psychopedia. I did? The name. You did. We had this back and forth. You look puzzled. Hold on. I've changed my memories to fit your narrative. The gaslighting is... No, no. This is what I realized. Yeah. So we were sitting around my kitchen table, right? We were talking about starting a true crime podcast. Yeah. And you said...

you said, how many cases though? Like how many cases do you think you could really research and come up with and know enough about? And I was, I said to you,

I'm like an encyclopedia of psychos. And then you said... Psychopedia. Psychopedia. And then I'm the one who said on the heels of that, that's what we should name our podcast. Yeah. So it was like, you definitely came up with it though. Yeah. Like my memory just suddenly came back to me and I apologize for all these months of insisting that it was my idea. I can't wait until you realize that I was the one that said hitherto first. I didn't. That I'm sure of. You better watch your back.

Because I'm going to go through the old episodes and find it. I need the transcripts so I can do a search. You're going to have to figure out how to get them. I'm going to ask you for them. I'm not going to give them. I'm going to dig my own grave. Because you have something to hide.

Exactly. All right, we're going to get into the case. But first, before that, if you love us and you're not getting enough of what you need once a week on Wednesdays, go over to patreon.com slash psychopedia pod, where we do an episode of Unhinged, which is where we revisit a case. That was hard to say for some reason. I relate to that. I froze. And if I'm not mistaken, we're going to start doing an additional episode of True Crime a week over there for all levels, Little Freaks and Semen Demons.

We're coming for you, and you better be ready. We want to be in your ear holes at least three times a week. We want three hours of your life once a week. So we just want to hang out with you guys. Exactly. Exactly. So head on over there if that's enticing to you, the idea of getting a brand new episode once a week that you haven't heard before. And not unhinged, which is an acquired taste. That's good. All right. So without further ado,

What more can I say? By the way, you owe us a Britney Spears rendition. I wanted to ask you, can you show me how to record myself singing on my phone? And I will do that. I will provide. Okay, good. I always keep my promises. All right. Well, until that happens, why don't you tell me about all the research you did for this case? All right. You ready? Wait, I forgot to mention something. What? What?

Stick around until the end of the episode. You're going to be here, so not you, but you. Not going anywhere. For another installment of Tank's Tidbits. Ooh, your titties. All right. Titties, titties, titties, titties. All right. Let's get on with the case.

On the afternoon of September 20th, 2017, an ominous cloud of thick smoke enveloped the upscale Southfields neighborhood of Wimbledon, London, originating from a backyard on Pullborough Road. Neighbors in the area initially dismissed the plumes of smoke as the aftermath of an overly ambitious bonfire, but found their patience waning as the particularly foul stench persisted and the smoke thickened over three long hours.

Please tell me he wasn't burning bodies. I'm going to die. Their concern escalated with each passing minute and what started out as just an annoyance now turned into alarm. So the neighbors decided to call 999 and the fire brigade arrived at the scene of all that smoke by 6.20 p.m. With tea. With tea. They put out the fire with tea.

I'm going to leave that one. The homeowner of the property where the smoke and fire raged was a 39-year-old man named Wissam Maduni. When

When Wissam, who called himself Sam, was questioned by the authorities as to the source of the fire and the ludicrous amount of smoke it was producing, he spun a bizarre tale about how he purchased an entire lamb earlier that day at Wimbledon Market, and he was attempting to barbecue it wool and all. What? Gross. You remember when the sky turned orange, by the way? Yes, I do. Like a year ago? Because of the Canada fires, right? The smoke coming our way. Yeah.

I was at a Little League game and I remember looking at the sky being like, yeah, it's fine. Whatever. I kept my kids home from school. The sun's red. It's okay. I didn't send them to school. Yeah. Because the air quality was so poor. Yeah, that was crazy. It was.

So Sam was adamant that this was all just a silly mistake and a failed attempt at playing grill master. And he desperately pleaded with firefighters not to extinguish the flames. Of course, all that did was hint at the deeper, more sinister reality lurking beneath his implausible explanation. Yeah. Despite Sam's frantic objections, a firefighter named Thomas Hunt confronted the embers of the unruly blaze and stamped out some of the lingering flames.

Initially, the scene resembled an ordinary barbecue with chicken thighs sizzling on a very small little modest grill. However, what firefighter Thomas Hunt discovered in the ashes next to the poultry was a horrifying revelation that would haunt him for the rest of his life. What was it?

The very moment Thomas realized that his bunker boot was stomping on something else, the atmosphere shifted palpably because amidst the now dying flames were dismembered human fingers and a charred human nose scattered in the ashes like morbid puzzle pieces of a grotesque scene.

And what started out as a mere smoky inconvenience to the residents of that upscale London neighborhood had now morphed into an intense investigation that exposed a story of unimaginable horror. Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. Authorities spent an entire week piecing together the identity of the charred remains. And when the truth finally emerged from the ashes, it unveiled the absolutely brutal tragedy of...

of a 21-year-old French au pair named Sophie Leonnet. So this is her story. Yeah. Let's get into it. And today we're going to start at the very beginning. On January 7th, 1996, in the quaint and rural town of Troyes, specifically in the village of Peyron, nestled in the heart of Northeast France, not too far from Paris. You said Troyes and not Peyron? That's right.

That's actually not how you pronounce it. You looked it up. I did. Okay. According to what I found in my research, it's not pronounced Perron. I was going to nail it if it was. You would have, you're right. I apologize. So this is not far from Paris, okay? Catherine de Valonay and Patrick Léoné welcome their cherished baby girl Sophie into the world. From the very beginning, Sophie was enveloped in love and experienced a wholesome childhood, which continued unabated even after Catherine and Patrick divorced.

and Catherine wound up remarrying. Despite the familial reshuffle, Sophie maintained a deep connection with both of her biological parents and was constantly surrounded by support and stability in her very, very sheltered life. A good upbringing.

To me, if you're looking at pictures of Sophie, she looks like she stepped out of the pages of like an old-timey romantic painting. She has cascading dark curls, greenish-gray eyes, and a smile that just has a certain warmth to it. Yeah. She was shy, introverted, and very socially conscious with a beating heart for animals—relatable—

and a sincere love for children. I've heard that it's a red flag if you have a smile that lights up a room. Oh, yeah. Well, on Dateline? Yeah. Yeah. Not great. Yeah. So don't light up any rooms with your smile. I do think about that. Like, if I wound up on a Dateline episode, like if something ever happened to me, what would be said about me? They'd be like, she was so small. We don't even know how he located her. He found her in the blades of grass. Blades of grass. You're a dick.

That's grass right there, by the way. For those of you watching on YouTube, right behind her, that's actual grass. Yep. To scale. To scale.

So given her love for animals and children, it was natural that upon graduating high school, Sophie chose to pursue a career in childcare. She undertook coursework in this field, which laid the groundwork for an exciting opportunity that soon presented itself, which was a promising au pair position in the bustling metropolis of London. First things first, if I was a young woman looking to see the world,

I would become an au pair so fucking fast, it would make your head spin. It can be an absolutely wonderful exchange program. Yeah. It's like a sophisticated babysitter. Yeah. So I'm going to tell you what an au pair is because maybe not everybody knows what it is. Yeah. So it is usually a young woman from one country who travels to another country to live with a host family and assist with childcare and sometimes usually lighthouse work. I had two French kids live with me in high school. What?

Yeah. Just remembered. Like a student exchange? Yeah. You're kidding. Over the summer, they stayed for like a month, I think. How cool is that? It was très bon. But you didn't go to France? Like you didn't swap? No, got fucking hosed on that one. I mean, short end of the stick.

But this sort of cultural exchange program allows au pairs to learn about a new culture and language while providing them with a room and board and a stipend, as small as that stipend typically is. The experience is designed to be beneficial for both the au pair and the host family. So the au pair gains invaluable international experience and the opportunity to study the language and the culture of the new country. And the host family benefits from the additional childcare support and the chance to learn about the au

au pairs culture as well. Okay, so I feel like you're saying au pair like your mother says E-R and I just want to let you know before you get too ahead of yourself. How do you say it? It's au pair, not au pair. I say au pair. You're wrong. Why? Because you say so? We'll let the audience know. Okay. All right. Typically, au pairs... Is that better?

I eat pears and shit like that now. Shout out to all the pears. Typically, au pairs are

are treated as part of the host family and not just as employees, which does foster a unique bond. And I have to say that I grew up for a couple of years of my very early childhood with an au pair and she came to my wedding. That's how close we were. Wow. Yeah. Cecilia, shout out. How many years was she with you? I think she was only with us for two years. Oh, okay. But you get very close. You live with them. She's under the same roof exactly. Yeah. So moving forward,

to London was a very, very big move for Sophie, especially since she had never before even left France. Listen, can I tell you how ignorant I am? Yeah. I swear to God, I only thought people came from Europe or elsewhere to America to become au pairs. Ooh.

I know that it's like, I forget how small Europe is. Like the countries are states, essentially. You know what I mean? So you can go from one country to another in a three-hour drive. Right. Sometimes less. And for Sophie, London was so completely different from her very small town in France. I guess, would it be like someone from Kansas becoming an au pair in New York City? Maybe. Yeah. Very different day to day, for sure, to say the least. Okay. Got it.

And Sophie saw this as a chance to unfurl her wings and to venture beyond the familiar confines of her comfort zone. It is a very brave thing to do. Oh, yeah. It was an opportunity ripe with potential to master the English language, to immerse herself in a new cultural tapestry, and to gain invaluable experience working with children, each step paving the way for her future that she dreamed of.

So in January 2016, just after her 20th birthday, Sophie set off for London, brimming with excitement and ready to begin a new chapter with her host parents, Sabrina Cuida and Sam Medini. It's actually host parents.

Parents. Yeah, really. And they're two young sons, okay? So Sabrina and Sam, right? Sam is who I mentioned earlier. Never could she have imagined that the individuals welcoming her into their home expected to be her responsible employers and protective guardians because that's really what you're doing as host parents. You're taking in that au pair is there to take care of your children, but they're 20 years old.

Oh my god. Yeah.

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So let's learn a little bit about these atrocious architects of hell, shall we? Nice. Alliteration. Sophie's host parents were Sabrina Cuida and Sam Medini, as I said. The couple, originally from France, settled in Southfields, which is a district in southwest of London within the borough of Wandsworth. Sabrina, born in Algeria in 1983, moved to France during her childhood in

and met Sam, who's five years older than her, when she was 19 years old. So Sabrina was working at a crepe stand at a Parisian fun fair where she met Sam. So French. Who is immediately captivated by Sabrina's exquisite beauty and charm. And this is not Omaima Nelson exquisite beauty. It's actual beauty. It's actually like a

I mean, I hate to say it, but she was a banger. Yeah. So she was a crepe flipper and he was a mime, you said? I didn't say a mime. It's just so French. Oh my God. No.

Despite her morally questionable actions, though, and I have to impress upon you this, Sabrina did truly possess undeniable physical beauty. She had a curvaceous figure, big brown eyes, and long dark hair. In fact, she was often mistaken for which of the following celebrities? One question first. Did she have a gat? What is that? Have your son said that to you? No. Oh, it's like a big ass. Yeah.

It's short for God damn. Really? I swear to God. Oh, my. I'm surprised my little one hasn't said it to me yet. Yeah. All right. Pop quiz. Ready? Yes, I am. Who does she look like? Okay. A, Kim Kardashian. B, Catherine Zeta-Jones. Okay. C, Salma Hayek. Wow. All bangers in their own right. Absolutely. If they hear this. You wish. Kim Kardashian, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Jones, or Salma Hayek? Mm-hmm.

Catherine Zeta-Jones. No. Cool. Selma Hayek. No. Kim K. Kim K. Yeah. So the reason why I'm sort of like honing in on her beauty as much as it kills me because she is absolutely disgusting inside. Yeah. Is because it's speculated that the reason why she got away with a lot of her sort of

behavior in life, which was tumultuous and explosive and angry, was because she was a piece. Yeah. Quote, unquote, get away with murder. Yeah. Yeah. Ironically, Sabrina moved to London originally after deciding to take on work as a nanny. Sam followed her, earned his degree in economics, and found work as a financial analyst at the French bank, Sotheby's.

Wait, who did that? Sam. Oh, okay. Okay. I was going to say she went there to be a nanny. She became a financial person, but it's not the same person. Well, that's possible too. Of course it is. In movies. Eventually, in about 2005, Sabrina left the world of childcare in exchange for becoming a fashion designer, stylist, and makeup artist. And that's where both of them sort of landed in their professional lives. Okay. Gotcha.

At this point, Sam and Sabrina were doing financially well, and together were able to afford an apartment worth 900,000 pounds in Southfields, London. That's a heavy-ass apartment. Yeah. However, in spite of their financial stability, almost everything

every other aspect of their relationship was tumultuous and often characterized by Sabrina's unreasonable jealousy, hot temper, and aggressive nature. They actually split up for a time in 2011, at which point Sabrina started to seriously date a celebrity. Oh. PQ. Nice. I know, it's kind of a doubleheader. We just did one. Kanye West. What?

What celebrity did Sabrina start dating around this time? A. Mark Walton, who was a founding member of the mega Irish boy band Boyzone. Okay. B. Tom Hardy, a London-based actor and rising star at the time. C. David Guetta, a French DJ and music producer. C. No. Great distraction. Mm-hmm.

Tom Hardy? Nope. The fuck? Man. The other guy? The other guy. The other bloke? Mark Walton. The other lad? Yes. I mean, he is Mark Wahlberg in my brain. No, well, get that out because he's not. He's Mark Walton. And he was a very, very, very big deal. He really was. He was like a music mogul at the time. Boyzone was huge. By 2013, they sold 25 million records worldwide with five number one albums in the UK. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina met Mark at a Notting Hill bank while speaking to the manager while she was in line, and they began a romantic relationship. He was head over heels for Sabrina. As I said, Mark was an internationally successful pop music mogul who went on to work alongside Lady Gaga, Enrique Iglesias, and Jennifer Lopez. Wow. I know. Wow.

So when Mark and Sabrina were dating, Mark introduced her to the glitz and glamour of life in the limelight. Nice. And by all accounts, Sabrina was absolutely smitten with Mark. But she was also intensely jealous and completely poisoned their relationship with her toxic and controlling nature. Mark would later go on to describe this time with Sabrina as being a living nightmare. Yeah. She consistently dated multiple men at the same time, at one point up to 11, and

according to Mark, and even tried to elicit them all to participate in a pyramid scheme selling phone lines. Mark ended up buying into the company, got financially fucked, and realized too late that he should have seen this scheme as one of the many warning signs that Sabrina displayed. Yeah. But Mark wanted to help her.

As apparently, Sabrina told him that she'd been raped by two of her uncles and was severely abused. So he kind of gave her a pass on a lot of things. And again, most sources will also tell you that because she was so attractive, that it's believed that she just got a pass in life. Yeah. I think it's called the halo effect. Yeah.

Yes. They did a study with like young kids, like kindergarten kids. I know the study. They showed them pictures of teachers that were more attractive or less attractive and they had them rate them on perceived intelligence, whether they were nice or not. And they, you know, the better looking teacher got all the better ratings from the kids, which is like, they're not poisoned yet by that. Right. It's just like, it's a thing that is in us. It's wild. Yeah.

Sabrina would experience violent mood swings and rageful bouts of jealousy that caused her to berate Mark and cruelly lash out at him. Mark indicates that at the time, Sabrina wielded a psychological power over him. After being together for 14 months and living in a Queensway apartment that Mark paid for, he stumbled upon photos of Sabrina with another man. When Mark asked her about the man in the photos, she became furious. Irate. And in a

fit of anger tossed 30 photos out of their fifth floor window onto the street below.

Then, when Mark attempted to leave, presumably to pick up the photos, Sabrina launched a heavy glass ashtray at him that smashed against the wall. Oh, okay. I thought you were going to say smashed against his skull. It did not. Why would he go get the pictures? I think he didn't want to cause a scene. I think he was like put together, you know. His doorman picks up the photos and is like... Normally functioning. And maybe, yeah, maybe he also wanted to save face. Yeah. You know? Sadly, their relationship was marked by several physical confrontations online.

all perpetrated by Sabrina. Yeah. She once punched Mark in the jaw for snoring in his sleep, which left... While he was sleeping? Which left his... Yes, his face bruised for days. What an asshole. She also accused...

four, four full-time nannies that they had for her older son because she had a son by this point. She accused all of them of having an affair with Mark. She even went as far as installing hidden cameras around the home to monitor them, convinced of their guilt despite the lack of any real evidence or Mark telling her that nothing ever happened. Yeah. As indicated by Mark in an interview, Mark,

And this is a quote. The transformation of this beautiful girl into someone terrifying was one of the most frightening experiences. That reminds me of my favorite acronym of all time. Would you like to hear it? I would. Fear.

F-E-A-R. False evidence appearing real. Ooh. Yeah. Hurts. Yeah. Yeah. When you're in it. Right. I was like that too. I was just convinced that whoever I was dating at the time was like just obviously cheating on me. Right. Viciously. And then what? You would find something that could be

perceived in a million different ways and use it against her? No, I would look and I'd find nothing and that would make me even more angry. The lack of evidence was evidence. Yeah. You're deleting everything. Oh. Yeah. That is... There's no talking to someone in that state of mind. Yeah, yeah. False evidence appearing real is... That one stuck with me. That's interesting, yeah. Yeah. 14 months into their relationship, Sabrina then announced that she was pregnant. And Mark was over the moon. Yeah.

Until a few months later when Sabrina suddenly vanished off to France, indicating after the fact that her mother was ill and that she needed to be there. With the son she disappeared? Well, she was pregnant. Yes, with her older son. Yeah. Not long after arriving in France, Sabrina called Mark to deliver the heartbreaking news that she'd had a miscarriage.

Then she advised Mark to just get on with his life before hanging up on him. Right? So this like up and down is so abusive. It is, yeah. Mark was absolutely devastated by the news of the miscarriage, but then deeply confused as Sabrina's brother notified Mark that Sabrina had indeed given birth to a baby boy. Wow. For many years, Mark engaged multiple lawyers in an effort to convince Sabrina to provide a paternity test.

But in spite of his uncertainty about whether or not the baby was actually his, Mark continued to send Sabrina thousands of dollars each month in child support. Ultimately, after hitting a wall over and over again, Mark eventually stopped pursuing the DNA test and relocated to Los Angeles, California, while Sabrina remained in the UK. Why did he do that? Just to get out of there? Yeah, I mean, I think his career took him there. Yeah, yeah. She was in France and he was in England anyway. Yeah. But after...

so long of trying to get a paternity test and trying, I really believe, to be a part of the baby's life. Of course, yeah. At some point, it just, he gave up. So at this point in the case, Sabrina got back together with Sam, right? Because now Mark is in Los Angeles. Oh, yeah. And they're

They're done. And they moved to the cushy area of Southfields, London to raise Sabrina's now two sons, neither of whom were Sam's. And although the couple was joined by a traditional Muslim marriage certificate, Sabrina openly downplayed the relationship and would often refer to Sam as a relative or a friend while she openly dated other men. Can you fucking imagine going somewhere with Firefighter Dave? Ha ha ha!

And he introduces you to some girl. This is my friend. I mean. Oh, I would, my blood would boil. But she had some kind of hold over him that he stuck around for it and he put up with it. Yeah, he's probably in his head like, yeah, we're friends, I guess. Like, we're friends also, but we're married. It's not a lie. Yeah.

Additionally, at this point too, as I said, Mark stopped sending Sabrina money. He, for a while, was convinced with good reason that the baby was his, right? So even though she cut him off, he was sending her money. Now he stopped. Yeah. And that got her attention. Oh, yeah. Right? He's, I mean, I think from his perspective, he's probably thinking if I just send enough money,

I'll get some answers or I'll get to see my son if it's my son. Yeah. But, I mean, he's got boy band money. He does. He does. He was very well off. But the withdrawal of financial aid triggered Sabrina's vindictive side and caused her to reach out to some of Mark's biggest clients who were major international music stars to tell them that he was a pedophile. Oh, my God. Bad shit. She also called the police pedophiles

30 separate times to make which of the following accusations? Pop quiz. A, that Mark sexually assaulted her, resulting in the birth of their son. B, that Mark had sexually abused their cat. C, that Mark ran a sex trafficking operation between L.A. and London. What? What?

Again, the worst part of this is that you made up two of them. I know. It's the best part for me. So he either sexually assaulted her, resulting in the birth. Which is not great, right? No, no, no. They're all terrible. They are. She called... She called the police to say that Mark was sexually abusing their cat. Cat, right. Or he's running a sex ring between L.A. and London. Right. Running a sex ring? No. Yeah. Meow. Meow. Meow.

Called the police and told them that he was assaulting the cat? Yep. Wow. Yep. And here's the icing on the cake. How do you even get that sentence out of your mouth? He never even had a cat. Sabrina also indicated to the police that Mark had been sleeping around with male sex workers, hired helicopters to spy on her, targeted her with black magic, and secretly entered her apartment to harvest semen from her sleeping boyfriend. Wow.

So, I mean, she's obviously not well. Yeah. So this is the picture that I'm painting for you. Okay. I'm happy to see it's being painted accurately. Yeah. She's slipping into a delusional world. It's not as good as the wildwood creative wood carving that we have up here, but it's pretty good. I mean, nothing will ever beat that. Yeah. You got a lot of work to do. Yep.

This harassment and defamation only ended after Sabrina was cautioned by police to stay away from Mark and to stop spreading lies. All right, good. All right, so at least they stepped in. He's got a little, some people on his side. Right.

So at this point in the case, it's 2016 and Sabrina and Sam make the decision to hire an au pair to help raise Sabrina's two sons who are now four and eight years old. Nice pronunciation. Thank you, sir. Enter 20-year-old Sophie Leone. I remember her. Yeah. Sophie truly believed that she found the

perfect family to work for. Despite only being paid 50 pounds a week, Sophie was thrilled for the opportunity to learn the English language and to take care of children, which was her calling. Yeah. And what year is this? 2017? 16. Okay. Little did she know that just over a year later, she would tragically end up as a pile of ashes in the family's backyard. Hmm.

Initially, Sophie's time as an au pair for Sabrina and Sam was marked by positivity and fulfillment, like a honeymoon phase. It doesn't start off bad. Right. The children quickly grew fond of her and she thrived in the nurturing environment that she created for them. She was probably a good au pair. Absolutely. She was by all accounts, neighbors, shop owners in the area. Everybody thought she was wonderful. Yeah.

Additionally, she found companionship in a community of nannies in the area, which was bustling with other young women who shared her profession. Yeah. It was a nice fit. During her initial conversations with her mother, Catherine Devillanet,

Sophie conveyed a sense of happiness and satisfaction with her new life in London, even though her mother was like, did not want her to go and do this. The rapport that she developed with Sabrina, though, was also a comfort to her initially, with the two often engaging in long conversations over tea in the kitchen. Sabrina even gave Sophie a makeover with her affinity for beauty and styling.

Sophie acclimated well and slipped into a routine typical of an au pair. She took the children to and from school, did all the grocery shopping, and was noticed by neighbors as having become the primary caretaker of the home, which is presumably why she was hired. There's like a lot of sources that kind of like dig into that a little bit. Like, oh, you know, when Sophie showed up, Sabrina disappeared. Well, she was...

Yeah. To take on the brunt of the work with the kids and the household. So I don't think it's so unusual that when a nanny shows up, you see less of the parents. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the point. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

But this harmonious situation was not destined to last because after living with the family for 18 months, which is a pretty decent amount of time, Sophie began to endure appalling abuse at the hands of Sabrina. Neighbors started noticing that Sophie stopped changing her clothing and was looking thinner and thinner and more disheveled as time went on. Mm-hmm.

And Southfields, London is a place where people know each other and talk. So it became a bit of a buzz around town that Sophie was changing so dramatically. Neighbors also noticed that Sabrina, who had a reputation for being both beautiful and unhinged,

was coming out of her home less and less since Sophie's arrival. Sabrina and Sam were generally seen as being strange and private people. So neighbors indicated that while Sabrina always looked very well put together and flashy and upper crust, she had very unkempt and rude habits like leaving trash outside for days and blocking people's driveways with her car. I feel like I know that type of person. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah.

Sam and Sabrina were often late in making rent payments as well. One time when Sabrina was unable to pay for groceries at the local corner shop, she exploded at the owner, a man named Sonny Patel, and called the police on him when he told her that she simply couldn't walk off with groceries that she didn't pay for. And how did that go? Well, the cops had to physically remove Sabrina from the shop because she was so irate and completely out of control.

So at least they didn't fall for the halo effect or whatever. Like they believed the owner. You know what's weird is that no matter how beautiful someone is, nobody looks good when they're acting like that. When they're freaking out on him. Because their face changes, their demeanor changes, their whole energy changes. It's just like I've never seen an angry person where I was like, oh, wow, that person looks great angry. Right, you're right.

This instance, though, it's just one among numerous that illustrated Sabrina's volatile temperament. And I'm sure it just wasn't at home. Obviously, we're seeing it spill out into the streets. Exactly. She was progressively descending into psychological turmoil and becoming increasingly engulfed in a world of delusion that Sophie wound up paying for with her life. Yeah. So let's explore this delusional world that Sabrina was slipping into and what may have been the impetus for what became an epic delusion

decline in mental health. Yeah. Dr. Jane Monckton-Smith, she's a forensic criminologist, indicates that the disintegration of Sabrina's relationship with her celebrity ex-boyfriend, Mark, and his subsequent decision to cease financial support set the stage for Sabrina's delusions and the tragic events that unfolded.

This financial cutoff ignited Sabrina's unfounded belief that Sophie Leone had been secretly hired by Mark to spy on her and her family. Despite Mark living in Los Angeles at the time and Sophie having never even met him, Sabrina was convinced of a conspiracy against her. Oh, she thought, obviously it's not what happened, but she was just thinking this internally.

Internally at first and then very much externally. Sabrina's paranoia escalated to a fever pitch and led her to believe that Sophie was not only a spy, but also involved in a sexual relationship with Mark Walton as well. The guy who lives in LA? Yeah, they never even met and he's in LA.

Furthermore, Sabrina believed that Sophie was aiding Mark in gaining access to Sabrina's children for the purpose of sexually assaulting them in some unspecified house. So she thinks that Mark is working, colluding with Sophie to take Sabrina's kids out of the house to an abandoned house somewhere else where he then rapes them.

Essentially, all of Sabrina's delusions were rooted in the false conviction that Sophie represented a direct threat to her family, which culminated in a desperate and misguided attempt to seek retribution.

As a result, Sabrina engaged in a series of brutally violent and recorded interrogations of Sophie, which spanned eight and a half grueling hours over 12 days. Wow. Wait, eight and a half hours a day over 12 days or eight and a half hours total? Total.

Of recorded interrogations. Yeah. So it went on longer, but this is what they captured on audio, like on their cell phone. Oh, wait, who captured? Sabrina and Sam. Oh, he's there too? Yep. You're going to go on to hear. I'm sorry. That was not clear. I know I just threw that at you. Yeah, that's fine. They're both there. During this time, Sabrina maintained that she could smell sex on Sophie upon returning from her alleged trysts with Mark Walton in some unknown house. Yeah, totally rational.

I get it. Now, before we go on to hear about these 12 days of audio recorded torture, of which there was eight and a half hours captured on the recording, let me tell you what already happened. Okay. All right.

Sophie's mother, Catherine, had started to receive text messages and Facebook messages from Sophie indicating that she was unhappy and that she wanted to come home but needed money to buy a plane ticket. So Sophie's mother, Catherine, deposited money into Sophie's account. But then Catherine received two phone calls from Sabrina indicating that Sophie could not go back to France yet as they were having disagreements that needed to be worked out before she could leave. Oh my God, that mother must be like...

I've seen interviews. It's too much. It was then that Sabrina severed all of Sophie's connections to the outside world by confiscating her phone and passport. She ceased paying Sophie's wages, rendering her financially dependent and confined within the home where she was coerced into working 80 hours a week without compensation. So she's still taking care of the kids this whole time. Everything. She's taking care of everything.

The only occasion Sophie was allowed to leave the house were to drop off and pick up the kids from school and to carry out grocery shopping. Other than that, she was confined to her room in the house. Sabrina then started to starve Sophie for weeks. And there are heartbreaking photographs from this period that show Sophie appearing severely emaciated, unwell, and visibly malnourished.

Michael Kroner, the owner of a local fish and chips restaurant. Do you like that it's fish and chips? So English. So British. Took pity on Sophie and would covertly give her free chips and soda after seeing that her condition was deteriorating.

By chips, you mean french fries. I do. Yeah, okay. He asked Sophie if she required assistance and even offered to lay out money for a plane ticket home. But Sophie, visibly scared, would just eat really quickly and then leave, consistently declining his offers to help. Yeah. And Sophie's fear was justified because one day Sabrina discovered Michael offering food to Sophie.

Yeah.

Of course, the actions of starving Sophie, isolating her from her friends and family, and severing her financial independence are recognized as classic tactics of abuse. Oh, yeah. These methods are designed to exert control and instill a sense of helplessness in the victim.

Sophie, being in a foreign country, added layers of isolation and uncertainty to her ordeal, as did her limited proficiency in English. My God, so many strikes against her. So many. But I want to stress this because the reality is that coercive control and manipulation can ensnare anyone, regardless of their strength, intelligence, or level of awareness. Of course, yeah. But this is a crucial distinction to understand. It's not accurate or fair to

To suggest that Sophie was a victim because she was naive or weak or shy or inherently vulnerable. Victimhood in cases of manipulation and control transcends such simplistic characterizations and highlights the sophisticated and insidious nature of these forms of abuse. Yeah. So it could happen to anyone. Of course. So after being starved, isolated, and properly terrified...

Sophie was ripe for what came next, and that was the recorded interrogations. With Sabrina in control, Sam held the phone to record the sessions and only occasionally interjected with questions and accusations of his own, assuming some sort of sick supporting role. According to Dr. Jane Monckton-Smith, who I mentioned earlier, the forensic criminologist,

It's very unusual for the woman to take lead in such situations. She noted that 95% of the time when there's a male and a female working together in this type of criminal activity, it's typically the male who assumes the dominant role. Yeah, but obviously not always. We've done cases where...

The woman was the aggressor in the case of beaten and battered boyfriend and OnlyFans femme fatale. Excellent. I will just say one thing.

Okay. One thing, they were not pair killers. So in both of those cases, the female perpetrator acted alone. What I'm talking about here is when there's a male and female pair working to execute the crime. Yeah, yeah. And abuse and torture. In those scenarios, 95% of the time, it's the male who plays the dominant role. Oh, gotcha. Right? Yeah. But you are correct to point out that we have had female perpetrators who have taken the reins of

horrifyingly on abusing their male counterparts. So that was your point. Like you have a spell cast over you and you can't break it. Yep, exactly. Terrifying. In total, there were about eight and a half hours of interrogations, again, that were spread over 12 days leading up to Sophie's death. These interrogations, which could more accurately be described as torture sessions, became progressively more violent over time.

During these sickening encounters, Sabrina repeatedly beat Sophie with an electrical cord, viciously slapped her, and callously informed her that she was going to kill her. Sabrina likened Sophie to a Nazi collaborator and called her worse than a murderer.

Wow. Because she thinks that she's colluding with Mark Walton. Yeah. Again, Mark Wahlberg. But... In a recording from August 8th, 2017, Sabrina is captured saying in total vitriolic rage, quote, I will not leave you alone until you tell me the truth. Is this clear? You understand? You will not go back to France until you've told me the truth. I'm sorry.

I'm going to spoil your life as you have spoiled mine. That's like the Salem witch trials, which I never did an episode. Well, you have it in there? I do bring up the witch trials momentarily. Okay. But that was very perceptive per use. Yeah.

So you may be wondering why Sabrina and Sam audio recorded the torture sessions. Like what would they get out of that? Yeah. I mean, there's one theory. I haven't seen this anywhere, but it's like kind of my own musing that they were sadists and they, it's almost like a trophy that they wanted to like re-listen to it.

But the reason that ultimately came to light was that Sabrina was adamant that the recordings would serve as crucial evidence when she reported to the police what Sophie was doing with Mark. As if the police...

Would care. But she thinks it's real. This is like... You can think it's real or not. It's not illegal. Yes. The sexual affair that she's alleging, totally not illegal. Yeah. She thinks that they're... Trying to steal her kids. Exactly. Sabrina's delusions were potent and they were sick. She truly believed that Sophie and Mark were teaming up to...

to sexually abuse her children. Specifically, she was convinced that Sophie was facilitating Mark's entry into their home so that he could inject Sabrina with drugs before kidnapping the children. Phew.

Oh, man. Then, according to Sabrina, Sophie and Mark would take the children to a secret location so that Mark could rape them. Yeah, of course. Sabrina believed that Sophie agreed to help Mark with this diabolical, perverse plan in exchange for a role in an upcoming Tom Cruise film, a claim that, of course, only further highlights the depth of Sabrina's delusional thinking. We gonna do a pop quiz about what movie it was? No. Hmm.

I kind of gave that vibe again. Yeah. Well, it's probably Top Gun Maverick. Because of the timing? Yeah. You're so good. It was sick. A great movie. You know your cinema. Yeah.

Sabrina and Sam threatened Sophie with rape, imprisonment, and more extreme violence. And remember, she was already being starved by this point. So they're telling her they're going to do what they're accusing her of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wild. Each time that Sophie vehemently denied each one of the outrageous allegations being hurled at her, it only served to ignite Sabrina's rage even further.

Sophie was also being kept awake for days on end, which added to her disorientation, confusion, and overall deterioration. That's like what cult leaders do. Yeah. To wear down their, you know, followers. Then after more than five weeks of starvation, beatings, terror, and torture, Sabrina and Sam resorted to... Five weeks? The starvation went on for that long. Oh my God.

Oh my God.

falsely confessed to conspiring with Mark Walton to abduct and rape Sabrina's children. Wait, are you saying that they did waterboarding in the witch trials? I'm just saying that they torture her to a point of eliciting a confession. The Salem witch trials, I just want to say why I said that before, because in the little bit of research that I did for the case that I never did, it was a theme over and over again that these people valued confession over honesty, over truth.

So like, just tell us you're a witch and then we won't kill you. But then you'll be labeled as a witch for the rest of your life. Right. And wear the scarlet letter. It's going to suck either way for you. And most of the time I feel like they died during the, um, the torturing to elicit that confession. I thought you were going to mention Abu Ghraib.

Well, I think waterboarding was invented in that situation. Was it? As an extraction technique. Wow. AKA torture. That was actually the one that they were like, it's too much. Really? I thought this went way back in time. It may. Like where they would hang people, medieval times, hang people upside down on a wheel and spin them. That's not waterboarding. Then their heads would be submerged in the water. It's totally different. Oh, is this what the Tao?

Howl over the face in the water. Okay. So you're basically drowning forever. But you don't die because you keep coughing up the water. Oh.

Oh, my God. So you're back on a plank at a slight downward angle, so the water just... And you can't breathe it out because the towel's on your face. You can't go... Oh, my God. It just drips into your nose, and because you're at that angle, it just goes in to your face, and you can't do anything about it. But that was too much. When they found out that they were waterboarding, they were like, you beat these guys, you cut them, you burn them, you sleep-deprive them, you starve them, whatever. Waterboarding's too much. Damn. Yeah, that's how...

horrific of a method it is. Right. Well, they ultimately got the confession out of Sophie, which is no surprise, right? Of course, yeah. And we, as sound-minded people, know that this confession was just Sophie's desperate attempt to end her suffering. Yeah. And to spare her life. Give them what they want. Maybe they'll get out. Right. Still, Sabrina and Sam relentlessly submerged her head underwater repeatedly until, tragically...

Oh, my God. That is fucking horrendous. Yeah.

What is undeniable is that both were complicit in the tragic and heartbreaking death of Sophie Leone. 100%. Sabrina and Sam felt zero remorse for what they'd done. Sam too? As evidenced by the fact that in a final, sickening act, Sabrina and Sam went on to have sex with each other on the bathroom floor a couple of feet away from Sophie's dead body. Wow.

Wow, so interesting. The motivation behind this deplorable act remains unclear, whether it was Sabrina's way of rewarding Sam for his complicity, or if it stemmed from a twisted sense of triumph upon extracting the confession that Sabrina obsessively sought, thereby reinforcing her delusions. Oh my God. Like a celebration. Yeah, yeah.

But according to forensic psychologist Emma Kenney, this behavior just starkly reflects their detachment from their heinous acts. That they could go on and do that. Yeah, of course. I mean, that's insane behavior. Beyond. It was ultimately determined that Sophie suffered horrific injuries that were consistent with someone who had been in a catastrophic car accident. Really? Yeah.

As a result... Underwater. Well, the beatings as well with the electrical cords and the slapping and everything. As a result of the abuse, Sophie incurred a broken sternum, which is like very hard to do. Oh, yeah. A broken jaw and four cracked ribs. The exact cause of death was difficult to discern based on what was left of her body, but it's believed that at the end of the brutal beatings and starvation...

She was intentionally drowned, and that's what was the precise cause of death. Forensics was able to determine that the healing patterns observed on Sophie's sternum indicated she survived with that injury for three days before her death. Have you ever cracked a rib? No.

It's agony. No. So to have four broken and your sternum? And that the sternum was starting to heal. Oh my God. After having sex on the bathroom floor, Sam and Sabrina doused Sophie's tiny body. It was tiny at this point because she was starved. Yeah. In caustic acid, stuffed her into a suitcase and left her inside of a shed in the backyard.

A few days later, they set Sophie's body along with some chicken thighs alight, attempting to destroy all evidence of the crime and of the precarious... So stupid. I can't continue. There's a guy whose whole TikTok channel...

coughing over farts. And it's like... The cough is so minuscule and he just farts for like seven seconds but goes... Yeah. I mean, that's what this is. The chicken thighs to cover up the fucking human body being barbecued. And the chicken was being cooked on this tiny little barbecue. Like you could probably put it on your counter in your kitchen. Like a tiny little like George Foreman-esque type of barbecue. Yeah. And then they...

set alight a human being. Yeah, there's like a little charcoal grill and then a human pyre and it's like all the smoke. Exactly. Exactly. When forensic experts initially examined Sophie's remains without yet knowing her identity, they mistook them for those of a child due to her significantly diminished and emaciated state at the time of her death. It's impossible to determine the full extent of the injuries that Sophie may have suffered or if she was suffering

subjected to sexual assault during the time in which she was confined and tortured, including all of the hours that were captured on the audio recording. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was... I'm thinking about the sternum. They would have to, like, lay her on the floor, pin her down, and then hit her with a sledgehammer. Oh, my God. Right in the middle of the chest. Like, when they do surgeries, like open-heart surgeries, opening that sternum is, like, a whole thing. Eesh.

That's so tragic. Yeah. It's just heartbreaking to think of this poor girl. By the time her remains were found in the bonfire, her body had been so severely damaged that collecting any additional evidence was just unfeasible. Now, one of the first questions that I had when researching this case was where the hell was the au pair agency, right? Yeah.

Well, it's... Why they're supposed to check in. Absolutely. Yeah. So I had an au pair for one year when my kids were very, very young because we all know that I struggled initially, especially, but she had weekly meetings with the au pair coordinator who was a woman who lived five minutes from my house, monthly outings with the other au pairs in

in the area and like daily email check-ins. I too had meetings with the au pair coordinator every week. Yeah. Like this is legit. You know what I mean? There's some good agencies. There's some not so great agencies. Here's what I found out. The au pair employment gig in England is very different than it is here. So au pairs are classified and regulated completely differently compared to standard workers or employees in England. Yes.

They are considered part of a cultural exchange program rather than formal employees, based on a mutual agreement without a formal employment contract. Oh, really? Yes, very interesting. But this places them in a very unique category, not fully covered or protected by the conventional legal definitions of workers or employees. Rights such as minimum wage, regulated working hours, or access to employment benefits do not extend to au pairs.

making them easier targets, obviously, for potential exploitation and abuse. So there are these organizations that aim to promote good practice amongst host families and agencies, but it's not enough, obviously, what they're doing. Even in the U.S., they have hourly stipulations, but minimum wage doesn't apply. There's no benefits for them. You know what I mean? But there is rules around how much they can work and, you know,

Oh, absolutely. Technically, they can't work more than a work week, 40 hours a week. Yeah. But a lot of people still pay their au pair under the table to like work extra. And they have to have one weekend day off every weekend in the US. Yeah.

Within 36 hours of discovering Sophie's remains, Sabrina and Sam were both charged with murder. Initially, Sam fell on his sword and took full responsibility, likely in an attempt to shield Sabrina, for whom he still harbored feelings despite the horrific events. I mean, he was like, I wonder if he was also victimized by her. You know what I mean? You think? Well, I mean, most sources say he was just like smitten with her and like absolutely had like... Obsessed. Yeah. Yeah.

But as the trial unfolded, both Sabrina and Sam turned against each other, each blaming the other for Sophie's actual death. They also continued to throw accusations against poor Sophie, which Judge Nicholas Hilliard QC ultimately dismissed, stating they held no truth whatsoever.

Do you believe that? That they're in court and they're still saying stupid bullshit about Sophie? I'd like to call Mark Walton to the stand. Well, basically, yeah. Did you have sex with Sophie?

Tell me. Interviews with him since are like, he's like devastated. Oh, I'm sure. He is devastated that he was somehow connected with this absolutely horrific, heartbreaking tragedy. And that could have been him too. Yeah. Easily could have been him. It could have been anyone. On a different timeline. Exactly right. At trial, which took place in the Central Criminal Court of England in Wales, commonly known as the Old Bailey, the court learned that the couple suffered from a shared delusional disorder known as...

Fouliadeux or madness of two. Fouliadeux. Where individuals in close proximity share the same delusions. So interesting. I'd never heard of it before this case. It's like a je ne sais quoi. Yes, sure. You know what that means? Yeah, it means like, I don't know how, je ne sais quoi, like. I don't know what. I don't know what, exactly. Like you have a je ne sais quoi to you. Right.

This condition, which is also referred to as shared psychotic disorder, can extend to groups as well, which is known as foile à trois or foile à quatre. I said that wrong. Can you say four? Être. Very good. Yes.

You can say the whole thing if you want to be fancy. Folie à quatre. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Oui, oui. Ménage à quatre. And even affect entire families. Folie en famille. What did you call it? Shared psychotic disorder? Yes. That's such an American version of folie à deux. Yeah. Folie à deux sounds like a fun time. Well, it isn't, but yes. I'm going to go to England for a couple of days, have a little folie à deux. Kind of sounds like...

I don't know, like dirty. Well, like menage a trois. Menage a trois, exactly. That's why I said menage a quatre. Oh, you see, I... You missed a lot this episode. I can't wait for you to go back and listen to it. I'm very sorry. It's okay. I get very sucked into these cases.

This delusional disorder, the psychotic disorder, was first identified in the 19th century, and it's now recognized under the broader category of psychotic disorders in the DSM-5. Typically, there is one dominant psychotic individual or an inducer with the organic disease having the actual delusion. So in this case, Sabrina. Yeah.

then the delusions are then transmitted to the second person who may go on to truly believe the delusions as well. It could be fully, it could be partially, but they do start to believe. Yeah, of course. And that's Sam.

One of the earliest documented cases detailed in Uncommon Psychiatric Syndromes by Enoch and Ball describes a couple, Margaret and Michael, who were both 24 years old and shared paranoid beliefs about an intruder spreading dust and wearing down their shoes, illustrating how individuals can enter a feedback loop, amplifying each other's paranoid delusions. Yeah, what were they measuring the soles of their shoes or something? I couldn't tell you. But,

Am I saying that correctly? Is it two or three? Two. Apparently not. Yeah. Is most commonly found among romantic partners, but it can also emerge in siblings as well. Yeah. In terms of Sabrina Kudelich,

Kudwi, she experienced a range of delusional thinking and lived in a warped reality, suffering from borderline personality disorder and depression. Obviously, neither BPD nor depression automatically make someone into a homicidal maniac. Yeah. There were many, many

many variables at play here. The way that Sabrina saw and approached the world was very different from a mentally fit individual. And the events that occurred in her life were interpreted differently than someone not experiencing delusions and helped to shape her self-identity and behavior. Yeah, but even then, you can like, all of these...

mental health conditions, there's still something more here with all the cases, whether they have BPD or paranoid schizophrenia, like plenty of people have those things and don't go on to torture and kill individuals. Absolutely. It's not because of that condition in isolation that anyone goes on to do what they go on to do. No, no, no. I wonder what it is. I think it's

I think it's a combination of mad and bad. You know what I mean? Yeah. Was Sabrina... Well, because this part I think is interesting. Was Sabrina a sadist? Did she get off on torturing Sophie? I believe that she was truly delusional. 100%. Me too. But I do also think that...

that she felt some kind of satisfaction in humiliating Sophie and watching her suffer. Yeah, probably. Right? This was evidenced by the fact that she fucked her husband within arm's reach of Sophie's corpse. My God, that's so untenable.

In terms of Sam Medini, although it's hard to know if he just went along with everything to please Sabrina or if he truly believed her focaccia stories about Sophie, I think he likely did suffer from shared psychotic disorder. Yeah. Because if you hear the interrogations, which I don't recommend that you listen to, but you can listen to them, you can also find transcripts.

he does start asking her questions too. And he does start like impressing upon her this need for her to confess and to identify where the house is where he's bringing Sabrina's children to. Yeah, he's like that kid in the Christmas story where he's like, yeah, get him.

Yeah. I know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Get them. Yeah. Yeah. But I think he really believed in what Sabrina was saying. Oh, I mean, there's a lot to unpack here. There is. Both Sabrina and Sam wound up confessing in court to perverting the course of justice by burning Sophie's remains, though they continued to deny murdering her. Wait, so they admitted to burning her in a barbecue, but not to killing her? They blamed it on the other. Oh.

Oh, okay. So nobody took the rap for that. Yeah, yeah. Sabrina stuck to a bullshit story that Sophie, you know, fucked off three days earlier and that she hadn't seen her since. So like, how could I have killed her? I haven't even seen her for three days. Even though there were the hours of audio recording, plus a photo that was found on the phone that Sabrina took a day before Sophie died. And that metadata will tell you when the audio recording was done. Exactly right.

Needless to say, after a 43-day trial and 30 hours of jury deliberation, Sabrina Cuida and Wissam Sam Medini were both found guilty of murder and sentenced to a minimum term of 30 years. And why, Tank, based on your deep well of knowledge by this point in your true crime journey, a full year into it, does an insanity defense not hold water in this case? Because they weren't insane. Why?

I don't know. Okay, it's okay. I just, you know, sometimes you just come out of the woodwork with like the knowledge that you store. So I wanted to give you the floor. Give me some hints. All right. So insanity is a complex legal term. It's not a psychiatric term.

And to be declared legally insane, an individual must be unable to distinguish between right and wrong at the time in which the crime was committed. And while Sabrina and by proxy Sam were indeed delusional, they knew exactly what they were doing when they were doing it. Yeah, they were aware. Absolutely. Yeah, there wasn't like some kind of 12, five week psychotic break happening here. Right. So there's no insanity defense. No. In this case. No.

And Sabrina tried to cover it up by first telling the police that she hadn't even seen Sophie for three days. Both of them tried to destroy Sophie's body to get rid of the evidence. And multiple ex-boyfriends of Sabrina, including Mark Walton, took the stand to testify that Sabrina was a dangerous, violent, unstable woman whom they had all feared at one point or another.

During her sentencing hearing, what did Sabrina do? Pop quiz. A, accuse the jury of being in cahoots with Mark Walton. Mark Wahlberg? B, read an apology note that she had written to Sophie. C, tell Sophie's parents that she was a worthless traitor who was better off gone. Oh my God. So she either... What was the first one? Accused the jury of being in cahoots with Mark. Accused the jury.

read a letter, or told her parents good riddance. Right. Which one is most likely here? I believe that she...

accuse the jury of being in cahoots? No. I can always tell when it's no. By the way, you just perk up and you get so happy to say no. I like to see you succeed, just not in pop quizzes. Yeah, sure. Maybe you're a little bit of a sadist, huh? Maybe. Maybe. I won't deny it. Maybe she told her parents that she was worthless. No. Wow. I think this is maybe your worst episode of pop quizzes. By far. By far. Right? Yeah. My eyes are burning from the lights. That's why. Okay. Okay.

We'll kill the lights next time, all right? She read an apology note in court during sentencing saying that she wished that she could turn the clock back and that she was so sorry for what happened to Sophie. I have the whole note in front of me. I won't go through it. Yeah. But it's just so self-serving, obviously, and so superficial and so absolutely ridiculous. Yeah.

One line I will read. I will now live without hope and I can't ever imagine ever being happy again. What a fucking narcissist. Yeah. It's all about her. Yeah. Sophie's parents were left shattered by the devastating loss of their cherished daughter. They sat through the trial and heard Sophie's voice pleading for her life on the audio recordings. Oh, no. At times breaking down in tears and having to leave the court. Yeah.

And what will continue to haunt them for the rest of their lives was a little note that police discovered in Sophie's room, which she had been locked up in for weeks, that read, Why me? I need help to stop them. Oh my God. Fighting back his tears, Patrick Leone, Sophie's dad, has said, quote, I try to think of Sophie the last time I saw her, happy and smiling, but sometimes I cannot block out the horror. The

The picture of Sophie smiling in my house with the dog, telling me that she loves me and that she will miss me, has been replaced with the sound of my baby's voice full of fear and thick with tears. Why would they be there for that?

They were there for the trial. You know, I definitely would not have blamed them for stepping out. I'm sure many parents in their situation would have. I also think that people want to be there and stick it out just for what it represents. You know what I mean? Like solidarity and support for...

Yeah. For what their daughter experienced, but I don't know that I would be able to do it. No, I would not be able to. He went on to say, I... Sorry, but I understand the solidarity thing. Like she went through that. I can't sit here and listen to it. Exactly. Yeah. He went on to say, I have seen photos of her starved body, like something out of Auschwitz that hardly resembled my precious child.

I don't want the image of a charred body, a recognizable human nose and fingers to be my last memory of her. And that's the case. That case fucking sucked. Yeah. That was like a lot of heaviness. Yeah. Well, it's centered obviously largely on Sabrina and her delusions and what that type of

illness can do, what it can drive someone to do. It's inexcusable, but it's also just, I mean, the human mind, this is what we always circle back to. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. And it can be very dark. All right, investigate us later. Are you ready for Tank's tidbits today? Oh my God, yes. Okay. It's a good one. I think, I don't know. I heard somewhere recently that it is impossible to love your kids too much.

Okay. People are always worried about coddling or not preparing them for the real world because the real world is tough and they're going to fucking hate you out there. Like, first of all, what kind of message are you sending? Second of all, that's going to be true anyway. Send them out into the world standing

stable and filled with, you know, at least some kind of a foundation of unconditional love. Completely agree. Why does one thing have to do with the other? I don't know. Why does the amount of love you give and they receive impact their ability to like cope with the real world? And I'm obviously not saying to let your kids do whatever they want to do. No, you're not saying that. Or to keep them from making mistakes. What I'm saying is that when they do make a mistake and they're really like,

Instead of coming down on them and making the whole situation worse because you're angry at the situation,

I think sometimes I will turn it up a little bit because I want to make sure that they know that that's not acceptable. They know it's not acceptable already because of whatever happened in the situation. So if my older son does something to my younger son and he starts crying and he's upset and whatever, it doesn't really do me any good to be like, oh, why would you do that? Like, you know, I used to do, I used to be like, you know, when you do something to him, you're actually, you're also hurting my son, which is unacceptable. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think,

I think it's okay to show emotion and to show that like behaviors have consequences. And this is one of the consequences. I'm angry. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's okay, but that doesn't mean that you're not providing unconditional love. Right. Like, yeah, I think what I'm trying to say is that like they, they did a study about kids that grew up in all different environments. And rather than the ones who grew up in like overachieving,

over the top loving households being unprepared for the real world, they wound up being the most stable, reliable, successful, happy adults. I can't picture what that environment looks like. What environment looks like? Like over the top, unconditional love. Well, there's a page called the Daily Dad on Instagram. And one of the things that he says all the time or he posts is that

kids don't need you to be ripped. They don't need you to have a cool car. They don't need you to make a ton of money. They don't need you to be anything except someone who loves them unconditionally. That should be first and foremost. Yeah. Between in the parent child relationship. And I think, I don't know, I'm speaking for myself. I forget that sometimes. And I think people forget it sometimes in general. Well, because you, you also realize, I believe the,

the gravity of your role, which is like you're shaping future adults, right? And you don't want your kid to be an asshole and you don't want your kid not to be able to function. So you think that like you have to lay down the law or you have to present things in a certain way or else he won't get it. Exactly. It's not... I mean...

I think there's a balance. There's a balance, but the studies show that the kids who are over-consequenced wind up being less stable later on. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So just something to think about. I like it. That's what a tidbit is. It's not a rule. It's just a thought. I like it. Anytime, though, you're going to preach love, I'm here for it. All right, good.

Thank you for doing all that work for that episode. My pleasure. You want to tell me what the name of the episode is now? Kim Kardashian's Killer Clone. Wow. Are you going to spell clone with a K? Let's do that. Yeah, because the Kardashians do everything with a K. Let's do it. Yeah, all right, good. Remember how I only recently found out that there's a boy Kardashian? I don't know if I knew that. Yeah. I don't know if I knew that you didn't know that. Yeah, we talked about this.

I still, I'm still baffled. I just found out basically that there's a boy Kardashian. Yeah. Well, you just realized that I came up with psychopedia. So things occur to me late. Yeah. Fair point. Well, you're also not involved in pop culture, which is nice for you. It's so nice. Anytime I find myself getting sucked in. Yeah. I'm miserable. There's nothing to it. It's all masturbatory. Nothing comes of it. Nothing goes into it. It's just looking at someone else live their life. Mm-hmm.

That you have no relation to. And they don't really listen, whatever. But like. They don't provide much value. Right. If it's an escape for people, like cool. Yes. For me, it was just, it'd be like a dark hole. Yeah. I would only watch them if I feel like to feel better about myself. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, not them in particular, just reality TV in general. Because they capture the worst of people on reality TV. Yeah. They sure do. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Well, if you made it this far, Megs, Meg 2 featuring Jason Statham, you're a real one. And we appreciate you sticking it out with us. Yeah. Thanks, guys. We really do. And let's give a round of applause for Investigator Slater's diligent work on this case. Thank you. You're far too kind. Yeah. Very good. Jay-Z, shout out. Hova, we'll see you guys at the next episode. Yes, we will. Bye. Bye.