EP22: Pakistan's Jeffrey Dahmer 01:09:18

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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia podcast. I am your co-host, Tank Sinatra, here with my feisty co-host... Investigator Slater. You're the feisty one today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told you, I'm coming off of a Jay-Z high and I cannot be stopped. Oh, you can't be stopped on a good day. Listen, Investigator Slater, for those of you listening, she's just experiencing the phenomenon for the first time of hearing her own voice. And I find that a little hard to believe.

I asked Tank if in reality I sound the same way as I do on these recordings, to which he replied, how do you want me to answer that? Did I say that? Yeah. That's how you heard it? That's how I heard it. That's how you said it. So that's how I heard it. That's what I'm saying. You are the feisty one. Because I said...

How would you like me to answer that? I'm a perfect little angel. Okay. Yeah. I mean, listen, the difference between you talking on the microphone and you talking in real life is that in real life, you're not eating the person's head that you're talking to. So get the microphone out of your mouth.

I asked you politely to remind me not to swallow the microphone. And you, again, in a very feisty manner said, I can't tell you that one more time. That was like a fun way of me saying that. That is not how it came across. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm telling you, you got the feist and you're projecting your feist onto me. All right. And I'm just bouncing it off because I'm cool as hell.

I got swag. I like nothing. Like, shut up. Anyway. Okay. So we're here. Shout out to all the listeners, the little psychos. Psychos are the public podcast people and the semen demons are the Patreons. That's the delineation we've made here. Correct? Yes. And we love both categories. Of course. The little psychos gobble it up, take it all in.

But if you find yourself wanting to DM us and saying, put out more episodes, I've binged all of them and I want more, there is something now for you to do. You can go over to patreon.com slash psychopediapod and get your little crack fix of true crime. Yeah.

Injected. We're doing it IV over on Patreon. We are. We're not smoking. We're not snorting. We're not doing nothing except straight into the vein. This is coming from a sober guy. Yeah. Unhinged. Psychopedia Unhinged. And as was noted by one of the listeners, I'm not... You're going off the rails. The governor's off. I mean, I'm a wreck. I'm having fun. You're having fun. The feist is welcome there because it's like, let's bring some energy to the Psychopedia Unhinged.

And you have brought a case today that I asked for, but know nothing about. And it was sent to me by somebody. I don't remember who, I'm sorry. It was a DM. It was on tanks. Good news that somebody sent this to me. This is anything but good news. Well,

It's not good news, but it is, I guess, it's satisfying for people who... No, it's not. I don't know anything about it. Here's the thing. I was just going to say, I think you think you know what happened here and you don't. Oh. So I'm watching you struggle. I should have thrown you a lifeline a lot sooner. No, I love drowning. But this case does not go where you think it goes. If you knew where this case went, I don't think you would...

You may have suggested it because it is very interesting. Yeah. But I think you were looking forward to an ending that did not happen. Oh. Yeah. So I guess... Sorry, boo. Without further... We will... That was so good. Oh my God, that was awesome. And I'll tell you what, I didn't even mean to do it. It just came to me in the moment because I'm channeled in to Hover right now. Without further...

Just one quick story, okay? Because the Book of Hove, it's not an advertisement for them, but it might as well be, is an exhibition that was put together at the Brooklyn Public Library for the life and times of Jay-Z and his achievements and goes from everything from him selling drugs and regretting it, but being a product of his environment to trying to uplift the community and whatever.

And they have Baseline Studios there, a little recreation of it. And in there, Fade to Black was playing. And I was explaining, first of all, everyone there was amazing. All the- They're people. Yes. I mean, I've never been surrounded by more people. It's like CrimeCon for me. Yeah. Great point. So I was waiting online, walking through, looking at pictures, and I just turned to this guy. I'm like-

This is fucking crazy. He's like, I know. And we talked for like 15 minutes. There's a video of fade to black playing, which is Jay-Z's documentary of making the black album, which culminated in his last concert, quote unquote at MSG. It was supposed to be his retirement concert. I went to that concert and he had Bruce buffer announce him. And it was absolutely fucking electric in there. The anticipation, the excitement, the energy, the,

And all of a sudden you hear Bruce Buffer like, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to blah, blah, blah. His boxing announcement voice. And then while he's talking, you hear Jay-Z go, and the place went fucking nuts. And you melted. I had a full body spiritual. Orgasm. Big O. And it wasn't physical at all. It was my soul. That's the best sign. Yes, exactly. So thank you, Jay-Z.

And then let's, you know, thank you, Investigator Slater, for putting this case together in the middle of the Gilgo Beach, you know. Double header. Triple header. Yeah, triple header. Two-parter. Babe, wake up. There's a fucking psychopedia two-parter just dropped. I love when people use memes in real life. So let's get to the case. Let's hear about how this case is nothing like what I thought it was. All right, you ready? I am.

In Pakistan's second largest and most populated city, Lahore, in the year 1999... What? Lahore. All right. Get it out. There existed a small house... Le slut. ...at 16B Ravi Road that contained three small rooms and a yard. The house was located on a dead-end street and resembled thousands of similar homes in Lahore with its bare brick walls and wooden doors.

Ew. Such a bad start.

The third room contained several large bags stuffed with miscellaneous items, including children's clothing, 58 pairs of small-sized shoes, lots of paper, and human hair. Oh.

This room also contained a bed and a side table on which three diaries were abandoned, filled with handwritten notes. Clearly, something was off about this house. For instance, there were solitary photographs of children hanging up in each room, with each photo accompanied by a distinct number written on the back, as well as a corresponding note card to indicate the subject's name, age, physical description, and a random date. This guy wasn't starting a baseball team, was he? He was not. Okay. Oh,

Oh, and these photographs that were hanging on the walls, they were surrounded by blood. The bags of clothing and shoes mentioned earlier were all in remarkably small sizes and arranged on the floor beside a massive and foreboding iron chain.

Furthermore, the two large blue drums filled with hydrochloric acid contained dissolved human organs floating inside of them. And at the heart of this macabre scene, reminiscent of a gruesome horror movie set, there hung a plaque affixed to one of the blood-stained walls, bearing the following chilling inscription...

The bodies in the house have deliberately not been disposed of so that authorities will find them. That's what the plaque said. Yeah. Plaque? Yes. Like engraved? I guess. Put a lot of effort into it.

Today, we are delving into the despicable life and actions of an exceptionally prolific and horrific serial killer whose shocking acts of violence against children have surprisingly received little attention in mainstream media. Yeah. With the body count reaching the precise number of 100, the serial killer is by far the most depraved human being I have ever seen.

come across. Really? Yes. Wait, hold on a second. It's not brushed by that. Yeah, I am not exaggerating.

So this guy that we're about to talk about, a Pakistani guy, I'm assuming. Yep. Who killed a hundred children, which is so many children. Yes, it is. It's just, I mean, it's, I don't even really want to think about it too much because. When my father and I talk about history and we talk about battles and things because we're losers and that's what we talk about. Hey dad, you want to talk about Gettysburg tonight? Yeah.

Fucking loser. When he's telling me like the amount of people that were killed or the amount of people that were drafted or whatever, he's like, I want you to picture that number lined up to get perspective of how many people you're talking about. Think of a hundred children lined up. That's a big number.

Are they all under a certain age? We're going to get into that, okay? This is the wildly tragic and traumatizing case of Pakistani serial killer Javed Iqbal. As always, let's start at the beginning. Born in 1956, Javed Iqbal Mughal was the sixth child among eight siblings. Say that one more time. Why? Why? Why couldn't you just let me have the win? Because I wanted to hear it again. Javed...

I hate you. You know why?

Because I knew that that was a moment in time and there's no way you'd be able to recreate it. You were so in the zone. It's like when you throw a ball at the basketball and it gets stuck in between the rim and the backboard and you're like, I couldn't do that again. Javed Iqbal Mughal, motherfucker. Okay. He was the sixth child among eight siblings born to a wealthy family residing in Lahore, Pakistan, which is the country's second largest city. Javed's father, Muhammad Ali. What?

That's his name. The boxer? No, not the boxer, but of the same name. He was an Indian refugee who achieved remarkable success as a businessman in Pakistan, attaining high status and a respected position within the community. He consistently and generously provided for all of his children, allowing Javed and his siblings to grow up in luxury, surrounded by comfort and security. Oh, that's nice. And eight kids? Yep. That's not easy. No, and he was a refugee from India, so he did not come from, well,

wealth or power, you know, but he attained it. Worked hard. For Javed, this situation instilled a sense of spoiled overconfidence that no matter how many times he fucked up, and regardless of how bad it was, his affluent father would always come to his rescue and quite literally bail him out whenever needed. Javed's personality was in complete contrast to the well-liked, charismatic, and successful Muhammad Ali.

Since childhood, Javed was stubborn, argumentative, demanding, and cruel. Spoiled. And spoiled. Well, that's what I'm saying. Well, spoiled doesn't necessarily mean cruel. Very true. But it's not in the same realm. But it's like, I do what I want when I want. And I want to feel what it feels like to be mean. So I'm going to do it. Yeah, you're right.

In fact, according to one of Javed's three brothers, he had a penchant for violence and inflicting harm on small animals while displaying an unnerving fascination with death. Red flag. And we know from covering Patrick Mackay, Tank,

that torturing animals in childhood is one of the three factors of the McDonald triad, also known as the homicidal triad. The Mickey D's triad. The Mickey D's. Do you remember what the other two behaviors are in the trifecta that are considered predictive of or associated with future violent tendencies? Oh, yeah, but no. Okay. Shall I tell you? Please. Obsessive fire starting. Yes. And persistent bedwetting. I did know that. Mm-hmm. Sure. If you gave me a couple hours, I would have figured it out. Okay. So, Javid...

Javed exhibited the behavior of torturing small animals, which is one of the three factors. And when you see that, or according to the McDonald triad, and there's a lot of people who like do not think that there's any weight to the McDonald triad. But if you do, and you exhibit any one of these three behaviors past the age five, you are at risk for having future violent behaviors.

I feel like of the three, bedwetting, obsessive fire starting, and torturing small animals. There's like a hierarchy there. There's one that's carrying a lot of weight. Agreed. Torturing small animals is certainly worse than bedwetting. Agreed.

In 1978, Javed went on to study in the Shadbag District of Lahore at Government Islamia College while living between two separate villas purchased for him by his dad. He ended up getting married and divorced two times and had a child with each woman, first a daughter and then a son.

As previously mentioned, Javed's parents consistently intervened to resolve less than ideal situations that Javed would find himself in, hoping that it would help him to lead a quote, normal life despite his challenging personality and unconventional sexual inclinations that they had come to discover. And that's very tough. Absolutely right. Like to be a parent and have a kid who's like a delinquent or a fucking criminal or a psycho, it's like,

I can't judge any parent who helps their kid out because you want to help your kid. You don't think that what you're doing is going to make them turn into a serial killer. Of course. And a lot of times when you... I think quite the contrary. They think that they're helping him to straighten out. Well, a lot of times when you help your kids, it does help them. Yes. So this is not like... We're not saying don't help your kids because otherwise they're going to wind up becoming a serial killer. Like, help your kids. But I guess you got to have a real special relationship with that kid to know like...

I'm actually hurting you by helping you. There's definitely more factors here, and we'll go on to discuss what those factors are. But I think it's okay to help your children. I think it's always okay to help your children for the most part. But I think when you recognize signs as concerning as the signs they recognize in Javed, just bailing him out of situations isn't enough. They should have got him...

psychological support. They should have, you know what I mean? There should have been more in place to help him out than just, oh, you're arrested. Here's money to bail you out. Yeah. You know, oh, you're in this sticky situation. I'll just pull you out and...

Instead of teaching him how or trying to help him not get into the sticky situation. Right. And maybe they did, but he was not your typical bright person getting into a little bit of trouble here and there. He's on psychopedia. He's on psychopedia. He was destined for the opposite of greatness. So in Pakistan, approximately 50% of marriages are arranged by the parents of the bride and groom as marriage is viewed as a union between families. But just

But Javed's parents permitted Javed to choose his own bride, believing that it might steer him towards a life that he would find suitable enough to maintain and go along with. Scary enough, it actually came out later that one of his wives happened to be the elder sister of one of his future victims. Wow.

Just a weird connection there. Yeah. I guess you live in a town. There's going to be some crossover. I guess, but Lahore is pretty big. 50% is a lot, by the way. It sure is. I remember in high school, this girl had to leave. And this is obviously fucked up, but she had to leave in 10th grade.

Because she was going to get married. Yeah. And she was like, you know, this is what it is. Right. It's a cultural choice. It is tough to swallow just from where we sit, right? To think that you don't have a choice in who you marry. Well, she was also 15. Ooh. That was in 1995. And things have improved a lot since then. I hope so. I'm joking. Things are fucking, people are still crazy. Did she come back to school? No. Oh, so she left. She left, yeah. And I'm not talking about arranged marriages. I'm just talking about people that are

that have that sickness where they're attracted to young people. Children. Yeah. Children. In his mid-20s, Javed ventured into multiple business endeavors funded by Daddy, one of which was a steelcasting business that operated out of one of his villas. Steelcasting is like piping. Under the facade of running a legitimate factory from his charming villa, Javed concealed his sinister and malicious motives.

which involved exploiting and manipulating young, vulnerable street boys by luring them to work and live with him. Javed enticed impoverished, vulnerable, and at-risk boys who resorted to begging around city monuments and shrines

with the promise of employment and housing ostensibly offering them a chance at a better life. What a fucking asshole. For one thing, just sorry to cut you off, I've never been to Pakistan or India or any of the places where they have street children, which is actually a real thing. Yeah, it is. To take advantage of those kids is fucking diabolical. You just wait to hear how diabolical it gets. Better get less diabolical because I'm sick right now.

And the opportunity for work and shelter was too tempting for most of these boys to resist. Of course, yeah. Javed rationalized his act of having underage quote-unquote employees living with him by asserting that it streamlined the operation of his factory, ensuring readily available assistance at all times. Child labor? Yeah, well, we're going to go on to hear how prevalent child labor is in Pakistan.

Children trapped in domestic servitude, such as those being brought into Javed's home, are especially susceptible to violence as these private residences operate beyond the oversight of labor inspectors. Yeah. And child labor and exploitation is...

Oh, and this is like one step removed from even the watchful eye of the people who are maybe trying to keep a handle? It's under the radar. It's in his house. It's in his home. So despite Pakistan ratifying the Convention on the Rights of the Child nearly 30 years ago, there is still no public coordinated child protection case management and referral system that aligns with international standards.

Consequently, children in Pakistan are subjected to the worst forms of child labor, including forced domestic work and forced labor in brick manufacturing and agriculture. About 3.3 million Pakistani children are trapped in child labor, depriving them of their childhood, health, and education, and condemning them to a life of inescapable poverty and ongoing abuse. It's heart-wrenching.

Obviously, they're not getting educated because they're working. Right. They're not learning how to enlarge themselves. Not at all. Horrible. A contributing factor to child labor, exploitation, trafficking, and abuse in Pakistan is the fact that only 34% of children under five are registered at birth nationally.

Wait, what? Meaning the majority of children when they're born aren't even being registered. Only 34% of children are registered? Yes, under the age five are registered nationally. Like they get a birth certificate, you mean? Yes. Oh my God. So they are completely off the radar. Many times poor rural families will even sell their children into domestic servitude or other types of work.

or pay agents to arrange for such work, believing, incorrectly, that their children will be working under decent conditions and helping to provide for the family. But most of the time, that's not the case. That's such a shitty position to be in. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Initially, the boys that Javed took under his predatory wing were just thrilled to have a roof over their heads and protection from rough and tough street life.

Yeah. They were provided fresh clothing, new shoes, and consistent meals. At this point, the city of Lahore had thousands of vulnerable young children openly begging in the streets. So for an individual, you know, of stature like Javed and Javed's family, you know, indirectly. His dad was Muhammad Ali, a famous boxer. For somebody like Javed to provide shelter, food, and employment was more than just an enticing gig for these children. It meant survival. Yeah. Or so they thought.

Once off the street and in his home, Javed would employ psychologically manipulative tactics to gain control over the children and to deceive them into thinking that he cared about them and that he had their best interests at heart. He tricked the kids into thinking he would expose them to the finer things in life that extended beyond consistent access to food and shelter. Javed would often be seen driving groups of at least six little boys around the city in his lavish car, treating them to a meal and a drink.

treating them as his own and referring to them as his boys. He was methodical, intentional, and cunning, orchestrating a sense of belonging for these abandoned and often orphaned children who so desperately craved a sense of family acceptance and stability. These are my least favorite kinds of cases. I know. That's why I said if you knew where this case went, you likely wouldn't have...

requested it. Just because to provide someone who's desperate with hope for a better life and then use that against them is even...

I don't even know. It's just another layer of cruelty. Cruelty. Yes. It's cruel. It's like absolutely the definition of, yes, violence is one thing, temper, insanity. But knowing that, knowing that he like not showed these boys off, but like was out in public, like, look what a good guy I am and had this plan.

I know in abusive relationships, there's something similar to what I just described and it's referred to as love bombing. I'm sure you know what that is. Oh, yeah. I did it every relationship. Okay, but then you didn't go to end up abusing anyone. I've heard that term love bombing and I absolutely know what it means. Yeah. And it's embarrassing because it's like, is that what I was doing? I just thought I was...

like being obsessed with... I think intention is everything. I think if your intentions were what they were, then you're off the hook, my friend. That's true. Your intention is to manipulate and to coercively control your partner. Oh, so I never love bombed. I mean, my understanding is love bombing is there's a negative connotation and abusive component to it. So I'm going to say you didn't love bomb. I didn't. I just dropped bombs of love. Big difference.

So in addition to openly parading around the city with groups of young boys, Javed also employed covert methods to target children and cultivate inappropriate relationships with them. Pop quiz. Oh, my first one. Thank God. What did Javed do to further prey upon and access young children? A, acquire children pen pals through kid magazines. Oh my God. B, set up the district's first video arcade to attract young kids. What?

Wow. C, establish an air-conditioned school called Sunnyside School. D, all of the above. All of the above. Yes. I knew it. I finally gave you one. Well, last time you said it's never all of the above and I knew that you were trying to trick me. So... God, I got to do better. Set up an air-conditioned school, set up an arcade...

And what was the first one? Pen pals. This guy put a lot of effort into this. Developed relationships with children. So what he would do is he would convince young boys to be his pen pal and to send him photographs of themselves in exchange for gifts and money. Wow. And this guy was rich, obviously? Yes. At this point, yes. Yeah. He'd also attract young boys to the arcade that he opened up. Again, it was the first arcade in the district.

by giving out free tokens or not charging the children anything at all to come play games. Then, listen to what he'd do. He'd throw a 100 rupee note on the floor to see which child would pick it up. Then, he'd accuse that child of stealing, march him into a private room under the guise of conducting a search, and

Oh, what a fucking piece of shit. Oh.

What a fucking garbage human. So this case really, like, I see it's affecting you, understandably. It definitely hit me very hard doing the work behind this case because of the work that I do with, you know, survivors of childhood sexual abuse. So the majority of the people that I work with in my day job are adults now who were sexually abused in childhood.

And many of the survivors I work with came from troubled backgrounds, broken families, financial instability, and they were targeted by their abusers for these reasons, similar to what I'm describing here. So many of them were groomed or they were given special privileges and gifts that they otherwise would never have access to. And at that point as a kid, you have to make a judgment call, which no human being should have to make, first of all, but a kid especially not, is the money worth...

or the security or whatever the money brings, the food, the survival worth this experience that I have to endure. Here's how deep the psychological element goes is

They weren't even aware that what was happening to them was not okay. Because they were so young. They were so young and the abuser had groomed them so well that they figured, here's this great guy, right? He takes me to baseball games. He buys me clean clothes. He makes sure my belly's full. What he's doing to me right now, and I'm talking about abuse, can't be bad. He's a good guy. Yeah. It's such a psychological mindfuck.

that does not go away easily, if at all. But to try and get some, not redeeming, but to try and ease my personal pain about it, maybe the kid's not knowing that it was bad. Is there God's way or whatever way of protecting the child from... Because as an adult hearing that, I want to go save the kid. Yeah. But the kid, five years old, doesn't have any parents, doesn't have anybody watching out for them.

You can make sense of anything when you're a kid. So you just go, this must be normal. In my experience with the survivors I work with, they may not have been able to articulate what was wrong, but they felt something was wrong. And then that feeling manifested into very troubling behaviors later on. Addiction, low self-esteem, any type of behavior where they were sort of like deflecting what they were experiencing internally. So I'm about to say the most important thing I might ever say on this podcast.

In therapy, I learned, I went to this guy for 10 years. This is the most important thing he said to me. Because I do think sometimes that are not in my best interest. They're mild infractions, but like, you know, it'll make me feel good. But I come from a world of like almost killing myself in the pursuit of trying to make myself feel good. So anyway, he goes, you know,

A lot of people don't realize it. I'm imagining the people that you're talking about have it. They have a wild self-loathing streak. And I was like, yeah, but I don't hate myself. I don't like, I'm not my biggest fan, but like, I don't hate myself. He's like, that's not even what I'm talking about. So he goes, when self-centeredness and trauma intersect, self-loathing imprints on the individual in that moment.

Wow. Yeah. That's heavy. So kids are the epitome of self-centered and not in a bad way. They literally, like infants literally think if they can't see you, you don't exist. Right. So extrapolate that out one, two, three, four, five years, six years. By the time you're a teen, you start to realize like, okay, maybe the world doesn't revolve around me. But as a child, you are the epitome of self-centeredness and that level of trauma is going to imprint self-loathing on your psyche that is borderline inescapable. And then everything you do...

that's against your best interest. You say, I don't want to do drugs, but like your subconscious is saying, do drugs. That's your subconscious trying to get your actions to mirror your internal condition. Wow. And does your therapist, I'm sure he gave you like the coping skills to work through that. Yeah, but it's constant, incessant, relentless work. Constant awareness. Yeah. Because every time you have a feeling like,

It's not the negative self-talk. That's a different thing. I'm talking about doing something that you know is against your best interest and you're supposed to meet yourself with self-care at that point. But reading a book is not as satisfying as eating four slices of pizza. Right. So it's like you have to make a decision.

Every time. Right. You have to make the right decision every time. It's very difficult to recover. That's exhausting. Oh, yeah. What was I watching? Reading. Maybe you posted this. The fatigue of... Decision fatigue, yeah. Yes, decision fatigue. Making good decisions all day is exhausting. Yeah, and then by the time you get to the 10 o'clock, you're like... By the time the pizza arrives for your kids, you're eating half of it. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That was really insightful.

So Javed chose his victims wisely as they were all either orphaned or living on the streets with inadequate protection by responsible adults. And this is why, heartbreakingly, this demographic of children is often referred to as invisible children. So I watched some video footage about the poor begging children in Pakistan and I nearly lost my mind. Oh, it's bad. I mean, it is...

horrendous and so heartbreaking and

And so for me, anyway, I was consumed by guilt. Yeah. Like, how am I sitting here not doing everything I can possibly do to help every single one of those children? And then one level further, ever complaining about anything. Exactly. Yeah. And then thinking about like my kids and am I teaching them the right stuff in life? Like, ugh. My friend Jay went to India. He said it changed his life. Yeah. You're there in real life and you have a four-year-old kid begging you for money for food. No.

I'm telling you, watching these videos, I was dying. Yeah, it's tough. So the fact that this guy took advantage of them, so many negative points against him.

The United Nations gives three categories to invisible children. And I'm doing air quotes that people can't see. Invisible children is not my term. Yeah. So the United Nations, as I said, gives three categories. One, children at risk. So this demographic are poor working children who live home but earn money on the streets for their families. Okay. The second category is called children on the street. Okay.

And these children spend a lot of their time on the street, but have some family support and live at home on a regular basis. And then there's children of the street. Oh my God. And these children live and work on the street and either have very little family contact or support or no family at all. Yeah. With respect to Pakistan, in just the city of Lahore, there is an estimated 3,500 to 5,000 children living on the streets. Full time? Yes. Wow.

Again, in the words of my dad, picture what that would look like in a line. Yeah, no. Ironically, though, it was not Javed's underage posse that placed him in the crosshairs of law enforcement. Rather, it was his local reputation for being gay. And since Pakistan is an Islamic state largely informed by Islamic laws and teachings, his sexual preference for men was a big no-no according to Pakistan's legal framework.

That changes a lot. Not for me, but being gay in Pakistan. Right. It just, it reframes the entire scene that I had in my head of him driving around with a bunch of little boys.

So totally, and we're going to get into how there was overlap. Same-sex sexual contact is actually prohibited under the Pakistan Penal Code. It's illegal? It's illegal. And it criminalizes sodomy, which carries a potential penalty ranging from two years imprisonment to a life sentence, as well as fines. But Javed's penchant for boys didn't go unnoticed either. So he had two sort of

Marks against him, if you will, in Pakistan. One for being gay and one for having definitely what appeared to onlookers as being an inappropriate relationship with young boys. I'm sorry to interrupt. One mark makes the other mark possible because if you're just a know-nothing type of person walking around the city and minding your business and you see a guy driving around with a bunch of kids, you might possibly think to yourself, okay,

wow, this guy's like a hero. He's like taking these kids off the street, giving them food or whatever. But in Pakistan, the way they view gay people, if they knew who he was and knew that he was gay, not one person was looking at him like that. But here's what's interesting. He was married twice. Yeah.

And one time for 10 years, and he had two children. Yeah. You know what I mean? But that was, again, sort of a situation that his parents set up for him. Life is complicated. Yeah. Throughout the 1980s, whenever a child's parent would come around,

or one of Javed's neighbors would take note of his creepiness towards these children, they would report his behavior to the police. As always, Javed's father would grease a few palms to save the family name, and Javed would dodge legal ramifications on the strength of his dad's good standing and fat wallet.

But then, in 1990, Muhammad Ali passed away, taking with him the safety net and influence that Javed had been so accustomed to relying upon throughout his entire life. Well, I'm sorry, not good he's dead, but good that this guy's got to answer some questions. Yeah, be held accountable for a hot second. Despite inheriting 3 million rupees, Javed was not entirely immune from the consequences of the law as he had been when his father was still alive. How much is that, like $80? Yeah.

Don't know, but that was potentially accurate. I don't know.

Which is why, when he was arrested in 1992 for sexually violating two young boys, Javed had the shit beaten out of him during police interrogations and was threatened by cops who promised to kill him and to cover up his death if he ever did anything like that again. Mind you that he still had not been charged with like pedophilia or child endangerment, but rather with sodomy and incredibly shitheadly.

shamefully, his actions on a larger scale were not officially investigated any further. And this was a catastrophic fail on the part of Pakistani law enforcement because they did nothing to protect the actual children being harmed or to prevent recidivism for when Javed walked out of their custody. Yeah. All they did was pass down which of the following sentences? Oh. Pop quiz. A, stoning in the town square. Ooh.

B, the walk of shame. Which is? He had to walk naked through the district. Okay. You just made that up right now. C, public thrashing. I did not. All those are pretty bad. Stoning, walk of shame, or public thrashing. Oh, I don't hope any. I don't know. Fucking stoning. No. Public thrashing. Yes. Okay. The walk of shame is bad for everybody. Yes, it is.

I was hoping it wasn't that. I didn't make it up, but it also did not come from anything real. To my knowledge, it came from Game of Thrones. Cersei's Walk of Shame. Oh, shame. Yeah. Shame, shame. So three million rupees, by the way, is $36,000. Okay. Thank you for that. Speaking of public thrashing. In 1990, which is worth 86,000 today. Sorry, keep going. Public thrashing. Fun fact, the city of Baltimore-

As in Maryland, as in America. What? Used flogging, thrashing as a punishment until 1938. Oh, that's a while ago. Not really. Like my grandparents were alive. You know what I mean? So this punishment was used for only one crime. Wife beating. Yep.

So following the sodomy charge and public thrashing, Javed was violently attacked when he got out by two teenage boys who had been living and working for him. Wow. So according to Javed, these teenage boys attempted to sexually assault a very young boy named Arbab, who also worked and lived with Javed. And when Javed went to intervene like the hero that he thought he was, the teenage boys attacked him and killed the child. But here's what really happened.

Javed used this little boy, Arbab, to lure in another boy off the street under the pretense that he would be paid to give Javed a massage. But when this new boy got back to Javed's home, Javed raped him and then fell asleep. And the boy, traumatized, found a gun in the closet and...

and smashed the butt of the weapon against Javed's head while he slept. Good for him. How old was this kid? Young. I mean, these are all young, young. This one was a young teenage boy, this child. Oh, okay. I'm just saying, I'm trying to picture like a five-year-old kid grabbing a gun and hitting him against the head. This kid was a kid, but he had some faculties to him. Yeah. After the assault, Javed was unrecognizable and remained unconscious for 22 days.

He suffered massive swelling in his brain and was given a 5% to 10% chance of survival. According to some sources, this traumatic brain injury served as the catalyst for the gruesome killing spree that would soon follow. Because while he survived the attack, Javed's head injuries left him with unspecified compromised neurological capabilities or incapabilities. Yeah.

It also left him at a financial deficit for the first time in his life as he required multiple surgeries and follow-up care that cost a pretty penny or pretty rupee. He lost the arcade as well as an aquarium that he established before the attack and he lost all of his fancy cars as well as his home. Everything was confiscated to help pay for medical bills. So suddenly for the first time in his life, Javed was homeless and in dire financial straits. Yeah. Boo-hoo. Yeah. Don't give a fuck. Fuck him.

But the biggest impact of this ordeal, according to Javed, was what? Pop quiz. PQ. A, the stress of witnessing his injuries proved fatal for his mother, leaving to her untimely death. B, due to his now misshapen and deformed head, children became fearful of being around him. B. C, he had to move out of the expensive city of Lahore, cutting off his access to an endless supply of impoverished young boys. B.

Nope. Fucking jumped the gun on that. Yeah, you did. He had to move out of Lahore. Nope. His mom died? Yep.

Oh, that's sad. So according to Javed, his mother died after succumbing to the overwhelming stress of witnessing her son's deteriorating health. Javed shared an exceptionally close bond with his mother, and her passing ignited a ferocious storm of rage and anger within him, leading him to unleash his fury in the most abhorrent manner possible. Sounds like Kanye West. Yes. Yes.

Seriously. I know. For those of you who don't know, Kanye West was a genius musical talent. And when his mom died, who he was very close with, Donda, not excusing his remarks or his mentality or anything he's done, but it had a severe impact on his mental health. Very, very close with her. She was like the reason why he was what he was. She just gassed him up constantly. Great mom. And when she died, he kind of lost it. Oh, yeah.

I still hate him. Yeah. Sorry. It's okay. You're totally right to do that. This was a pivotal moment, though, for Javed.

So he needed to find housing, obviously, when he left the hospital and his mother died. So he started renting a small house in a slum in Lahore. And it was at that point that Javed made the chilling decision to seek vengeance upon 100 young runaway boys as retribution for the actions of their fellow peers who caused the devastations to his life. Fuck that. In a span of mere months,

Javed Iqbal perpetrated unspeakable acts against 100 innocent children ranging in age 6 to 16 years old, cementing his position as one of the most horrific and prolific serial killers in the world. Ever. Ever. Yeah, I mean, 100 people, 100 kids.

Is a lot. What distinguishes Javed Iqbal from other serial killers is not only the fact that he carried out his crimes in Pakistan, which is a nation yielding an extremely small number of serial killers typically, but also the unusually high and very specific number of victims he claimed. Well, how many people did Jeffrey Dahmer kill? 17. Ted Bundy. We're going to go on to talk a little bit about this. Because I just, 100 people.

is an unfathomable amount of lives to take. In a couple of months, you said? Yes. A few months? Yes, within a year, but it was less than a year. This guy literally just went on a killing spree and nobody was the wiser. So he did not kill one more than 100. He did not kill one less than 100. He killed precisely 100 children. It was actually between July and November. Right.

And here's how this giant piece of human shit did it. First, issuing a trigger warning. I know we've already touched upon some very, very horrendous topics, but please, everyone, tank, listen with caution. Maybe I'll leave the room. Because this case is next level horrendous and it will haunt you for the rest of your life. So that's my disclaimer. Okay. All right.

First, Javed forced former street kids already under his thumb to hit the streets to recruit en masse other young and vulnerable little boys. These teenage victimized accomplices then lured other hungry street kids back to Javed's home at 16 Ravi Road by offering them papad, which is a thin fried dough. Looks like naan bread. Hungry, desperate, and under the impression that these other boys were helping them out,

The children followed their peers back to Javed's home under the false illusion that the adult owner, Javed, was someone they could trust. Upon arriving at the house, Javed served the new boys a drink laced with some kind of sedative that made them disoriented and compliant. Then he photographed each little boy individually, assigning them a number on the back of the photograph to indicate their place in his macabre collection.

Once the photographs were taken, Javed would then rape the children before strangling them with a thick iron chain. Remember how earlier in the episode I mentioned that the photographs of children hanging on the bloodstained walls in that home, which I hope you now realize was Javed's home, were accompanied by note cards that contained their name, age, physical description, and what I refer to as a random date? Well, that random date turned out to be the death date of the child. Mm-hmm.

After raping and strangling the children, Javed would then dismember their bodies and fully immerse their remains in a solution consisting of hydrochloric and sulfuric acid. Over time, the corrosive properties of the solution would dissolve the remains completely, obliterating any traces of the young lives that once existed in their unjust and heartless world.

Then Javed would dispose of the residual sludge remaining in those large blue drums that I mentioned earlier, which now we realize what was happening inside of those. He would pour it down the drain until this prompted complaints from the neighbors due to the putrid smell that would emanate from within the pipes. In response to that, Javed shifted his method and started disposing of the children's remains, the dissolved remains, directly into the waters of the Ravi River. Oh my God.

Following the brutal murder of his 100th and final child victim in 1999, Javed composed a written confession providing explicit and disturbing details regarding his method of luring, quote, orphaned and runaway kids into his residence for the purpose of raping and strangling them to death. Wow. He then sent a copy of the letter directly to the police and

as well as to the chief news editor, whose name was Kawar Naeem Hashmi, at a Lahore newspaper. And this is what his confession said.

I have killed 100 beggar children and put their bodies in a container. I could have killed 500. This was not a problem. Money was not a problem. But the pledge I had taken was of 100 children and I never wanted to violate this. I have no regrets. I was so badly beaten that my head was crushed, my backbone broken, and I was left crippled. I hate this world. I

I was denied justice. My mother cried for me. I wanted 100 mothers to cry for their children. What a sick fuck. He then went on to indicate that he planned to drown himself in the Ravi River. Javed also indicated in this horrific note that he left three boys dissolving in the large blue drums of acid in his home to prove what he did. Okay. Sorry, it's really sad.

And of course, when authorities went to his home, they indeed discovered the acid vats with human organs inside, as well as everything else that I previously described at the top of the episode, from the photographs to the iron chain on the floor to bags of children's clothing and shoes. Oh my God.

Following receipt of this terrifying confession and subsequent suicide note, law enforcement dragged the river with nets, not once, but twice in an effort to locate Javed's body, but nothing was found. Police then launched the largest manhunt in Pakistani history,

during which they managed to immediately arrest Javed's four teenage accomplices, whom he named in one of the diaries that they found on the night table next to the bed in one of the rooms. By accomplices, you mean kids who got other kids to come to the house. They didn't help him kill them, right? They helped him to lure the children, but they presumably knew what was happening to those children when they brought them back. But they were victims as well, so it's a really tough...

pill to swallow to call them accomplices. I mean, they were, but they were victims as well. Yeah.

Within days, one of the, we're going to just refer to them as accomplices for the sake of ease for this case. One of the accomplices died in police custody with an autopsy revealing the use of police brutality or suggesting the use of police brutality. Of course, authorities denied any use of force and indicated that the boy jumped from a window while he was in custody, knowing that his fate was not good since he was caught.

Yeah, so much more likely. Yeah. Joking. When news of the manhunt for Javed and the killings of 100 children got out, it spread like wildfire across all of Pakistan. Some of the photographs discovered on the walls of Javed's house were published and people began to come forward to identify the children.

Distraught parents of missing children began to line up outside the police station while others searched for their missing children's clothing or shoes amongst the evidence collected from Javed's home. Just let it out. I can't. Just cry. If I start, I won't stop. Can you imagine? Can you imagine finding like your son's sneaker? No. Well, one thing that struck me as...

exceptionally sad is the fact that how many pairs of sneakers did you say he ate? 58. And he killed 100 kids, which means that they didn't have sneakers. 42 kids had no shoes to begin with. I didn't even go there. You're right. The raw animalistic screams of the mothers identifying their children's belongings inside the police station could be heard far and wide and citizens everywhere demanded justice. But Javed Iqbal was nowhere to be found.

Then, one month later, on December 30th, 1999, what happened? Pop quiz. A. A cavalry of street kids dragged Javed to the steps of the iconic Badshahi Mosque and hung him publicly. B. Javed turned himself in to the Daily Jang newspaper.

which is also the name of the newspaper where he sent the letter to. C, Javed was beaten to death by three Punjab police officers. B. Yes. I know. You do. I do. You actually know? Or do I have to tell? Did I like give it away? No, I know what happened. Oh, oh, okay. So yeah, if I knew that, I wouldn't have given you a pop quiz, you little cheater.

At 9.30 p.m., Javed walked into the office of the Daily Jang newspaper where he previously sent his confession and turned himself in. Javed brought with him a 32-page journal containing detailed accounts and photographs of the boys' murders. Within minutes, the building was surrounded by more than 100 soldiers deployed by military authorities to prevent an escape. As he was being arrested, Javed made the following statement.

I am Javed Iqbal, killer of 100 boys. I hate this world. I am not ashamed of my actions and I am ready to die. I have no regrets. I killed 100 children. Cool, bro. Yeah. Good for you. Piece of fucking shit.

During testimony, Javed indicated that he'd been fantasizing about murdering boys since childhood. However, a few days into his trial, Javed withdrew his confession and suddenly pleaded not guilty, stating that he had invented his story to highlight the problems of runaway children in Pakistan. Oh, what a guy. Give him a medal. Yeah. On March 15th of 2000, Javed Iqbal was found guilty.

Judge Allah Baksh, who presided over the case, sentenced 41-year-old Javed Iqbal to a death commensurate with the crimes he committed. Here we go. Let's hear it. The judge said the following while passing down his sentence.

Javed Iqbal, you have been found guilty of 100 murders. You shall be strangled to death 100 times in front of the parents whose children you killed. Your body shall be cut into 100 pieces and put in acid, the same way you killed the children.

The judge ordered that the execution be carried out at a public park in front of a national monument and said that the same chain he used to strangle the children would be used on him. Pakistan is wild. Well, many may question, as I did, how such a sentence was permissible in the year 2000. So I'm going to provide a little insight into Pakistan's legal framework and its approach to punishing criminal offenses because it is...

Wild. I mentioned this earlier. Pakistan is an Islamic state. So meaning as a nation, it follows largely Islamic laws and teachings. The Pakistan Penal Code contains 27 different offenses punishable by death under traditional Islamic law, which is known as Sharia, that are divided into three categories depending on the offense. Category one is called Tazir.

This refers to crimes that are not specifically defined in the Quran and are subject to discretionary punishment by a judge. Second category is called Hadud, which refers to crimes against God with punishments that are fixed in the Quran. And three, it's called Kisas, which refers to crimes against individuals or families whose punishment is retaliation in kind or an eye for an eye. It's literally an Arabic word that means revenge.

So Javed's sentence was therefore in accordance with the Sharia legal concept of kisas, the retaliative principle of an eye for an eye, which is as ancient as it gets. Yeah. He was ordered to be punished in a way that was equal in kind to the heinous offenses he committed. Three of Javed's teenage accomplices were also found guilty.

Remember, the other one died or was killed. The main accomplice, whose name was Sajid Ahmed, was only 17 years old at the time, and he was convicted of 98 counts of murder and issued a death sentence, as well as 616

86 years in prison, which I can't put the cart before the horse, better serve before, right? 15-year-old Mamad Nadeem was found guilty of 13 murders and sentenced to 182 years in prison, which was 14 years for each murder. And 13-year-old Mamad Sabir was

was handed a sentence of 63 years in prison. Wow. Now, following Javed's sentence... That might be the worst one. The 63 years in prison? Yeah. Because he'll be alive to come out and... Goes in at 13. If he survives, he comes out at 76. Yeah.

You know, there's obviously two ways to look at these accomplices. They're victims. They were groomed. They were, who knows what they were threatened with if they didn't comply with Javed's plan. But on the other hand, you know, they were complicit. These are very harsh sentences. I just, I have a lot of feels about it. Following Javed's sentence, his attorney was gearing up to file an appeal. And Pakistan's interior minister maintained that the sentence would be challenged as a violation of human rights.

But none of that would be necessary in the end. As on the morning of October 8th, 2001, Javed Iqbal and 17-year-old Sajid Ahmed, who was his quote-unquote main accomplice, were both found dead and hanging by their bedsheets in their prison cells at Kat Lakpat Prison. What a bunch of bitches. The bodies of the victims showed clear signs of strangulation, with blood evident around their necks and seeping from their mouths and nostrils.

Furthermore, Sajid's neck bore an additional injury while Javed had numerous head wounds resulting from blunt force trauma inflicted by some kind of weapon. In other words, Javad Iqbal was killed by the Punjab police, most likely, though of course they officially ruled it a suicide. He got abstained. He got abstained. Yeah. No one from Javed's family claimed his body.

They said, quote, we have nothing to do with him. He died for us on the day he confessed to killing 100 children. Sure. There was actually a film directed by a controversial filmmaker whose name is Abu Aliha. And the film is titled Javed Iqbal, The Untold Story of a Serial Killer. And it was set to be released in January of 2022. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

But the Punjab government and the Central Board of Film Censors banned the release of the film just two days before it was scheduled to be released. Many people petitioned the high court to release the film because they thought that it made an important statement about Pakistani society with respect to child abuse and the deep-seated prejudice that exists towards marginalized sex of the community, of society. Yeah. But the board felt that the movie glorified Javed, especially since his name was in the title.

Despite the challenges faced in its journey to the big screen, the film has already had a world premiere at a UK film festival and has been selected for the Berlin International Art Film Festival. They're also trying to redo the movie slightly and to change the name so that it can be released everywhere. I don't disagree with that, by the way. That they wouldn't release it? That it glorifies him.

I mean, I haven't seen it. No, I mean, just having his name in it, it makes him like an anti-hero. People desperate for attention. Not that he was doing this for attention. He was obviously very sick. But yeah, that kind of mentality where it's like we talk about all the horrific things people do rather than the good things. Like some people make fucking true crime podcasts, which is so strange. Oh, shit.

But to do it in a movie where it's like, how do you tell that story? It should be called the 100. Right. You know what I mean? Focus on the children and your message versus the asshole. Because the story is not, I mean, hopefully it's not about him. It's about the... It's about what he did. Yeah. Yeah. There's been all kinds of like movements just in news media in general here in America to stop using the names of like...

school shooters and mass spree killers, stop using their names because the people who are doing it for that spotlight, for that limelight, you're giving it to them. Oh, yeah. If you kind of just completely forget about them and you focus on the children or the people, the victims, whatever, I don't know, maybe it would have an impact. Or you just say,

hey, Newsflash, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, Twitter, Reddit, everywhere, there's a shooting in this area. Don't go near there for a while. Wait till you hear that it's clear and then we'll

We'll let you know and not make it a whole big, you know, sensational thing. But I don't blame anybody. I don't blame the media for doing it because people tune in. I don't blame people for tuning in because we're wired for survival. Well, that's what it is. It's survival. It's fascination. It's wanting to know what's going on. Yeah. Curiosity, nosiness. Right. You know, two sides of the same coin.

While the brutal, devastating, unforgivable murders of 100 young boys remains the biggest tragedy of this case, certainly, we cannot ignore the tragedy of how society and authorities in Pakistan never took any

any action against a sadistic child-killing predator or never helped the parents who came forward before Javed's confession to report that their children were missing. Yeah, for sure. Who knows how long he would have continued killing had he not kept to his sick personal goal of killing not one more than 100. Society protected a wealthy man by sacrificing the poor. Yeah. Javed Iqbal is one of the most

heinous human beings to have ever existed. He's been referred to, which we touched upon earlier, as the Jeffrey Dahmer of Pakistan. But to me, this is not an accurate comparison. Dahmer had 17 victims. He had 100. Dahmer killed over a span of 13 years. Javad Iqbal did it in less than a year. Different upbringings, whatever. And we're not going to get into it fully right now at all. But even in Dahmer's case, as despicable as he was, and he was,

He arguably is said to have shown remorse in the end. Yeah. Javad felt no remorse and he clearly indicated that. A true psychic. He said, right, I do not feel remorse. Yeah.

So I'm not really sure why that comparison is made. He's so much worse than Dahmer. I mean... It's not even close. So what I think was likely to have been the case with Javed is that he was a true form manipulative psychopath who was forced by his family, culture, religion, and government to repress his sexuality. Add to that a traumatic brain injury and it was a perfect cocktail for disaster. Now, I'm in no way of justifying or excusing what he did, but...

On the contrary, I'm suggesting that he was a bad, bad man who at the very least should have been under a more watchful eye in terms of law enforcement and should have been provided with mental health support and psychological intervention at any point. Yeah.

This case stands as a chilling reminder of the darkest corners of human depravity and underscores the crucial need for vigilance in safeguarding the vulnerable. Yeah. And that just didn't happen here. And 100 beautiful, innocent lives paid the price. Yeah. And that's the case. Wow.

Do we know the names of the people or no? Of the victims? Yeah, or they're just like, they weren't even registered. I have not come across names. I've come across a few names of that little boy, Arbab, who lived with him, but by and large, no. Yeah, it's a fucked up situation. Which just perpetuates that dehumanization of poor, vulnerable children.

Like we don't even know their names. Yeah, it's fucking terrible. A hundred of them.

And this, so school shootings, horrible mass shootings, horrible. There's one that sticks out in my mind in Sweden. Do you know about that one that happened? Uh, give me more. There was a, some kind of a camp or some kind of youth gathering on this Island. And the guy, he pulled up on the Island said that there was some kind of problem. He was a police officer, blah, blah, blah. And then just started fucking shooting everything.

Everybody. Wow. Like, can you imagine being at the beach with your kids for some school gathering or camp gathering or whatever? A guy in a copper uniform rolls up and says, hey, hey, just want to let you guys know there's something going on. I got to, you know, everyone, you know, just stay alert, pay attention, whatever. And then just pulls a gun out and starts shooting the kids and the parents. Didn't you reference a Jamie Foxx movie that had a similar premise?

Where? Oh, yeah. Kingdom. Kingdom. Yeah. So you create this sense of this is what happened in this case. This is why I hated it so much. Yeah. This guy created an illusion of safety and security and used that to be a- Predator in the worst way. A diabolical predator. Horrific person. Horrific. But he's dead. I'm not going to say I wish he was strangled 100 times because that also seems redundant. Like, you get strangled once, you die. That's it. No, it's just-

Furthering that eye for an eye. Yeah. And a lot of people support that. A lot of people, you know, people who support the death penalty in America, the number one reason people support the death penalty is because they believe in that eye for an eye sense of justice. Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm not saying he shouldn't have been killed, but I'm saying to hand down a sentence of being strangled a hundred times, it's like... Chopped in a hundred pieces and dissolved in acid. I like that better than being strangled a hundred times. Strangle him once, kill.

Kill him. Don't strangle him 99 times after that. That's weird. How do you even know when he's dead again? Jesus. And then chop him up into a hundred pieces and dissolve his body in acid like he did to the kids. Cause he's already dead at that point. It's more symbolic and like, but whatever. The fact that this happened so recently is also. So recently. Yeah. For me, I cannot believe how like unbelievable,

underspoken about this case is. Yeah. I mean, unless I'm missing a big fucking conversation going on about this case, and I don't think that I am. Well, it also happened in Pakistan, and it's not that Pakistan people are less important, but they're very far away. And we have plenty of American serial killers to focus on. We are the leading country. Are we? Yes. When it's in your backyard, would you rather have somebody...

You're going to have me pick my poison right now? Go ahead. Would you rather know that there's a guy with a gun in your backyard?

Or a guy with a bazooka in Kansas. Like, who the fuck cares about the bazooka? The guy in the backyard is obviously the real problem. The imminent threat. Exactly. Immediate. Yeah. That's an interesting perspective, definitely. Doesn't make any sense, but it's okay. Thanks for listening. I'm sorry you had to listen to it. Investigator Slater, as always, thank you for your diligent research. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for the suggestion, you freak. And your Pulitzer Prize winning, award winning writing on this and storytelling. Thank you.

And if this episode was not enough for you, go to patreon.com slash psychopedia pod and we have a psychopedia unhinged where we just go back over the cases and pull no punches. Say whatever we want. Whatever, whenever, however we want to say it. Exactly. It's a wild ride. It's a rant cast. So we'll see you next episode. Thank you, everyone. Bye.