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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I am your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my co-host. What the fuck was that? A new way of saying it. Investigators later. And Cash, sitting on the Cash couch. Best boy in the world. That sounds like a game or something. Cash couch? Like a game show. Try and say it three times fast. Cash couch, cash couch, cash couch. Fine. I'm a genius. Fine, just nail it.
So from what I understand, this case is very good. You keep hyping it up. I keep hyping it up? Dave hyped it up to me. Well, firefighter Dave enjoyed this one, yes. And then I said, how many pages is it? And you told me. And then I winced and you said, why, do you have something? And I said, yes, ADHD. And I'm scared.
This is the same length that every other episode is. You will be fine. We'll see about that. I will tell you, though, it's a little bit of a different flavor, this case. Yeah. How so? It's not gory. It's not gruesome. It's tragic and heartbreaking. And, of course, there are crimes involved. But it's just not levels and levels of depravity that we need to unravel. Oh, good. So no jars involved.
of saliva. Fuck that. That was the worst thing I ever heard in any episode. Damn. I mean, a room full of jars of saliva? Kill me now. Is that worse than what it really was, which was a collection of used condoms? That's very strange. Very weird. But like, to
to fill... I don't want to talk about this. Well, anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, we are referencing our Blood Play Dominatrix episode. So if you want to find out what the hell we're talking about, go check out that episode. Yeah, sure. If you want to hear it, that was a tough case. It was very tough. It was a really tough case. And I'm glad we did it, but I'm also so glad it's over. Listen, these Patreon people are true. I mean, I say it every episode, they're truly getting out of hand with their names. It's a
A beautiful thing to watch. I almost want to read. Oh my God, I'm just looking at them. All right. First of all, this is a regular episode where we talk about a case. Investigators Later Presents, I cringe. Basically. Over on Patreon, which is patreon.com slash psychopedia pod, we do episodes of unhinged
which is where we revisit a case and I'm in the driver's seat and she is hanging off the back of the vehicle trying to keep up. Screaming. Yeah, it's not great for her. I know that. It is great for me. It's very difficult. I try and keep up probably much like you try to keep up during the regular case. We literally switch roles. Yeah. And that's fine. It's a nice break.
Okay, so just another little piece of news for you little fucking psychos and more for the little freaks and the semen demons over on Patreon. We're doing a special event. Muscles and murder. I never know when you're going to just announce things. I wasn't ready. Well, I'm very excited about it. I know, I am too. I'm very excited.
I'm going to work out and kick my own ass. There's going to be a guy there, the guy who owns the gym. He's going to run me through some stuff. My goal is to hit every body part and do 50 pull-ups over the course of the hour. Great. Yeah. I really want to be hurting during the episode. I really want to see that. Well, I want to just not even be able to concentrate but force myself to hear what you're saying. You once mentioned that a reason why you love working out is because of all the blood that rushes to your head.
You're very sharp. Like you're very like on the ball when you work out. Yeah. So you should be very into the case in spite of the fact that you will be working out while I deliver it. No, it's going to be great. I'm going to look fucking jacked. I'm going to get pumped. I'm going to be wearing a tank top. I'm not going to be in there in a sweatshirt. I'm not trying to learn like real life.
like rips and shit. They're watching. Yeah, but I'm going to teach them some stuff. Are you? They're going to see how great my form is. I think that you're going to surprise me with it. I have one idea of how this is going to work. Yeah. And it very much seems like you have a different idea of how this is going to work. Yeah. Although you're technically in charge, I'm going to be in charge. So that's going to be for all levels over at patreon.com slash psychopedia pod. And that's going to be a new case that's not public ever at all. Mm-hmm.
It's just on Patreon, and I'm very excited. That's going to be for the $5 level, but if you're $10, you get it also. Little freaks, semen demons, welcome to my world, which is the gym. It's where I live. And we'll be videoing. Of course. Obviously. Hence the tank top conversation, right? So I have to just quick give a couple of shout outs to our Patreon supporters. And I just... Something cool...
That's a name on Patreon. They've noted that they have not been shouted out yet. Well, listen, I don't know when they signed up. I have no idea. We only do like 10 an episode. So it's hard to get to everybody. So give them Miss Proppers or her. Or her. Shabizness Gone Wild. Someone who really is after our heart. Not Today, a Sister, which is, I know you said that last time, but it's just, it's worth repeating. Cash's number one fan. Did you hear that?
boy you got a fan you got a number one fan I just want to save this oh cash fan club on patreon oh my my genitals tit puncher yeah got it all in that's like 47 episodes I can't wait for the new hamster new gerbil ones to start coming in um I feel like there may have been but I'm not sure lobata may nice
Pop quiz, hotshot. Nice. Shout out to you. Yeah, thank you. Cash Me Outside, Dispatcher Molly, Kristen Turner, Jennifer Gardner, not Jennifer Garner, although we are friends on Instagram. Ooh, a little flex. Not a big deal. Dutchadoozy, and Dutch is the name of one of your dogs or something? Me? Dave's dog. We just meeting? Dutch? No, you know who you're thinking of.
Who? At the University of Maryland. Yeah. Yeah. One of the wrestlers you guys used to hang out with had a dog named Dutch. He had Coco. Oh, geez. Okay. And you are off the handle. Yeah. I was tanking high school. Shout out to you. And floozy doozy flea bottom. Love it. Just fucking... I mean, people are crushing it on there. To get this out there publicly, flea bottom is a place in...
Game of Thrones. Yes. Which took me a while to figure out. Yes, it's in Westeros. I want merch that says Flea Bottom-ist. Wow. You know what I love? Yeah. That I don't feel self-conscious anymore when I mispronounce something. Like, it's a roast. It becomes like everybody roasting me, but I feel the love in the roasting and I'm okay with it now. You say so many words, you're going to mispronounce them. Yeah. Yeah, here it is. Mr. Bottom-ist, comma, Flea. Incredible. Yeah.
And bottom is spelled like Dahmer. I love it. So yeah, flea bottomist. All right. So not the instigator minding my business. I can't handle any more of these names. We have to get to the case. I'd like to get to the case. So without further business, taking it back. I was like, I thought you were going to come out of the gate with something fresh. Okay. You ready? I am ready.
The butterfly effect is a concept that encapsulates the profound idea that even the tiniest actions or events can set in motion a chain reaction of consequences that reverberate throughout time and space.
It suggests that an event in one corner of the world could, in theory, create a ripple effect that ultimately leads to a greater reaction in another part of the world. This notion illuminates the interconnectedness of our world and the delicate balance that exists within it. I love that concept. I love it too. One classic example of the butterfly effect is weather patterns.
Imagine a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon rainforest. The air disturbance created by that small action can set off a cascade of changes in atmospheric conditions that may lead to altered wind patterns, which in turn might influence the formation of storms or weather events on the other side of the planet.
What begins as a seemingly insignificant, unrelated action can lead to unforeseeable and substantial consequences that reshape the contours of destiny itself. Are we talking about Ashton Kutcher today? Oh, I did see that movie. We can talk about Ashton Kutcher, but I'm actually going to talk about somebody else. I was wondering if he was the subject of the case. I'm talking about you.
In one second. What? Because a personal example of the butterfly effect involving the both of us tank goes back to the year 2004 when my then boyfriend, Firefighter Dave, made an impromptu decision to buy a new printer from the Best Buy store in Comac, New York.
Little did he or anyone else know that this seemingly inconsequential decision would set off a chain of events that continue to reverberate today. Yes, they do. Because as firefighter Dave walked towards the cash register to complete his purchase that day... Dave Goldstein! He unexpectedly bumped into a familiar face from his college days, a meathead named Tank. Yeah, right.
They caught up briefly and exchanged phone numbers, a chance encounter that seemed minor at the time, although exciting, but minor in the grand scheme of things, right? Yeah. It could have been nothing. Could have been. Fast forward 20 years, and the ripple effect from that spontaneous reunion at Best Buy has had a profound impact.
It led to the creation of a Crimity podcast, which has not only transformed the lives of two appreciative co-hosts, but also shaped their quirky family of little psychos, little freaks, and semen demons, and everything else that will come to fruition in psychopedia land. It's also made our kids closer. I mean, the ripple effects are far and wide. Well, but the effects caused by that chance encounter...
Being psychopedia pales in comparison to the effect that chance encounter had on my mind, body, and soul. Yes. Well said. Because me and Dave have talked about some things. Your friendship far exceeds anything else. But to make it relatable to our wonderful listeners, I'm going to just use the psychopedia. They don't care about my friendship. Guys, it's legit. Yeah.
Today's case, in my perspective, serves as a haunting illustration of the butterfly effect. While it may not precisely adhere to the concept, given that the initial incident was not a minor occurrence akin to a butterfly flapping its wings, but rather a profoundly devastating event, the chain of events that ensued were terrifyingly tumultuous and verged on catastrophe for one man.
And that one man was 27-year-old Juan Catalan. Juan found himself entangled in a complex tale of gang-related turmoil, unfounded accusations, and instances of police misconduct that coalesced to wrongfully charge him with a murder that he did not commit. But to tell Juan's story, we must also recount the tragic tale of an innocent 16-year-old girl named Martha Puebla,
Take your family to work day? No.
they kind of all went. She was too little for school and I believe he and his girlfriend worked with his dad. Oh, okay. If you must know. Yeah, I was curious. When they arrived, Juan proceeded to park his car beside a truck in the parking lot, a routine action he had performed countless times before. But in that moment, on that day, Juan's life took an entirely unforeseen turn, propelling him into a nightmarish maelstrom of confusion, chaos, and
and fear. Maelstrom is a sick word. I don't think I've ever used it before on this podcast too. I love it. Because within a matter of seconds after parking his car and turning off the ignition, an LAPD SWAT team surrounded his family and swiftly closed in on him with weapons raised and tensions high. SWAT team agents with the special investigation section, aka death squad,
proceeded to forcefully remove Juan from his vehicle before throwing him face down onto the asphalt. Apparently, Juan Catalan was being arrested on suspicion of murdering the 16-year-old girl named Martha Puebla, who I mentioned in the intro a few seconds ago, on May 12, 2003, outside of her home in Sun Valley, California. But this was news to Juan. Who's Martha? Literally. Yeah.
Upon being brought to the L.A. County Sheriff's Department following that outlandishly dramatic and forceful arrest, Juan was taken to an interrogation room in handcuffs where he was confronted by Detective Juan Rodriguez and Detective Martin Pinner. The detectives immediately demanded that Juan cut to the chase and provide a detailed account of the events that transpired
on the day of Martha's murder. And where is this again? Do we know? Los Angeles. Los Angeles, okay. But Juan had no idea what the detectives were talking about. Yeah, what are you talking about? Murdering a teenager? It was absolutely preposterous.
Sure. Sure.
And he certainly hadn't killed her. And while this was mostly true and accurate in terms of having nothing to do with Martha, it turned out that Juan had indeed encountered Martha on one occasion, precisely 11 days before her death on May 1st, 2003, after Martha was summoned to speak at a pretrial hearing in a homicide case at which Juan's brother, Mario, was allegedly involved. Wow.
Oh, okay. And Juan went to that pretrial hearing to support his brother. So technically, he was in the same room as Martha Puebla. But aside from that somewhat random encounter, and they never actually met that day or anything, Juan had no idea who she was and maintained that he had no involvement in her unfortunate death.
Now, Juan was no stranger to the criminal underbelly of Los Angeles, California, because his brother, Mario, was affiliated with an L.A. gang called the Vineland Boys, also known as VBS or the Vineland Street Locos, which originated from North Hollywood in January of 1988. With an estimated membership of around 300 affiliates, the criminal street gang predominantly operates within the San Fernando Valley area,
and are infamous for their heavy participation in drug trafficking, extortion, and acts of daily violence. And it was a gang-related incident involving the Vineland Boys that set in motion a series of tragic events that would forever link Juan Catalan to Martha Puebla, whom I previously referred to as the butterfly in this case, with respect to the butterfly effect. Yeah, I mean, I can see why the cops might think he had something to do with it.
Yeah. His brother was on trial for a homicide, right? Correct. She was a witness? Being involved, but yes, she was a witness. We're going to definitely be speaking about these details, so it'll become way more clear. Yeah, it's a reach, but... You're onto it. You got to start somewhere. I guess they started there. And a couple of other things definitely popped up that made it reasonable for him to be a suspect, but it's how he was...
treated and how the detectives really had tunnel vision for him and only him that made this into such a wild case that landed a feature on psychopedia
It was Martha's unwitting involvement as a witness to a violent boy's crime that would not only wind up sealing her tragic fate, but would also go on to thrust Juan Catalan into the eye of an absolute shitstorm. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.
My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Here's how it all started. On November 27th, 2002, shortly before 2 a.m.,
Martha received a visit from her friend Maribel and Maribel's boyfriend Christian Vargas. After Maribel and Christian pulled up to Martha's home in Sun Valley, Maribel got out of the car to tap on Martha's ground floor window to see if she wanted to hang out with her and Christian. As the girls talked at the window, the unmistakable sound of gunshots suddenly filled the night air.
In response, Maribel jumped through Martha's window and hid in her bedroom for several minutes until the terrifying sound of gunshots subsided. Then Maribel ran back to the car where she found her boyfriend, Christian, riddled with bullets but still alive.
Christian begged Maribel for help before breathing his last breath, slumping over the steering wheel and passing away. Oh, so they weren't like gunshots in the neighborhood. They were gunshots like right near them. They were intentional gunshots fired into their car. No, but I'm saying like she heard gunshots and jumped into the window. Oh yeah, it was horrible.
100 feet away, maybe? Yeah, she didn't hear them like off in the distance. No, she heard them. Which would be scary anyway. Absolutely. The investigation into Christian Vargas' murder was promptly undertaken by LAPD detectives Rodriguez and Pinner, the very same detectives who would go on to lead the investigation into Juan Catalan.
Christian's murder was instantly categorized as gang-related with strong suspicions centering on a notoriously violent, violent boys member known as Jose Ledesma, a.k.a. Peps. And this is in 2002, you said? November 2002. So like five years ago. Okay. That's what it fucking feels like. 2002 feels like it was maybe seven years ago. I know. It cannot be more than seven. I'm stuck in high school. Yeah. Forever.
Detectives swiftly obtained a warrant to search Pep's residence that night while he was out, at which point they discovered a loaded assault rifle concealed beneath his mattress, as well as letters written by other Vineland boys who were incarcerated. Oh, they were writing letters to each other? Isn't that cute? So sweet. They were penning. Yeah. Pep's got wind of the fact that his home was being searched and that he was a prime suspect in the murder of Christian Vargas. In response, he and his father
buddy, Mario Catalan, quickly got out of Dodge and made their way south of the border to Mexico. After crossing the border, Pepts and Mario checked into a motel in Tijuana with the intention of keeping a low profile and evading law enforcement. However, a mere 48 hours after their arrival in Tijuana, Mario had a drunken and public altercation with his girlfriend that wound up drawing the attention of Mexican law enforcement.
After responding to this domestic disturbance, the Mexican police soon discovered that both Mario and his pal Pep's were subjects of outstanding warrants in the United States. They had one fucking job to do in this hotel, which was to lay low. And they not only didn't lay low, but they like went crazy and drew the attention of law enforcement. And the federale don't fuck around. No.
Moreover, Mexican authorities discovered a 9mm semi-automatic pistol inside the Mustang that Peps and Mario had driven from California to Mexico. Yeah, you can't have guns. Which was the very same firearm implicated in the shooting death of Christian Vargas. Ooh, that's not looking good for the boys. Remarkably...
This same weapon had also been employed in another homicide that claimed the life of another gang member named Enrique Acosta just four days before Christian's murder. That's a hot gun. Needless to say, by the evening of November 30th, 2002, Pep's and Mario were extradited from Mexico and transported to the LAPD's North Hollywood station for processing, where detectives Pinner and Rodriguez had been eagerly awaiting.
And it was then, at this very early stage in the investigation, when Detective Pinner made a critical, lethal error while questioning Pep's. In an effort to link Pep's to the location of Christian Vargas' murder, which again happened right outside Martha Puebla's home, Pinner indicated that he knew that Pep's had gone to see Martha Puebla.
Pinner further indicated that he had evidence and witnesses to back this up, as well as an eyewitness who could place Pep's at the scene of the crime and was willing to testify. In an utterly inexcusable display of poor police work, and it pains me to say it, Pinner went on to explicitly mention, by name, Martha Puebla as the eyewitness willing to testify.
To what end? Like, why would he do that? Just a mistake? No, no, that's my point. It was poor police work. He had done this intentionally to shake up peps, to rattle his cage. Oh, to let him know that there was actually a real person. You're fucked. I got an eyewitness.
And I'm going to prove it. I have her name and I have more. Oh, just write her fucking death certificate, dude. I mean, thank you. What an asshole. In an effort to underscore this point that he had a witness and all his ducks in a row to just crucify peps.
Detective Pinner presented Pep's with a lineup comprising six mugshot images, including one of Pep's himself, asserting that these very photographs had been shown to Martha Puebla. And of course, Martha had identified Pep's as being the killer she saw shoot Christian Vargas. Pop quiz. What does law enforcement typically call a compilation of six mugshots? A, six-pack. B, six-piece McNuggets. C,
C, the half-baked half-dozen. It's one of those? Yeah. Six-pack, six-piece chicken McNuggets. No chicken, just McNuggets, but fine. Well, it's inherent, implicit in the, I guess they don't need to, it would be redundant to say chicken McNuggets. It sure would. They're not beef McNuggets. That would be gross. Even grosser than chicken McNuggets. And the last one was what? Half-baked half-dozen? Yes. Fuck.
Fuck, a half-baked half-dozen? No. Yeah, I don't know. Six-pack? Yeah. Okay. I figured half-baked half-dozen because it maybe came from the nasty days of police work. Oh, no, I just made that up. Okay. Not only did the photograph of Pep's have a circle around it, but it also bore the initials MP inscribed below it, obviously MP standing for Martha Puebla. Additionally, along the margin of this six-pack,
accompanied by Martha Puebla's signature, was a written statement that read, that is the guy that shot my friend's boyfriend.
So essentially, this LAPD detective outed a 16-year-old girl as a gang snitch to a suspected murderer. Oh my God. What an idiot. Whatever. I mean, I understand why he would do it to try and let the guy know that he had him dead to right, but just do it in court. Do it in a way that protects this person who never, by the way, little spoiler, never consented to being involved in any capacity. Oh, she didn't? No. No.
We're going to hear about it in two seconds. Meanwhile, Peps and Mario Catalan were placed into the same holding cell, which unbeknownst to them had been equipped with concealed microphones.
During their confinement in the shared cell, Mario divulged to Peps that the 9mm gun was still in the Mustang. This revelation then prompted Peps to utilize the jail's payphone to place a call to a fellow Vineland Boys member named Javier Covarrubias, who was also known as Cokester. In my head, I'm trying to think about these names. I feel like Cokester is Coke and Peps is Pepsi. Obviously. Oh, is it obvious? Yes.
I thought I had a stroke of genius when I cracked that. I mean, my 11-year-old dog could have. Fuck off. Even he knows what Coke and Pepsi is. Yeah, Peps is bothering me, but I'm keeping it inside. Okay. It's a dumb name. I don't like it. Just real quick. Why is his name Peps again? Is it short for something or is his name actually Peps? No, no, it's short. It's just his like moniker. His name is Jose Ledesma.
He must love Pepsi. Maybe. During Pepsi's call to Cokester, he said the following. Heard you got Coke Zero out. We're doing Pepsi Black.
You hear about Dr. Pepper? Oh, man, we're still going. I mean, fucking Coakster calls peps? I know. You expect me not to get hung up on that? Pope said to Coakster, do you know the slut that lives there by my house? Her name starts with an M. I need her to disappear. She is dropping dimes. No good. No bueno.
But in spite of Pep's placing a hit on Martha, six months elapsed and nothing happened. Life went on. The wheels of justice continued to turn on Christian Vargas' investigation. And nothing in terms of Martha's demise had occurred. Do you know why? Or are we allowed to speculate? You can speculate. Well, I know that there's like a snitch thing out there, a rule. But good gang members, honorable gang members...
They know that it doesn't apply to civilians or people not in the gang. No, I'm sorry. That's not the reason. Okay. But it was a good thought. Yeah. But also you have to understand in this context, she wouldn't have been a civilian. She would have been a witness. Well, no, I mean, so like the thing is like if you're in a gang and you live the gang life and you live violent and rob and hurt people, whatever, and you snitch on one of your, your friends,
You're a snitch. I see. A normal person who's not involved in that life, the same rules don't apply. I got it. Okay. That's for the honorable gang members. I sure wish that that was the case here, but it is not. Okay. On May 1st, 2002, Los Angeles County Prosecutor Beth Silverman called Martha Puebla as a witness against Pep's at his pretrial hearing. Okay. So now this is the pretrial hearing for the case against Pep's and Mario for the crime,
of killing Christian Vargas. During this pretrial hearing, Attorney Silverman directed a barrage of questions towards Martha. She probed whether Martha had witnessed anyone that night, if she knew the identity of Christian Vargas' killer, or if she could identify the culprits in the courtroom right then and there. Martha's response remained steadfast and unwavering, no.
She firmly declined to implicate Peps or Mario and went as far as to indicate that she had not seen anyone on the night of Christian's murder. Notably, both Peps and Mario were present in the courtroom during her questioning, a situation that must have been intimidating and terrifying for the 16-year-old girl, but she held firm that she did not see anything.
Additionally, in the courtroom seated in the docks was Mario's brother Juan Catalan, who was there to show support. It's crucial to remember this key detail. The pre-trial hearing represented the very first and singular instance when Juan Catalan and Martha Puebla encountered each other. They
They never met before, during, or after that hearing. They were just in each other's general vicinity. Yet their destinies would soon become tragically intertwined. Because of a fucking butterfly, right? Because 11 days after the pretrial hearing, on May 12, 2003, at 10.32 p.m., a black Chevy Malibu passed by Martha's house multiple times,
very slowly as she hung outside with some friends while taking a call on her cell phone. The car then stopped in front of Martha's house long enough for Martha to have said to the people inside the car, I'm Martha, you know me.
In response, one of the men got out of the car, pulled a gun from his sweatshirt pocket, and said, no, you don't. Then he shot 16-year-old Martha in the head at close range in front of an entire group of her friends, killing her. Oh my God. The bullet burned Martha's skin as it entered her skull beneath her left eye.
At 10.42, Martha's mother found her dead on the pavement outside their home without one other person in sight. Police eventually swarmed the area, roping it off with yellow tape. Yellow plastic letters punctuated the street to mark various pieces of evidence as cameras flashed and reporters and pedestrians alike took aim.
in the scene of Martha Puebla lying sprawled on her back in the street with her legs splayed, eyes still open, and blood soaking her white sweater.
One of the pieces of evidence discovered on the street near Martha's body was a cell phone belonging to one of Martha's friends and neighbors, a boy named Juan Ibanez, who fled the scene after hearing gunshots. And this cell phone provided a vital lead as law enforcement was able to track him down for questioning relating to what he saw that night. I'm going to refer to him as Ibanez since his name is Juan. Yeah. And it gets a little confusing with all the various ones in this case.
Upon Ibanez's arrival at the LAPD precinct, detectives Rodriguez and Pinner almost immediately presented him with a six-pack of mugshots featuring potential suspects. However, Ibanez was unable to conclusively identify the assailant, so he was able to
So the LAPD decided to collaborate with a composite sketch artist to aid him in providing a visual description. And we've talked about composite sketches before, haven't we, Tank? We have. And one of us, I can't, I don't really know which one of us, but one of us dropped the ball on
on carrying through with hiring a composite sketch artist to work with us and to show our listeners how accurate it could be. I wonder who could be. Forget which one didn't stick to his word. Oh, it was a guy. It was. And he's pretty big. He's a nice guy, but his follow through. He may be still holding that ball. Maybe. Maybe he didn't drop it.
Maybe the person he reached out to told him no. That did not happen. Yeah. They said absolutely not. You're such a liar. I know your face so well by now. I'll show you the text. Show it to me. You fucking liar. You can't even 100 smile. It's just the picture of the leprechaun.
She said, do you really want to hire me? This is my most famous work. Okay. Well, we've talked about composite sketches before, specifically in the dismemberment in the desert episode about the incredible Mary Vincent. It works if you've got a veiny bulbous nose. It works sometimes, but most of the time not. Studies indicate that composite sketches often fall short of success with estimated effectiveness rates spanning the spectrum of 8% to 20%.
which means in essence, approximately 80% of the time, composite sketches fail to yield significant results. And 20 is on the high end. That's the very high end, according to studies. If law enforcement chooses to pursue the avenue of a composite sketch, it's generally advisable to enlist the skills of a qualified forensic artist who possesses specialized knowledge in facial anatomy, proportion, and crucially, the psychological nuances of workmanship
in terms of interviewing them to obtain the physical features needed to make the composite. Yeah, because listen, if you witness a murder like that, first of all, the kid who ran away, I know, I just know it because people are people. There's someone out there going, why did he run away? Well, there was gunshots.
And he's a human being and our instinct for self-preservation is number one priority. And not everyone's going to be a hero. As a matter of fact, 8 to 20% of people are going to be hero. And it's usually eight. Wow. Did you just steal the statistics I read? No, that's the actual number. Oh, but yeah, the number of people out there who I see talk on social media about, Oh, if I was there, I would have done this. Right.
You wouldn't have done shit. No, I think it's time just in the world that we stop putting blanket expectations on people's reactions in general. In individual situations. Absolutely. It's like when people judge suspects based on their reaction in an interrogation room, that flips me out.
You cannot possibly expect there to be a uniform way for somebody to react on the worst day of their life. Yeah. Somebody they know was killed and they're being questioned or they're extreme duress. Some people might cry. Some people might punch a wall. Some people might be frozen. Some people might laugh. We've talked about this before as the reaction to stress. You cannot have a singular expectation for human reaction. Well, everyone thinks everyone is like them.
So they go, well, that's not what I would do there. But yes, it might be.
it might be the way you would act. Right. Because you don't know because it's a very unique situation that, God forbid, you never want to find yourself in. Right. So stop judging everybody. Yeah, man. In this case, the case we're talking about today, a forensic artist was not used to create the composite sketch of the man who shot and killed Martha Puebla. Rather, a police sketch artist was used. And while this distinction doesn't inherently imply a lack of quality, it's a noteworthy point to acknowledge.
The final composite sketch depicted a Hispanic male aged between 19 and 25 with a height ranging from 5'9 to 5'11 and a stocky build. Interestingly, prior to presenting the composite sketch to anyone in terms of releasing it to the public, an individual named Francisco Saldivar, who admitted being affiliated with the Vineland Boys, came forward to the police voluntarily claiming to have information about Martha Puebla's assailant.
This randomly appearing man showed up on his bike, identified the murderer as being Juan Catalan. Furthermore, he provided law enforcement with additional details stating that Juan had a girlfriend named Alma, drove a white Ford F-150 pickup truck, had a brother named Mario, and had recently returned evading authorities in Mexico, meaning Mario. So he's backing up that he knows this guy Juan,
and that he knows him to be the assailant. Now, the composite sketch did bear a striking resemblance to Juan Catalan. Wait, it was the other Juan? Juan Ibanez provided the composite sketch, and it bore a striking resemblance to Juan Catalan. Oh, I'm sorry. What were you just saying about Mario? When this...
random guy showed up to the police precinct saying, I know who killed Juan Ibanez. Went to the police station. No, no. I said his name, Francisco Saldivar. Oh, I love that. It was a random man who said that he was part of the Vineland Boys. He like volunteered that piece of information. Oh, really? Yeah. And he's like, hey, listen, this is who I am. He showed up on his bike
I have information about the person who killed Martha. I know that it was Juan Catalan. And I have details about Juan to back up the fact that I know who Juan is and that I know he did this. He's got a girlfriend named Alma. He drives this car. He's a brother named Mario who just went to Mexico and is now back. And law enforcement ate it up.
So couple this, you know, with the fact that the composite sketch did resemble Juan Catalan, coupled with the fact that Juan's brother was recently on trial for murder. Yeah. It was not entirely unreasonable for the police to regard Juan as a person of interest at this point.
Naturally, the LAPD brought Juan down to the North Hollywood station for questioning, even though detectives Pinner and Rodriguez didn't really have any substantial questions to pose to Juan, nor did they have any intentions of conducting a thorough investigation. Pinner and Rodriguez had already decided that Juan Catalan was Martha Puebla's murderer, and they were unwilling to entertain any alternative scenario or suspect unless
even though Juan adamantly and consistently proclaimed his complete innocence. That is bad police work. It is. It is. And again, it pains me to say it, but we got to call it like it is and we got to do some impartial journalism here. Why does it pain you to say it? Because I back up police work and I know it's difficult and I know that tactics are used and I know I'm not generalizing, obviously, like these detectives don't represent all police and the police officers that I support
don't represent other police officers that do shit work. Like, you know, another PSA treating any group occupation age geographic location as a monolith. It's fucking stupid. Nice word. Monolith. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one. They weren't all poured into a concrete form. Right. Yeah. They're not like Barbie. Hey Barbie. Hey Barbie. Weird Barbie. Hey Barbie. Yeah. Police Barbie. Right. No, they're human beings. Yes. And, and of
of course, if there's bad police work being done, I don't think, I mean, to even say, I think it's okay to say that is like, yeah, obviously. Right. Now this case is interesting for me personally, because I feel like what we typically do is, or I guess it's a mixed bag, but I feel like many of our cases highlight some really tremendous police work, but then shine a light on some really shitty attorney work. Yeah. This case does the opposite. So this case, the police, not great, but we're going to hear about how fucking good
the legal work was in this case. I'm not even saying the police weren't doing their best. Oh, we've had this conversation before. Everyone, everyone at any given point in their life is doing the best with the tools they have. You are assuming that... If one of their tools says it's a good idea to hit my kid, that's a tool that they have. I don't think there's always a thought process tank. But that's part of their tool bag. Mm.
No. Not being able to think. They don't have the tool to stop, pause, reflect, and change course. Do you think that people who snap, like murderers who snap, that act of homicide is because they were using the best tool they had available? I mean, you're talking about someone having a psychotic break. I feel like that falls out of the parameters of intentional actions. Yeah. I don't know, man. Respect your thought process. Don't agree with it. But I want to get back to the case.
I want to talk about doing your best. Can I do my best with this case? Sure, I'm doing my best to stop you. I think you're winning. So during the interview with Juan Catalan and the detectives, the following exchange occurred. Juan Catalan said, you were going to take away my life for this fucking bullshit? Detective Pinter replied, the bullshit is this. You killed somebody. Juan,
Wait a minute. Those are very strong words right there. I did not kill nobody. I will never kill nobody. I'd never do anything to hurt anybody. Pinner.
convince us otherwise. See, he's using that double negative. That's tricky. I mean... Never kill nobody. It's like, well, what are you trying to say there, Juan? He landed on some proper grammar, though. Yes, he did. So his point was taken. He did. Now, unfortunately, Juan had difficulty recalling his whereabouts on May 12th, which was the day of Martha's murder. To jog his memory and instill some fear into Juan, the detectives showed him a six-pack photo lineup, which included his own picture. So...
Sound familiar? Yeah. And similarly to how they handled this stage of the interrogation with Pep's when he was being interrogated for Christian Vargas' murder, Juan's photograph was circled. There was a handwritten note beneath it that said, this is the guy I saw shoot my neighbor. And he was informed that an eyewitness came forward to name him as the perpetrator. But here's an astonishing curveball for you.
The six-pack mugshot photo compilation presented to Juan Catalan with his own photo circled and captioned by eyewitness Juan Ibanez was a fabrication.
Detective Rodriguez personally circled Juan Catalan's photo and added the caption himself. Yeah, the guy's a dick. And guess what else? Detective Rodriguez pulled the same stunt six months earlier with Peps while investigating him for Christian Vargas' murder. Meaning, Martha Puebla never killed
positively identified peps in a photo six pack. She never circled his image. She never initialed it. She never provided a caption accusing him of murder. All of that was orchestrated by the LAPD. And because of that ruse, as they later call it in such a cavalier fashion, not the LAPD, these two, these two detectives, thank you. 16 year old Martha Puebla lost her life.
And now, Juan Catalan was next in line.
In the United States, law enforcement has considerable latitude when interrogating suspects. Courts at both the federal and state levels affirm the authority of officers to deceive individuals they have in custody by claiming to possess DNA evidence, video footage, or eyewitness accounts during questioning when in fact they have nothing. And California is a state that allows deception to be used as part of investigative tactics. Pop quiz.
How many states in the United States allow police deception? A, 39. B, 47. C, 50. I was hoping you were going down in numbers. Afraid not. 30 fucking nine is the bare minimum possible in this pop quiz. Yes. That allow police to lie to suspects to try and get them to... To use deception. It's literally called deception, this tactic.
50. Yeah. Fuck that, dude. Yeah, you're right. 50 states. Which states don't? Alaska and New Jersey? Where are you getting that from? Because in New Jersey, you're not allowed to pump your own gas. And? They just don't trust those people. It's currently allowed in every state, but that could be- Oh my God, there's 50 states in the United States of America. Oh my God, I thought you were fucking with me. Oh my God, Tank.
Your boy's not smart. I always confuse the amount of states with the number of weeks in a year. You are so wonderfully human. You are. You really are. I actually love that this just happened. If you would have given me a pop quiz that said there are 48, 50, or 52 states in the United States, I'd be sweating. Aw. It's okay.
So it's currently allowed in every state, but that could be starting to change. Illinois, Oregon, and Utah have passed legislation to protect juveniles from the use of police deception during interrogations, but the use of these tactics against adults is still currently legal at the time of this recording in all 50 states.
What about the other two states? While deception is a legal tactic for law enforcement to use, there are boundaries to what they can do when they're using it and a certain degree of practical judgment that's required. For instance, fabricating a story to a dangerous gang member suggesting that a 16-year-old girl named Martha Puebla had witnessed a murder identified the individual in a lineup and was willing to testify against him when none of that was true is...
demonstrates a lack of practical judgment. Yeah. In such cases, standard procedures such as providing advance notice to the potential danger to Martha's life and offering her protection were not followed here. Can I ask you a question? Sure. So Martha Puebla was killed, but it was six months after the guy found out that she was allegedly the witness. Yes. Why did it take six months?
There's no answer. And what I find personally strange in terms of timing is that they didn't get to her before the pretrial hearing, which is when you would think they would want to take her out. You know what I mean? She still showed up at that pretrial hearing. Now she covered up, like she didn't tell the truth. She didn't, she didn't snitch.
but still, they didn't know what she was going to say when she got up there. So if they were going to kill her, why not do it before the pretrial hearing? And was she killed by a gang member or was it a random thing? It was not a random person. It was the Vineland boys. The Vineland boys? Vineland. The mandolin men.
Law enforcement is prohibited from using falsehoods to elicit false confessions, coerce individuals into waiving their constitutional rights, or place lives at risk in terms of deception. Isn't that what you just said is okay? No, no. They're not allowed to do it to get false confessions. Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. So there's parameters within... Yes. Got it. Okay. So deception can be a useful tactic. And...
as somebody who I believe in law and order, and I generally try to like be on the side of protecting the public and we have to do what we have to do to get, you know, certain dangerous people out of the way. And if that means deception in the interrogation room, um,
But it has to be done in a way that does not throw innocent people under the bus. Yeah. So at this point in the case, Juan was in a tight spot. He lacked an alibi for the night of the murder. He matched the description in the composite sketch. And he had a potential motive for wanting Martha dead, which was to protect his brother. Juan pleaded with the detectives. During his interrogation, he said...
Please, I'm begging you. I had nothing to do with this. I swear to God, I have two daughters that I love so much, man. I did not do this. But Penner and Rodriguez continued to mock him while making up evidence about there being several witnesses accusing him of the murder. Ironically, Juan Catalan was actually the only one in that interrogation room who truly had nothing to do with Martha Puebla's murder. Whoa. Yeah.
That's powerful. Get the fuck out of here. That was good. I couldn't wait to land that one. Oh, man, these cops suck ass. At this point, Juan was being held at Wayside Maximum Security Prison, and it was here that Juan remembered that his cousin worked as a file clerk for a top-notch criminal defense lawyer named Todd Melnick. Melnick used to work as an assistant district attorney and personally witnessed some of the tactics employed by prosecutors to secure convictions.
This experience led him to opt for a career as a defense attorney instead. And thankfully, Todd Melnick agreed to take on Juan's case. And he immediately got to work.
He requested the chronological log that the detectives kept while working the case, and he took to the streets, actively seeking out Martha's friends who had been with her the night of the death. And over the course of his excellent work, Melnick made a significant finding. He learned that his client, Juan Catalan, had attended the Dodgers-Braves game on the night of Martha's murder.
And Juan's six-year-old daughter, cousin Miguel, and friend Ruben all attended the game with him and corroborated his whereabouts. So Melnick approached Sam Fernandez, senior vice president and general counselor for the Dodgers,
and seeked permission to review all of the footage from that game, as well as Dodger Stadium's Dodger Vision camera, which scans the stands to spotlight fans on that big screen in the center. Melnick meticulously examined three hours worth of VHS tapes in slow-mo and eventually located one that had covered the section where Juan had been sitting. Incredibly, he saw Juan.
But unfortunately, the images were of extremely poor quality and failed to establish his presence conclusively at the game. Wouldn't he have a ticket stub? Obviously, he threw it out. Right. And none of that proves that he was actually there. He could have bought the tickets and then not gone or whatever.
And this was absolutely crushing for Juan. The fact that he was shown to be in the footage, but that it couldn't be used. And he really was not holding up well in jail at this point. That footage seems like his best and only shot to definitively prove that he'd been at the game that night. Without solid proof like that, this case would go to trial and Juan would be facing the death penalty. Oh my God. But then...
Something absolutely insane happened after Melnick continued to make inquiries about the night in question. A butterfly told him what happened? No. Pop quiz. All right. What happened next?
A, the LA Dodgers center fielder Gary Sheffield recalled seeing the sign that Juan's daughter held up and was willing to go on record saying that he saw Juan in the stands. Okay. B, Melnick was invited by Larry David to review footage of an unreleased episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm that was filmed at Dodger Stadium on the night in question. What?
C. The Mexican mafia came forward to share information from a tracking device they'd placed on a Chevy Malibu belonging to a rival gang, the Vineland Boys. Holy shit. Um, C. No. Fuck. Damn. So it's A? No. Fuck.
Larry David saved his life. Can you believe this? If that's not an episode of Kirby Enthusiasm, I don't know what is. Larry David said the same thing. Really? Yes. Listen to this. When I went through this case with Dave, he had goosebumps. I could see them on his arm when I was going through this next bit. Really?
Juan recalled seeing cameras in his section at Dodger Stadium, and he recalls being annoyed by all of the people that were standing in front of him and in the aisle beside him. After looking into this, the fact that he recalled seeing a camera crew, Melnick learned that
Comedy legend and creator of Seinfeld, Larry David, had been filming an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm at Dodger Stadium on the night of Martha's murder. And I've seen this episode. I saw it when it first came out. It's called The Carpool Lane. It's episode four of season seven. The storyline features Larry David picking up a sex worker on the side of the highway so that he could use the carpool lane to get to Dodger Stadium in time for the game. Very funny.
And Dave and I actually quote this episode a lot. It's so vulgar, but I'll just tell our little psychos. So he picks up a sex worker and she thinks he's soliciting her for sex, right? But he's not. He just needs a second body so he can go in the carpooling.
So, he's going, yeah, he's shooting the shit with her like Larry David does. He's like, how much do you charge for like your services? And she gives him a number and he's like, God, that seems really high. And she goes, well, I got a red snapper that'll talk to you. So, Dave and I quote that all the time like little maniacs because it was so funny. And he goes, yeah, you know what that red snapper's saying? I'm charging way too much.
It was really funny. My delivery is not as good, but... No, it's good. It's great. It was funny. I can imagine it being funny. It's just not funny now. I'm just kidding. I'm joking. Oh, it hurts, doesn't it? I'm going to stay in my lane. I'm just staying in the carpool lane.
Now, when Melnick called the HBO producer, Tim Gibbons, he was initially told that he wouldn't release pre-production footage of that episode and that they'd have to wait for the show to air the following February. Dude, it's a fucking court case. But it was only May and Melnick needed the footage stat because as he said, his client would be facing the death penalty. Yeah. So Larry David himself invited Melnick to come to the studio to watch the footage.
And sure enough, as clear as day and in full view of the camera, you see Juan Catalan and his daughter walk right past Larry David in the aisle. Wow. I mean, I choked up. Like my eyes were tearing when I saw the footage. There he was, unmistakably, on camera. How did he not remember that?
I don't know that he knew who Larry David was. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even going to a game, unless he goes to a lot of games. Juan? Yeah. Oh, avid Dodgers fan. Oh, okay. So he's like, I could have been at a game. I could have not been at it. Right. Who knows? At that moment, man, was cinematic. Yeah. Pun intended. There were 27,458 people that attended the Dodgers game that night. What were the chances that Larry David would be filming in Juan Catalan's exact section and
in his exact aisle, capturing his exact face perfectly in the final footage. He was walking back from the concession stand with his daughter. After seeing Juan in the footage, Melnick apparently jumped out of his seat in the production studio and went bananas. Larry David purportedly said at the time, I'll be damned. Maybe I should make an episode about this. I think is what you just said. Yeah, well, I'm a genius. Great comedy minds. Yeah, so...
But just as I giveth, I must now taketh, Tink. No! Because unfortunately, this footage was not enough to clear Juan's name. Because the time stamp on the tape indicated that the footage was filmed between 8.55 p.m. and 9.15 p.m. The murder occurred at 10.32 p.m., meaning...
technically he would have possibly been able to leave Dodger Stadium, drive to Sun Valley, and carry out the crime.
Drop his family off. I mean, it's ludicrous. No traffic in LA. Like, you know what I mean? Melnick knew that he would need more to present to judge Leslie Dunn if he was going to convince her to dismiss the charges. Put this on ice. We're going to come back to it in two minutes. I promise. But for now, just know that Melnick was continuing to bust his ass to find additional evidence to support Juan's whereabouts on the night of the murder.
Melnick was firing on all cylinders by this point and putting his law degree and sense of duty towards his client to good use. Excellent lawyering. Remember how detectives Pinner and Rodriguez asserted that Martha's friend and neighbor, Juan Ibanez, identified Juan Catalan from a six-pack lineup? Yeah. Well, Melnick found out that there wasn't any documented evidence to substantiate this alleged identification.
Consequently, Judge Dunn ordered the prosecution to redo the lineup and this time to videotape the entire process. And sure enough, Juan Ibanez struggled a great deal to make a confident selection and hesitated. Eventually, he pointed to Juan Catalan. My gut feeling, no evidence to back this up, is that he was probably pushed in that direction. Yeah, probably. So now, on December 17, 2002, the
the preliminary hearing was scheduled to take place for Juan Catalan. Now, just a little FYI, a preliminary hearing is designed for the court to have an opportunity to examine the prosecution's evidence in order to determine whether or not the case should even proceed to trial. In California, there only needs to exist a strong suspicion of the defendant's guilt in order to proceed to trial. The threshold is very low. Add to that the fact that the prosecutor in this case, Beth Silverman,
was known as the sniper for picking off defendants with the death penalty. She never lost one single murder case. That's scary. So if this case was going to go to trial, Juan Catalan's fate was as good as sealed. Yeah. So the next day, on December 18th, Juan Ibanez was called as the first witness for the prosecution at the pre-trial hearing. Melnick, prepared for this moment, was ready to begin questioning Ibanez.
But before doing so, Melnick covered his client's face with his coat before asking Juan Ibanez to describe the physical appearance of the shooter he purported to have seen on that dark, terrifying night. Juan Ibanez described the shooter as dark-skinned, stocky, and slightly taller than himself, and he was only 5'5". Then...
Melnick dramatically removed the coat to reveal Juan Catalan, who was light-skinned, slender, and around 6'1". I mean. Voila. Exactly. Yeah.
Melnick then questioned Detective Pinner. When questioned about Juan's motive for allegedly killing Martha, Pinner testified that it was because Martha testified against his brother Mario in a pre-trial hearing. But that wasn't even true, because Martha hadn't testified against Mario or anyone else. She stated she hadn't seen the shooter. Therefore, she posed no threat to Juan or Mario.
She never even once mentioned his name during the investigation behind closed doors. So claiming that Juan's motive to kill Martha had been to protect Mario does not hold water.
The hearing continued again on January 9th, which is now 2003, which is when Melnick presented the video evidence from Curb Your Enthusiasm. The people were probably like, what the fuck are you doing? But again, this wasn't enough given the timestamp on the video footage. Melnick needed to prove that Juan was at Dodger Stadium past 10 p.m. or really past 10.32 or at 10.32. Yeah. And that's exactly what he did.
We can now thaw out what I asked you to put on ice a few moments ago. Nice. Which was the additional piece of evidence that Melnick needed to find in order to confirm that Juan had been at Dodger Stadium on the night of the murder at the exact time in question. Now, Melnick, having been a commentator during the OJ Simpson highway chase, remembered how cell phone pings were used to verify a suspect's location.
So Melnick sifted through phone records from the night in question and saw that Alma, his girlfriend, called him. And sure enough, at 10.11 p.m., Juan's phone pinged off a cell tower within one mile of Dodger Stadium, confirming what we already knew, which is that he was not the perpetrator. He was not Martha Puebla's murderer. And this was a triumph.
At the end of the closing arguments, Judge Dunn did not hesitate to issue her ruling. After Juan spent five months in jail, the judge stated, I do not have any suspicion that the defendant committed this crime and this case is dismissed. Nice. And Juan Catalan was finally and officially a free man. It must have felt so good. So there's video footage of him leaving the courthouse, a free man, and
And it gives you the feels. Yeah. It's wild. Of course, he's hugging his attorney, Melnick. Melnick's hugging him. He's like, I owe you. I owe you everything. Oh, yeah. His daughters are there. Juan Catalan's crying. He's like sobbing into his little girl. It's really something. Now, Martha's killers, her real killers, went unpunished for years until an FBI takedown of the Vineland Boys uncovered the four men responsible. And ultimately, they were all incarcerated, forcibly,
for life without the possibility of parole. Oh, it was another gang member? It was four violent boys. Wow, do you want to know what I thought? Yeah. I thought you said before that Pinner and Rodriguez were the killers. No, but they...
I implied that. Yeah. Because of their tactics, they led to her death. Oh, okay. So I'm not dumb. No. Oh, I was so pumped to drop that like heavy hitting statement, but maybe I was unclear. Maybe I'm unclear. Maybe. Look at us being chronops about this. It's our fault. Yeah.
Continue. After all of this, to compound the heartbreak and frustration, the truth about Martha Puebla's killers had been recorded in that jail cell call involving peps when he ordered Cokester to kill her. But that critical tape languished on Detective Pinner's desk, gathering dust as neither he nor Rodriguez had ever taken the initiative to listen to it. Oh my God. I mean, everywhere you look, it's just...
horrendous police work. Yeah. Just to wrap this up, in April 2010, Martha Puebla's parents filed a civil lawsuit in federal court against the city of Los Angeles, Chief William Bratton and Detective Spinner and Rodriguez. Their lawsuit included various allegations such as violations of Martha's constitutional rights, as well as claims of wrongful death and negligence. The
The LAPD testified that they had indeed warned Martha and her family of the dangers involved in testifying against gang members. P.S. She never fucking testified against them and that they were offered witness protection, but that they declined. And of course, the Pueblas vehemently denied that this ever happened. Following a trial, the jury found, this is crazy, by a preponderance of evidence that the detectives had violated the due process rights of Martha and or her parents and
that they had acted negligently, that their negligence was a substantial contributing factor in Martha's death, and that they had acted with reckless disregard for the rights of Martha and or her parents. However, the jury also found that Martha and or her parents had also acted negligently and that the negligence was a substantial factor in causing Martha's death. So... How?
Listen to this. Deputy City Attorney Elizabeth Fitzgerald argued that Martha's testimony at the preliminary hearing about the gang affiliation of convicted killer Jose Ledesma Pep's led to the retaliation against her, not the detective's ruse, which makes no sense because, again, she protected Pep's.
Fitzgerald said that Martha and her parents were offered witness relocation and they refused. And that's what led to her death. Wow. The jury apportioned 20% of the responsibility for Martha's death to the detectives with the remaining 80% to Martha and her family. They awarded the Pueblas economic damages for constitutional violations in the amount of pop quiz, a negative $2,500 and,
B, $1. Negative $2,500, $1. Or? $250. Oh, all insulting. Who knows? All.
One dollar. One fucking dollar. It's insane. Disgusting. Additionally, Juan filed a civil rights lawsuit against the city of Los Angeles in 2007 and was awarded $320,000 for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment he experienced as a result of the false murder accusation as well as defamation of character. Poor kid. Yeah. According to the Innocence Project...
approximately 1% of the United States prison population, which is about 20,000 people, are falsely convicted. What percentage? 1%.
Can I ask a question? Yeah. I mean, isn't that pretty good? I mean, it's terrible for 1%. 20,000 falsely accused people? Innocent people. You said 1%, right? Of the U.S. prison population. I mean, 1% is fucking pretty low. Listen, it's for the individuals, yes. So let me tell you a quick story, okay? So let's show you that I'm not a monster. I don't think you're a monster.
When I used to work at Prime in Huntington, we would do five, 600 covers over the course of a day. Covers is like however many people ate in a restaurant. And at the end of the night, the managers would go, guys, great night. We only had 7% or 6% waste, meaning somebody got the wrong food or it was overcooked or whatever. And I thought like, that's too many. Like what about like, so yeah, it might be 6%. So that's,
30 people that had their night ruined essentially, but those people were with people. So maybe it's more like 120. So for these individuals, obviously it's horrific.
But as a whole, well, first of all, the U.S. prison population isn't too big anyway. Yeah. It's so many people. Yeah, it is. It's a lot. Yeah, it's fucking, it's terrible. I mean, would it be nice if it could be 100%? Obviously. Of course. I'm just playing. Devil's advocate? Not even devil's advocate. Just like realistic. You're having a conversation. Yeah. I'm digging my own grave. I'm going to dig you out. I just want to quickly mention what the Innocence Project is. Okay.
In case people don't know what it is, it's a nonprofit legal organization that works to investigate cases of wrongful conviction while advocating for criminal justice reform to prevent future wrongful convictions.
Their mission is to ensure that the justice system functions accurately and fairly by helping individuals regain their freedom, who are innocent, and by addressing systemic issues within the criminal justice system. In essence, this outstanding organization is dedicated to exonerating innocent individuals who, unlike Juan Catalan, experienced a less favorable outcome in their butterfly effect. Nice.
That was a nice bow you just put on the case. Yeah, and that's the case.
That was a very interesting case. I like the fact that, listen, I needed a break after the treehouse situation. Yeah, I was wondering how you would react to this case because it's a different, as I said, a different flavor. Yeah, I don't, listen, I'm not one of those people who needs people to be being cut open and, you know, fucking frozen and thawed and fucked and have their head cut off. I'm not saying it doesn't interest me. It kind of doesn't. But it has to be in support of understanding
a more interesting psychological profile. That's where I'm at. But I'll take any version of that. Or circumstantial. Like this one, circumstantially, was... I mean, it really should be a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode. Yeah. Instead, it's a psychopedia episode. There's a documentary about this case, by the way. 2017 documentary called Long Shot, and Larry David's in it. It's on Netflix. You can watch it. Yeah. Yeah.
Larry David being involved is the best part. I mean, I couldn't wait to drop that. It's just this case is just, first of all, it plays into one of my greatest fears, which is being falsely accused of a crime I did not commit and then being imprisoned. I actually have a recurring dream in which I am in a cage in Egypt, ancient Egypt. I have this dream maybe once every three months, my whole life. I think it was a past life.
Anyway. Yeah, you're probably a witch in Salem. Oh, yeah, you're probably right about that. But in any event, that fear of being wrongfully accused and incarcerated and no one believing me and being locked in a cage for the rest of my life is terrifying. That's what this was. But then he got victory and relief. Thank God. And he didn't get money, but I mean. Well, he did. He got $320,000. But Martha Puebla's family, not only did they not get money, they didn't get money.
And their daughter died. And their daughter died tragically. Because of bad police work. But the fact that Martha Pueblo, an innocent 16-year-old girl who didn't even snitch, was thrown under the bus by a faulty use of legal police tactics. Yeah. Is...
crushing yeah yeah it sucks so many layers to this case very sad for martha yeah but i'm very happy for one yeah he's actually as of 2021 he was getting his college degree with his daughters it's a really we'll end on this really funny story so he tells this story about how he was sitting in an english class and he raised his hand and he's like um actually something's incorrect in this textbook and the professor was like huh okay what's incorrect in this textbook and
And he goes, I wasn't at the Dodgers game with my girlfriend. I was there with my daughter. He was in the textbook. Wow. His case. I love that story for some reason. That must have been a great moment for his classmates. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for putting this case together. My pleasure. You did a great job. You did a great job sitting through it. And I'm going to go watch the butterfly effect, I think. Oh, not the long shot.
Netflix documentary. You might just go watch Kirby Enthusiasm. Maybe. We'll watch it all. It's like a marathon. All right. Well, if you made it this far, listen, I forgot to say this in the beginning. It's us against the machines. Okay.
So make sure you review and rate and subscribe. I think subscribing is very big for the platforms that we're on. So just subscribe and then, you know, whatever. Just fucking deal with it. Well, what's cool about that is because we put out bonus episodes, you get a push notification when we do that. Yeah, you don't want to miss a bonus episode. Right. So make sure you subscribe on Spotify and Apple. You got to rage against that machine, guys. Yeah, it's us against AI. So it's us, Psychopedia versus the algorithm.
And we need your help to beat it. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. Yeah. Or you could just listen to us and we're totally fine with that. That's fine too. Either way, we'll see you next week. Bye.
