A Conspicuous Consumption Conversation 43:40

Welcome everybody to the third attempt at welcoming you to the Jan Arden Podcast. Today we have been inundated with technical issues, which is not a big thing because Adam Karsh, our producer engineer, he's calm under pressure. He cried a couple of times, but we're back online.

But it is. We had very exciting intros. Caitlin was talking about some interludes, intimate interludes that she had on her holiday. But we have to ditch all that because it just didn't work out properly. Now you guys will never know. You'll never know. Caitlin Green is back. She's been in the Frontenac area.

The middle of the front and ax, which sounds like a great swear word. Ah, front and ax. I know it does. It's well, it's, it hearkens to a word that I won't even say in French because it is the naughtiest French word in the book, but it does end with the word knack. So there you go. Who doesn't like knacker or the knacks got hit, got nailed in the knacks or the front knacks. I'm going to start using that. Oh God, he hit me right in the front knack.

You know, it's funny, even if you don't know what it is, it's just a funny word. Well, your pictures looked amazing. It was beautiful. It's a great, it's a weird time, but it's a great time to explore your own province and your own country. And we have a bit of a, you know, we have a bit of a less than complex sometimes here in Canada. We're always so excited when someone gives us acknowledgement, you know, a big public figure. And I think that it means sometimes we haven't spent our

our money on exploring Canada, I also should add it's darn expensive to fly in this country because it's so effing big. So yeah, but now people kind of have to, and I think they're going, oh my gosh, like I've never been out East or I've never been to Banff and I finally gone. And it's so stunning. It's nicer than it's as nice as Switzerland. And you're like, yeah, it is. Canada's great.

I'm super proud that our TV show, The Jan Show on CTV. Coming back. Monday nights at 8 o'clock starting September 21st. I'm so proud that The Jan Show is shot entirely in Calgary. Calgary has played host to many shows over the years.

The Revenant was shot here. Horrific tale of revenge and winter. Heartland, Wynonna Earp is shot here, north of 60. There's been lots of, tons of movies. But Calgary has played everything other than Calgary. It's played Montana. It's played Alaska. It's played Los Angeles. Parts of Christmas Story was filmed on 9th Avenue Southeast in downtown Calgary.

So when I found that out a couple of years ago, my heart just grew exponentially for Calgary. That Christmas story, which I will be watching very soon because

Because that's what I do at Christmas time. We're like 100 and some odd days away from Christmas, you guys. I know you're one of these Christmas daters, Christmas countdowners. And it's funny, the former host on The Morning Show, Roger Ashby, would always measure things in their proximity to Christmas. It's just hilarious. I'm very excited about Christmas this year because I think we could all use some coziness around that time.

Well, you know, it's going to be unusual. It's going to be a bit challenging because people gather at the holidays. But you cannot tell me that people do not know

without question what the risks are of gathering large groups. I hope we take the knowledge and the information that we have been given this past six months about social distancing, masks, you know, getting together in large groups. We have to, I mean, this is the perfect opportunity to not be with your relatives this year.

It's true. If you've always wanted to, if you've always wanted to do Chinese food in a movie on Christmas, by God, this is the year to do it. This is the year. I'm sorry. There's COVID. I can't host you this year, but I am sending you a gift card. I love that you're whispering. Like this is like, if I whisper, then no one will know it's an excuse. Well, I mean, you can't tell me that you haven't thought about it already. If,

The in-laws, the outlaws. And I know a lot of people, Adam, you're probably one of those guys that does two Christmases or three Christmases every year because you've got in-laws and outlaws on each side of the family and different grandparents that the girls need to see. I mean, for people like Caitlin and I, because basically I'm an only child too, sort of. Well, I have two brothers, but still that doesn't count. Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say...

Well, actually, to be honest... I was waiting for this. Caitlin knows. I won't be celebrating Christmas, not because I don't enjoy the holidays or get into the spirit, but as a Jewish person, I will be celebrating Hanukkah. No, absolutely. So let me say the holidays. That's insensitive of me. No, no, no. But let's...

Let me say the holidays. - Can I tell you a funny story? - Yes. - So there was one time and it was, I think Hanukkah and Christmas occur at the same time. And we were having a Hanukkah party at my parents' house and my dad's birthday's in and around the same time. So we're having a birthday party for my dad and a Hanukkah party. And I'm like, "Mom, you should make a ham 'cause I love ham." And my mom's like, "Adam, I'm not gonna serve ham at our Hanukkah party."

Okay. So I show up to their house, and the first thing my mom, when she opens the door, she's like, I made you the ham. And it was not bad. So my mom, a nice Jewish woman, makes one hell of a nice baked ham. Well, you know, I think as we move forward into the history of humanity, the lines of religion, I am hoping, do become more blurred.

I'm hoping that our samenesses are more accessible than our differences. I just made up a new word of samenesses.

But yeah, I'm glad that your mom is a little bit open to that for you. And I should say that you're not supposed to eat like Jews as a Jews. You're not supposed to eat pork products. I know you're not supposed to. Yeah, that's why it was excellent. Of all the things that human beings do that are considered sinful, like war and cruelty and

murder and you know a litany of horrible things that we do you can't tell me that eating a ham is up on the top of the pile that that the Lord himself is going to point his spindly bony finger that's been here for trillions of years and go yeah no the ham was the tipping point Adam and you're not coming in here and

That's where it loses me though. That's where like the, I get the, I mean, as an agnostic person, I'm kind of standing on the sidelines going, you know, I have no idea. Yeah.

Yeah, I get lost in the details because I can't imagine that, you know, the Almighty's up there nitpicking on those specific things. So I'm like, really? You lost me on that one. That's where I fall off. Well, one thing that we're going to do that the Almighty will approve of is we're going to solve a problem today. Remember, we've been talking about dilemmas the last couple of weeks. Caitlin, I am going to let you, Adam is going to find music for the dilemma. He's going to go into his library of sounds.

And here they come right now, the Library of Sounds, to introduce...

The person's dilemma. Okay, so this comes care of one of our faithful listeners who wrote to us on the Jan Arden pod on Twitter. It's at Jan Arden pod. You should check us out. So the dilemma is in-laws who are not COVID careful and host dinner parties yet expect us to also visit. And I'm sure they expect this also once our eight-year-old returns to school are offended when we imply they should be more careful and they should see less people. Thoughts on this?

Wow. Well, thank you, dear listener. This is a dilemma. And I think this is a dilemma for thousands, tens of thousands of people out there who are grappling with the idea of wanting to see their aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. And we all have a friend that's not careful. We all have a friend that's just like, seems to be at all these functions and kind of close to people and

You know, my answer to that, and you guys may think I'm really hardcore here, dig your heels in and you simply have to draw the line. This can be very life or death, folks. Like this isn't about hurting somebody's feelings. This is about protecting the lives and the health of the people that you love. So for me, this is my opinion. Telling you I can't see them if they're doing that. Sorry.

that there's just too many unknowns. You can lean on the government, make the government the bad guy. Listen, the government says that,

It could be. And I mean, yeah, you're probably going to face some backlash and some disappointment, but this is your health and wellness. Anyone that knows anything about COVID, it is a crapshoot. It's Russian roulette. You don't know what version of it you're going to get. You don't know if you're going to be one of those people with sniffles and losing your taste buds or ending up in ICU on a respirator. And further to that, you don't know if these effects of COVID-19 are going to be years away.

or the rest of your life. So hardcore can't see you while you're doing this. I'm sorry. I don't mind visiting with you at a park bench. We can bring the kids and kind of wave to you from different benches.

But that is it. Caitlin, you got a minute. Recap? I agree in the sense that I think ultimately this just comes down to people's differing comfort levels with risk. And if you do not share the same comfort level when it comes to a risk of being exposed to COVID-19, right now it's going to be really hard to socialize with them. Social groups are being formed.

based on how comfortable people are spending time together. And you just have to explain, you're a little more comfortable spending time with people than I am right now. And that's fine for you. Ultimately, it doesn't sit well with me. I don't know where your friends who come over for dinner have been. I don't know who they're socializing with. I can't account for the web of contact that you're having. And so we just differ here. And unfortunately, right now, I have no choice. I have to kind of remove myself a little bit from seeing you socially. If we do see each other, we'll have to stick

to distancing and masks. Ultimately, that is what's being recommended anyways. And I'm doing it for the safety of my children. And also, believe it or not, the safety of you, because they can't account for where they've been either. So it's just personal preference. You can't poke holes in the condom. You can't poke holes in the condom. You're listening to the Jan Arden Podcast. I'm with Caitlin and Adam. Don't go away. We'll be right back. We have a very special guest with us today.

You probably pulled over to the side of the road because this is riveting stuff and we have just solved a listener's quandary about spending time with relatives that are loosey-goosey on their bubble. Their bubble is too big. Caitlin and I and Adam all agree you're better to hurt their feelings than to permanently hurt your heart or lungs with a virus that you do not want to contract. We got to be careful, folks. We're still knee-deep in the mud.

And if people's noses get out of joint, then they're, I don't think they care about you the way you want them to care about you because I would never question anybody if they're just like, oh yeah, for sure. No, totally. God, I was around people at a barbecue. Stay away from me for a couple of weeks. Absolutely understand. Take responsibility for your actions.

Moving on. This is a little left to center here, but I want to know what was the very first thing you guys cooked as a kid? Like responsibilities that you were given in the kitchen. Like my little brother, Patrick, like I'm telling you, he was five or six years old. He made the best chocolate cakes. My grandmother showed him once and then he did it all by himself with the hand mixer, with the little,

Things that you stick into the hand mixer and the cocoa powder, the from scratch chocolate cake. Patrick, shout out to you. So good. That's amazing. Oh, where was Patrick when I was growing up? This makes me even sadder that I was like an only child. But I would take over the leftover scraps from when my mom would make pies.

So I'd collect all the leftover pastry scraps and I would make my version of, I'd just make little jam or jelly rolls. And so you like, I'd flatten them out, cut them into a little triangle and then spread jam in the middle and then maybe add some cinnamon and then roll it up, do the egg wash and then pop them in the oven. Yeah. And so that was always my little, I would wait with my tiny person apron. So see, it's like how much pie scraps are left? Okay, great. I can make my jam rolls.

Caitlin, I remember that. I remember the little bits of pastry. God, I just wanted to eat the pastry raw. I wanted to eat the cake dough raw. I wanted to lick off the beaters. Adam, did you make anything as a kid?

I cook a lot now. I've discovered the joy of cooking in the last few years. I really like to cook. I mean, I've always barbecued and stuff, but now I really like to cook and be creative and try new dishes. But as a kid, I don't really think so. Like maybe I fried eggs for the, that was one of the first things that I made myself, but I wouldn't say as a kid, I really cook. You didn't nothing, didn't attempt cookies or anything? Trying to think. I probably helped my mom like bake or do stuff or cook, but I don't remember as a kid.

I just, yeah, I just have such fond memories of just my grandmother making stuff and letting us help her do it. There's a friend of mine, I've talked about her on the show before. Her name's Erin Ireland, and she's a vegan from, she's a wonderful vegan, a wonderful animal advocate, and an amazing foodie, an amazing chef.

She's just a home cook, but man, go on her Twitter feed, Erin Ireland, and check out what she's making. Anyway, she has a little daughter. I think her daughter is three. And she includes her in cooking all this stuff. Like I've seen more disasters of like a half a cup of cocoa powder, just like hitting the side of the bowl and going flying. And that little kid's face and Erin's just like, that's okay. You know, we got this. Her name's, her daughter's name is Rowan.

And that kid has been stirring stuff since she's been like 12 months old, 18 months old. And I'm just, I love it when parents are including their kids in tasks that yeah, may get a little bit messy. And especially now with having your kids at home a lot more than they would have been.

It's pretty darn cute. We're going to skip ahead now. This is today's show. I want to say that Zaya Tong is with us today. I know. I'm so excited. The Reality Bubble is a book she wrote in the last couple of years. Not even a couple of years, year and a half. Amazing book. And she's an amazing... It's so great. Yes.

It's so great. I feel like a little gift every time I like is presented to me every time I see her tweets and, and she's just so knowledgeable. And she has such a cool perspective on things because she talks about a lot of, you know, serious, important topics, but I think she's,

always so good at putting a kind of a positive spin on things like when you hear a lot of stuff of course about about climate change about the environment you know about animal consumption all that stuff it can get really dark and I think it can make people feel badly and so they turn it off and she always leaves you with this like hopeful nugget and um I just love that I love that attitude towards towards positive yeah she doesn't weaponize it she humanizes it that's great

Before Zaya gets here, we'll just clear the air. I want to know if you guys ever had tattoos, either of you guys, because I've never asked you that. Neither of you guys have a tattoo. I'm too noncommittal. I'm too noncommittal. Okay, well, I'm just talking about, like, I love the tattooing shows where it's...

tattoos that people got a when they were too young or B when they were really high or C when they were really drunk. This one guy, 18 year old guy in Virginia, he posted a video recently and he got a tattoo and it covers like his entire arm, like those sleeve things that go from your shoulder to your wrist and

So, you know, and he's young, he's 18. I don't even, is that legal age in Virginia? I don't know. I think so. Maybe 13 is the legal age in Virginia. I'm not sure. But anyway, he realized he got Dream Chaser written on his arm.

But the only problem was that I don't know what the tattoo artist was thinking, but he put it on that it only looks like Dream Chaser when you're looking in a mirror. It's backwards. It's backwards. It's crazy. And it's giant. Did he do it on purpose?

Well, Oh no. Oh no. It's a, it's enormous. And he didn't, he didn't realize it until he got home and he said he paid about 200 bucks and it's a full sleeve. So I'll tell you, it should cost more than that. I mean, I don't have tattoos, but I know lots of people to do. You can't, you can't just laser that off. You can't, that would, if that is so, if you thought getting a tattoo hurt, getting a tattoo removed is brutal. I only, I have my parents, my,

names and, and for trees on my right arm. And it's way bigger than I thought it would be like, but it is exactly what I wanted. I can't imagine looking at my arm and only being able to see my mother and father's names in looking in a mirror. It was right side up in backwards cursive. So on Instagram right now, there's,

There's a whole new trend of stuff happening with tattoos. I love them. I haven't ordered them, but I'm thinking maybe Christmas presents, maybe Adam, you and Caitlin might be getting some temporary. Oh, that's fun. Tattoos. I like that. I'm not anti-tattoo. I just, I'm not against tattoos. I think tattoos are great. I just, for me, I don't know if I'd want them permanently. But listen how fun this is. If you, cause you got two daughters, Adam. I know we got to wrap this up, but they're going to want a tattoo at some point.

This comes even in a little pen. So you put the stencil on, then you get to do something or you're, they can do, you know, the daughters can do each of their, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's a wonderful idea. We're out of time. Uh, cause Zaya's here. So I'm going to shut up and, uh,

When we come back, Zaya Tong is here and we're going to talk about stuff, the stuff that we have, the stuff that we think we need and why. Zaya Tong joins us on the Jan Harden Podcast when we come back.

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Go right now. I'm so excited. That's why I'm talking really, really fast because Zaya Tong is with us today. And if you are a Twitter person, Zaya is my favorite Twitter personality. She's my favorite. The things that you put on there, Zaya, are so incredible. They're informative. They're funny. They're acerbic. They're sarcastic. They are jabbing. They are little needles of...

people we can do better. Welcome to the show, Zaya. Oh my gosh, Jen. Thank you so much. The feeling is very mutual. I love following you on Twitter and I love basically we've become friends through it in a way. We really have. Say what you will about the internet, but I love it. Listen, there's so many things that I want to talk to you about all the time. Zaya wrote an incredible book

by her lonesome called the reality bubble and if you have not read the reality bubble I suggest you read it today we're gonna kind of be focusing on an amazing chapter chapter 10 in the book that Zaya talks about stuff our stuff our need to you know have it use it have it around us collect it what have you right out of the gate Zaya I want to know

If you think that there is a time in life to have things, to be surrounded with stuff, souvenirs, clothes, gadgets, whatever, the stuff that brings us joy. I feel like I'm going to get rid of this stuff at some point, but I'm not there yet.

Yeah, well, I think you're right to sort of hone in on there's a time in life when we are kind of really in acquisition mode. And really, that's kind of like midlife, right? And I'm actually reading a book right now by a woman who, who talks about the fact that her life kind of changed from the moment she bought a bought a washing machine.

She can divide her life into the time from when she owned a washing machine and from when she didn't. And you have to kind of think of like, you know, that's what I really find interesting about young people and old people, right? They're both kind of free. They're not kind of like on the, in the rat race on the treadmill of,

acquiring stuff, replacing stuff, buying stuff. And so when you look at like people like Greta and you look at the Sunrise Movement, you look at all these powerful youthful voices, it's because they can speak freely because they don't have a mortgage. They don't have to pay for their car payments or any of that sort of stuff. Same with older people. They've kind of let go. They're kind of like winding down. And that's why I love listening to elders who are like, what the heck?

the heck are you people doing? They're freer because they're not bogged down by stuff. But at the same time, there's not just a temporal aspect. I think there's a cultural aspect as well. We are in a society that consumes and buys and shops and needs stuff to kind of define who we are in a way. But many different cultures, even if you think of the Haida, their term potlatch actually means killing wealth.

Right? You actually actively, the most wealthy person there has to give away the most stuff, right? That's like a form of giving. And many different societies, whether it was the Hispaniola who were discovered by, not discovered, I take that back, who met with Columbus, they discovered themselves long before, or

They discovered Columbus. Yeah, exactly. They discovered Columbus. Or, you know, in New South Wales and Australia, the Aboriginal people there, like so much of their culture is about sharing and about giving away, not so much about accumulating. So I think there's two things, cultural and also a sort of temporal aspect. I feel like COVID has taught us many, many things.

And I'm sure there's a lot of other stuff we're going to unpack as this next year unfolds. One of the things that is a takeaway for me, Zaya, is that all the stuff I have, yes, it's been great to live in the country, to be in a rural area. But I'll tell you, I have enjoyed my stuff. And I've tried to share it. I mean, as much as I'd love to have 30 people come and stay with me that I know and love to keep me company, because it's been kind of solitary out here. I also dream of a time

where I don't have all of this.

But I don't know what that looks like. So how do we think about making that transition from the stuff that I have? And literally, I've got so many tchotchkes, but they all mean something to me. But that's okay, though, Jen. Like, I mean, I think the thing is, like, I think the difference and the thing that we need to kind of distinguish between is the ability to cherish our stuff and the

the fact that we have two sides, one side of us that loves our stuff and another side where, you know, if you try to imagine all the objects you've ever owned and thrown away, you know what I mean? That would be an immense amount of stuff. But the Japanese, for example, they believe in the sort of Sukumogami spirit. So they believe that if an object exists for a hundred years,

it develops a spirit, right? And so they're actually very careful with their stuff. They try to replace it and repair it and fix it, right? And you have to kind of think of like, who's gonna be handing down their Ikea furniture?

Nobody. The reason why we look at people, you know, who survived the depression, our grandparents, is because they had beautiful stuff. They had beautiful silverware. They had beautiful tables. They did. And they cherished it. Exactly. Have beautiful stuff, but take care of it. Don't, I think it's the idea that we need to have stuff for 10 seconds. And it's kind of like this, you know, I wrote about it in the book too.

And I quote Darren Brown, who talks about a hedonic treadmill, this idea of like constantly, you know, you buy an iPhone and then you have the iPhone for, you know, a little while. And then once you figured out how to use it, you feel like you need a brand new iPhone.

Is that sort of the Marie Kondo kind of thing? Am I saying her name right? I think so. She was the person, I mean, there was a wave that hit North America and probably Europe of people relegating what was prioritizing, I guess.

what was really important to them and if it brought them joy. So I do understand that way of you thinking about objects, but boy, they've sure become important in our lives, these things. Yeah. And I think, you know, you're right there. The question is, you know, do we own our stuff or do we,

Or does our stuff own us? And how much does our stuff define us? And, you know, if you think about your world around you, you could picture some concentric circles like me and then my clothes and then my furniture and then my car and then, you know, all these sort of concentric circles.

things. And William James actually talked about that. He was a psychologist who wrote about this idea of a blind impulse to become attached to our objects. And I'd like to, if you don't mind, just read you a quote. He wrote this in 1890. So he said,

A man's self, of course a woman as well, but a man's self is the sum total of all that he can call his. Not only his body and his psychic powers, but his clothes and his house, his wife and his children, his ancestors and friends, his reputation and works, his lands and horses and yacht and bank account. All these things give him the same emotions. If they wax and prosper, he feels triumphant. If

If they dwindle and die away, he feels cast down. Not necessarily in the same degree for each thing, but in much the same way for all. So the fact that our emotions can actually depend on the amount of stuff that we call our own is tricky. And as you know, like, I mean, I write about how we actually came to believe we own things because we don't. Like, it's this weird magical ability we have. Like, if you go into a store, right, like you just go into a dollar store.

Nothing there belongs to you. You don't care about any of that. But the minute you pick something up, right? Like you pick up a candle and you pay for it. That's yours. You know what I mean? And suddenly we have all these attachments to them. And if you put people under an MRI, a scanner...

And you actually look at, there's a part called the medial prefrontal cortex. And it's the same part of your brain that registers when you're talking about, you know, yourself or your name or self-referential biological aspects of your memory.

all of a sudden you think this object is yours, but it isn't really yours. Ownership is very much a process defined by the mind. So if you also think of another example, like if you go to a beach and there's lots of seashells there, right? Anybody can pick them up. But if then somebody goes and sets up a seashell stand that,

that they went and picked up the seashells. Well, now you got to pay that person five bucks for that. Damn it. Why didn't I think of that? Jan, you and I can go into a seashell business. I, I,

Just while this segment is wrapping up, just really quickly, and I want to talk about this going into this next part of the show, is there's the extreme to this of people hoarding, which has become quite a popular... There's a program on, I believe, TLC, Hoarders.

That is such an extreme thing. And there doesn't seem, there's no age limitation to when people start doing this and why, but it's very much, I think you might've answered my question about the ownership and about their identity. I mean, there's receipts that people don't want to part with like a paper receipt. No, I need that. I might need that. Like they can't even live in their homes anymore. Zaya.

That's it. And I've seen those shows too. And they're quite sad. And you're right, because actually when I was doing some research into it, it seems that hoarders do exist in different parts of the world. That doesn't seem to be a cultural thing. That seems to be much more of a, perhaps a mental sort of a real attachment issue, right? Like when we were talking earlier about this notion of your stuff being you, if you identify with your stuff being you, well, it's a lot harder to throw it away. So, you know, it's important for us to start a conversation

get a sense of who we are as separate from the things we own. Zaya Tong is my guest. Reality Bubble is the book.

If you are not interested in science, you will still love this book. If you're not interested in the philosophies of the depths of the human mind, space, the petroleum industry, how we're managing our precious resources, I'm telling you, this is an entertaining, wonderful, wonderful book. And you will not want to put it down. And we're coming into fall. You're going to want to read this book. It's COVID. It's COVID. And everything ties into this. I'm telling you,

Animal welfare, all of it. So reality bubble. Okay, Zaya, my parents died apart from each other. Not at the same time. No, people die. That's what they do. And my parents were very intrepid. They prepared me for death. They talked about death. But they didn't prepare me for the crap that they would leave behind that I would have to go through 60 years of their stuff. And I don't know how other kids feel out there. But man, Zaya, I got to know my parents on a level I don't think I wanted to know before.

Because it was personal letters. They had the Kama Sutra tucked under their bed springs. You know, I remember going, what is in here? And there was dog-eared pages. And I just, the stuff just...

Can I ask you something? Did you learn new things about your parents by looking at their stuff? Like, were you an anthropologist of your parents in a way or an archaeologist? Yes. What did you find? Like what, what? I mean, obviously the camasutra, that's a little bit private. But what else do you think you uncovered about them through their things?

The things that they enjoyed, their humanness. We look at parents like they are these infallible, perfect people that are supposed to solve our problems and pick us up and tell us what to do and give us money and bail us out. They're all knowing, but they're these fragile human beings that worry about life and death, just like I do, religion, God. You know, I looked at my dad and he had just a couple of pairs of shoes, Zaya.

And he had a few jackets. He wore t-shirts all the time. He had one suit that he had salvaged from his business days where he lived in a suit and ties, but he kept it for funerals. There's a lot of people dying now when you get to be our age. You need a suit for that. I think his...

His profound talent, especially my dad, the things that he made, I really looked at. His shop still smells like him. And even a couple of weeks after his death, which was five years ago, the radio was still on. And it was so haunting. I remember. Go out into a shop and this radio station was playing. And it was like, he's here, he's in here. But he was a very sexual person. Yeah.

I just didn't, I never thought about this. And just a lot of the literature he had, nothing, nothing like seedy or, or, or, or in any way distasteful. It was all kind of lovely erotica novels that he had. And I don't know, I just, I couldn't, I never knew anything about him.

That side of him, I imagine. I love the way you talk about the workshop that he had too, though, because that's another aspect of things when we're talking about stuff and ownership is like how different the world of crafts are. Like my friend's mom made me a pair of socks. Okay. Like, I don't know, maybe 12 years ago, I still have that pair of socks.

They're not the prettiest socks. They're actually a little itchy because they're wool and everything. But I love them because somebody made them. And how different the objects are that people make, as opposed to these days when you have mass produced. I don't know if you've ever seen How It's Made, that TV show. Yes, I watch it all the time. Object, object, object.

Well, all those objects are made by machines. And so when we talked earlier about this, you know, sort of Japanese spirit imbued in our objects, right? If you've had them for a long time, like, you know, this idea that there's, you know, some energy inside of them or what have you, there is something really beautiful about things that are made by people as opposed to things that are made by machines. Ultimately, though, we treasure things because of the memories attached to them, right? Oh, very much so. My manager recently turned 75, Bruce Allen.

And here's a man who's very wealthy. He's looked after Bryan Adams and Michael Buble and Murray, countless people, lover boy. I mean, go through the list of Canadian bands in the 70s and 80s, and Bruce had something to do with it. Anyway, on his 75th birthday, quite a marker, he wanted a handwritten note. Oh, see? That's what he wanted from people. He didn't want a single object. And I was so delighted to sit down. I got my calligraphy pen out, my ink pen.

It was such a tactile experience, such a spiritual, soulful experience that when I wrote the words down, I felt like there was love and respect and loyalty in the ink and in the words. And he said he got probably 100 of these cards and written letters. And he said he sat and cried and just ruminated and savored

all the letters people had written him. Because there's so much like value and spirit in what you, you know, that's a true gift. I mean, we're communicating with emojis. Yeah. But also if you think about, you know, a lot of the times when people go through fires, right?

There's a fire and you have to run out of the house and you have like, you know 10 minutes to grab your stuff The thing that most people pick up are pictures, you know, you gotta think you've got some stuff with some value in your house but people want to leave with the things that are really important to them and Those things are usually about human connections connections to other people less than about you know, the object is kind of like an intermediary

for your memory or for your connection to other people. It's the talking point. It's something that brings you back to that moment. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, you know, I always think about a fire here. I live in a forest and I know that I would grab my dog. Yeah. And so many of my mom and dad gave me a trunk and I have yet to go through it. Well, they didn't give it to me. I inherited it, I guess. So it is filled with

I'm going to say 40,000 photographs of the old black and white. Most of them mom wrote on the backup. So I haven't gotten there yet. I'm not there to sit cross-legged with a hot mug of tea and to go through those photographs.

But I want to. I'm not ready yet. I thought COVID being at home, I'm going to get into that big trunk. And my dad refinished this trunk. It was his great-grandfather's beautiful trunk and the workmanship. So there's so many aspects to it. But I know that handmade things really are important. They were important to our family.

The pioneers coming up. I have so many pictures, kind of like grapes of wrath of people coming with their wagon Zaya with everything they ever that, that they cherished. They would go for three months trips with their fine China. Yeah. Packed so carefully that one thing they were going to frigging haul that over mountains, streams,

by God, they were going to get that China there. And I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, that's how we became really the most powerful species on earth though, is through our stuff, right? Like way, way, way back when, when we were hunters and gatherers or what have you, you know, it's those people who first came up with those first spears and, you know, they'd sharpened up a spear and that spearhead was like darn good. And they were like, I'm going to keep

that. And they started keeping more stuff. And then we started becoming more sedentary and we had more stuff and we would trade more stuff. And really now we have so much stuff, whether it's weapons and arms or houses and cars that allows us to speed through. That's what has made us an incredibly powerful species. But when I look at other animals in the animal world, right, I see maybe like an octopus that can carry like an octopus shell.

We are a little different because we have a lot of stuff compared. Like there's no other animal that like has to, like needs a moving van in order to like move around quite freely. But it also reminds me, you know, when you talk about your dog,

You know, there's a whole section in the book, really, which is about how we started. I loved it. I loved that section. Oh, about the animals in general. Yes. But there's also another dark side to that, which is that we consider animals property. Yes. It's a very weird idea. You know what I mean? Like every, think about it, every species on earth, we like, we own the land, we own the water.

We own like cows. We own pigs. But imagine like the majesty, the miracle of life. Like if you were to go to another species, like imagine suddenly on Mars,

there was an insect discovered, right? Like just some sort of insect-like creature. We wouldn't own that thing. You know what I mean? We might. We might go there and take ownership. Try to. Yeah, try to. But it's this idea that we think we own all life forms that I think has really perverted our place on earth. And it's actually core to some of our problems today.

And yet there are ways to free ourselves from it, right? I think you know in the book I write about there's an amazing tree, I think it's in Georgia, called the tree that owns itself, right?

And this guy, he loved this tree. And so he bestowed the tree and all the soil to itself. And then the tree actually came down in a snowstorm one time. And the people, the whole community, basically they took the sapling from the tree. And then now it's called the son of the tree that owns itself. And the tree owns itself. But in New Zealand, there are rivers that have rights now. And parts of the Amazon that have their own rights now. So to be able to have parts of nature...

have their own rights, to own themselves is actually a really beautiful thing instead of us thinking we own everything because we don't, as we talked about earlier. It's really a trick of the mind. You wrote something so beautiful to me on Twitter. You may not remember it. I'll never forget it as long as I live. You said, Jan, imagine here we are on this little tiny speck going to the universe. We have no idea what's out there right now. We're just alone going through the...

the abyss, and we're just here on this planet with all these other living things, and we're killing them all. We don't know of any other life out there on the planet. I mean, it was much more succinct, but it gave me goose flesh because you talked about

What are we doing? You know, this massive slaughtering, you know, not only for food, but for leather, for shoes, for clothing. And anyway, I just, I want to thank you for that. But if people could see that. So yeah, like, I mean, I think that's such a key thing. You know, you're right. No other life, like as far as like trillions of light years or kilometers away, we're alone. We're here. Yeah, the beauty.

Except the animals. Yeah. But 60 to 80 billion, we kill every, not in total, 60 to 80 billion a year. And that's not counting the trillions of fish. And people go, well, what's the, you know what I mean? We fill the internet with beautiful images of animals and dogs and puppies. And we love animals. But we need to reflect and we need to look at the bigger picture of what we're doing to our fellow earthlings. Thank you. And part of that is not thinking that we own them.

Because if we think we own them, when you go into the supermarket, you know, those cows and those fish and those pigs, they're worth $3.99 when they go over the supermarket belt. And it's because we're not putting a connection. It's easy to disconnect, right? You're looking at something that's sitting under some cellophane that doesn't look like a living thing anymore. But if you were going by cages with animals in them. Oh, heck yeah. Anyway, I wish we had. We're going to speak again. I hope that you'll consider coming and talking with us again. I learned so much today.

You are a beautiful spirit. You make the world better. I am so proud to be traveling through this void with people like you, Zaya Tong, on it, enlightening us, teaching us, and writing about things that are important about human life. So thank you, thank you, thank you for taking time for us. Thank you, kindred spirit. Yep. The reality bubble. Read it. Get it. Zaya Tong has been our guest today. Thanks for listening to the Jen Arden Podcast. Have a good day.

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