Bernie Taupin: The Storyteller 57:06

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shied away from really getting specific about what songs mean. It is like contemporary art. I like people to sort of look at them like they would look at an abstract painting. Hey, everybody. It's literally and it's me, Rob Lowe, Robbie Lowe. Bernie Taupin is on the show today. So excited. I mean, his work with Elton John,

It is music to me. It is the definition of music. When I think of my life, it will be in music and it will be Bernie and Elton. They also happen to be great men and just the kindest, nicest, most accomplished people. And when you think about songwriters,

You know, you got your Lennon and McCartney and you've got your Bob Dylan's and, you know, no one's going to top Bernie for me. And this is going to be a blast. And he has a new book out called Scattershot about his life, which I can't wait to get into. Mr. Bernie Taupin.

Hey, Bernie. Rob, good morning. How are you? I'm pretty good, neighbor. How are you? I'm good. Are you up on the ranch? Are you up in the valley? Oh, I'm not at the ranch. I moved from the ranch about five years ago. So I'm actually on the edge of Solvang right now. Oh.

Oh, I didn't know. But you're still a country man. I'm still a country boy all the way, but I just kind of downsized. When you get to be my age, all that acreage is a little too much to handle. That makes total sense. You know what I realized looking at the research to talk to you today is I spent four months basically in your original hometown of Lincolnshire.

What on earth were you doing there? Bro, I mean, I have a newfound respect for, as if I didn't respect you enough already. So I did a TV show that exists. It's out there. It's called Wild Bill. And I play an American cop.

transported to Lincolnshire to run the police department. That is phenomenal. I mean, how did they even come up with that locale of all the choices they would have in England? They come up with Lincolnshire. Nice cathedral. Yes, the cathedral. Once you've seen the cathedral, that's kind of it. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And that was quite cosmopolitan compared to where I grew up. All I know is there was a lot of cabbages growing

And there was a lot of windmills. I don't remember the windmills. I remember potatoes, cabbages, and what they call kale back then, which was used as cattle food, I think. Now they're all wind farms. There wouldn't even have been a wind farm back in the day. But yeah. Oh, my God. When was that? When was that? I shot it like four, almost five years ago.

Oh, okay. Well, you see, I haven't been there for like 50 years. So if you think it was a little odd when you were there, can you imagine sort of how archaic it was when I was there growing up? Well, it definitely would inspire a young man to be a dreamer. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It had, it definitely had that kind of effect on me without a doubt. Um,

Are you excited with the reception from the book, which is amazing? Unbelievable. I mean, beyond my wildest dreams to be able to say that I am now a New York Times bestselling author is definitely something to cross off my bucket list. It is. No one can ever take that away. But by the way, you're already one of the great writers. It's not like you needed it. I mean, you know, people know you're a wordsmith.

Well, yeah, but it's on a different level. It's for a completely different sort of endeavor. So as I say, to add that to a list of achievements is really something very, very special. I mean, I never imagined that in my wildest dreams. So the reception has been fantastic and I'm absolutely thrilled. As you were writing the book and you're thinking back on all the various phases of...

your life and your career, of which there have been so many, did you have a moment where one really resonated for you and you were just completely transported or have a moment where you're like, oh gosh, you know, looking back on that, that wasn't all I thought it would be. Like, what was your main takeaway as you were looking back on your life, if that's a fair question? I know it's a very broad question.

Well, it was all-encompassing. In fact, my memory is not terribly good, as I make very clear in the book, which hence the reason that it's scattershot, that it's sort of literally all over the place. But one of the things that really...

It was very liberating for me in the sense that I would zero in on a particular event in my life and I would start writing about it in the sense of what I recalled and what I remembered.

But then it was almost like being psychoanalyzed, being on the couch. I would start remembering things that I'd completely forgotten, which, as I say, was very liberating. And so, yeah, it was like analysis in a way. But it was such a...

It was basically just a lot of fun to do. The book in general, when I started out, I had actually written a piece for Bazaar magazine, which is actually in the book at the beginning of the book about the first time I met Elton.

And I'd written that for Bazaar, which had accompanied a photo shoot of our friend Brandy Carlisle in sort of Elton costumes. And the reception to the piece that I wrote was so good that Bazaar said, well, if you ever want to write anything else, you know, this is one of the best pieces that we've ever had been presented with. And so that was kind of a nice pat on the back for me. So I started writing Bazaar.

some more like prose pieces about incidents in my life, whatever came to mind. And then suddenly after I'd written three or four, I thought to myself, well, I guess what I'm doing here is writing a book. Wow. And it just rolled on from there. And as you know, the book is sort of geographically all over the place. And it just took place as I...

felt, it was whatever I felt compelled to write about at the time, as I say, hence the title. But it was, as I say, I keep using the word liberating, but I can't think of a better word. What a process. I mean, I really want to talk about your process in general, but even your book process was extraordinary. Because most people...

They get a deal to write a book or they think about writing a book and they write an outline and they do all these. But yours was super organic, what you just described. It's almost like an impressionist painting is what I'm getting. You just went to the canvas and, you know, you followed your muse. Well, what you're saying there is kind of interesting when you're talking about contemporary art, because that's really sort of in a way,

how I feel about my work in general, especially as a songwriter. I've always shied away from really getting specific about what songs mean. It is like contemporary art. I like people to sort of look at them like they would look at an abstract painting and come up with, draw their own conclusions. So, yeah,

That's a good analogy, what you're saying there. It's funny. I'm a huge music fan, particularly of the era that you come from and Elton. And it's funny. Last night, I got to see Neil Young at the Roxy. Literally last night. Oh, good for you. Yeah. How was that? It was great with Crazy Horse. Oh, good. Whoever remains from Crazy Horse. I think there's one guy alive from Crazy Horse. It must have been loud. Yeah.

It was so loud. Yes, not something Neil ever shies away from. And by the way, so ragged. Yeah, oh yeah. Whatever the opposite of a tight band is, that's what this is.

Yeah, I think that's what you would call the original garage rock. Right. It really was, wasn't it? Before Nirvana, before any of it, it was that. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's our era's punk. But the writing is the exact opposite of what you were describing. It's, for the most part, I mean, it's a phrase, you know exactly, he's talking about something, you know what happened. Yeah, it's pretty in your face. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, I mean, your song is,

is pretty easy to follow, story-wise. Right, right. Yes, yeah. I think when you look at our canon, you know, there's a little bit of everything. There is the esoteric, there is the very direct,

The interesting thing about your song is that I think it's more conversational than a particular love song. It's somebody trying to, considering their own innocence. It's very virginal and makes sense because I wrote it when I was sort of 18 years old. And it sounds like an 18-year-old. It sounds like somebody who's probably even younger than that.

But it is. It's somebody sort of deciding how they want to write something, which I think is the beauty of that song, because it's very conversational. It's, now, do I mean this or do I mean that? And how should I put this? And what do I remember? So I think that's the uniqueness of that song. I mean, it is completely...

an artifact of that particular time or somebody of that particular age, as opposed to some of the things that came maybe 30 years later, which were written by somebody who's actually been through the mill, you know, whether it's divorces, uh, uh,

breakdowns of marriages, indiscretion, whatever you, you know, I always say that the song Sacrifice was the complete arc of your song. It's the bookend of it, the same character, but 30 years later. Oh, wow. I'll listen to them back to back. I love all the songs, but I love that song. Well, Sacrifice is one of my favorite songs that we've ever written. And as I say, it really is to me, I think of it

as the same, well, it is the same person that wrote your song, but it's the same character in the song only years later after, you know, he's experienced all of the things that he hadn't experienced when he was so young. So, first of all,

I want to point out to everybody listening, Bernie just said that he wrote your song at 18 years old. And it sounds like it. Oh, come on now. It's in the best possible way. Well, yes, exactly. That's not to deride the song at all. In fact, that's the beauty of it, as I said. And for those of you who don't know, famously, at least at some point in your relationship with Elton,

You wrote the lyrics like and just would fax them to Elton. Is this right? Walk me through because that's what the sort of urban legend is. I just have this imagination of Elton waking up very probably in those days late in the afternoon and going to the machine. And there is. OK, let's see.

There's a candle in the wind. Yeah, there's definitely a massive amount of urban legend there. And as in all urban legends, one has to dispel the myth.

It's never really happened like that, to be quite honest. And when you say fax machine, believe me, we did not have fax machines back in those days. That was something that was completely something of the future. So the very, very, very first things that we ever did, I...

Before I was actually full-time living in London, I might have mailed him a few things. But you have to remember that I came to London in 1967, and we met in 1967. And before long, we were living at his mother's apartment in the suburbs of London.

And so we were in the same apartment together. So I would be writing in one room and he'd be at the piano in the living room. And so it was like a mini Brill building. You know, we were just walking up and down the hallway from one room to another. I'd go in and say, oh, I just wrote this, try that. And he'd come back to the bedroom and say, come up to the living room and listen to what I'm working on. So they really...

And at that particular point in time, we were living in the same apartment together. So there was no mailing, no faxing involved. Now, as time went on and, you know, as, as is the way of life, as we grew older and began to develop our own lives and we came to the United States for the first time, uh,

and I chose to stay here, and he would go back to England. Yeah, I would sometimes send him things, but for the most part, we would always write when we were going to make a record. So we would be together in the studio, and I would present him with things then, and he would write in the studio. So there really...

Over the course of time, there's really been very little actually sending him material or faxing him material or now, you know, just emailing stuff, which does happen now prior to albums.

So, yeah, that's my take on the urban myth. Well, it's so funny because that is the urban myth. Well, people also say that I wrote your song sitting on the roof of a music publisher's in Denmark Street. So I don't know where on earth...

I've seen that online and a lot of people are convinced that that's where I wrote your song and not at the breakfast table at Elton's mother's apartment. Tell me, give me some, I know you don't like to explain your songs, but even if not specifically, who is Levon? Who is that person? Well, Levon's a fictional character. But it's such an extraordinarily...

drawn, complex,

anti-hero character. Well, yeah, you know, the thing is that that was part of the Mad Men Across the Water album, and all of those songs on that album were the first songs that I wrote after I came to the United States. So it's almost a travelogue, a geographical sort of transversing of the United States as we did at that time. And I'd pick up

characteristics of people all over the place and put them into my songs, whether it's sort of somebody you'd see in a truck stop like in Razor Face and then obviously all the characters that compile together make up Tiny Dancer. And so Levon really was, again, I think of myself not so much as a songwriter but a storyteller. And I

I probably was reading a lot of science fantasy at the time, a lot of Ray Bradbury, because that's where Rocket Man came from. And so, Levon was just a sort of really off-kilter, off-the-wall story that just fell out of my head. And whether the

The name Levon came from Levon Helm. I've no idea. You know, I can imagine it didn't because I don't think I can think of anybody else who was called Levon. But it was something that was obviously subconscious. But yeah, I mean, if you boil it down, it's just a weird story about a guy who calls his son Jesus and sells balloons. I don't know.

Can you imagine that? Now that's a hit. I know a hit. I don't think it was ever a single actually. I mean, I remember it vividly on the, as a kid, it was on the radio all the time. Yeah. But you have to remember though, the thing is back in those days, FM radio was a whole different animal. They would play out in tracks. Uh,

You'd hear Aretha Franklin next to Cream. It wasn't broken down into genres like it is now, where...

you have just a top 40 format. And thank the Lord for Sirius, because now you get to hear music again that wasn't on the radio for so long. But like I say, back in the day in LA and New York, the radio stations were phenomenal because they literally played everything. I mean, you'd hear rock

soul, not so much country, but R&B, all on the same show. And yeah, they would play...

album cuts. And you might be correct. I don't remember Leave On as a single, but if you heard it on the radio, it possibly was. But I'm not very good like that. I don't have Elton's capacity of remembering everything. He remembers everything. He remembers every place he's played, where, when,

probably even the capacity of the auditorium, you know, so, but that's in his wheelhouse, which is something that's not in mine. I always say that when I turn on the radio, it's you and Elton. Like, that's

That in my life, like your song, it's overused. Your songs are the tapestry of our lives, but it's the truth. And like, that is, that's the voice for me of AM radio. Like when I hear honky cat, I'm at the Montgomery County fair in Dayton, Ohio.

my mom and dad and the sun is just going down and I can smell the hay on the floor. It's nuts. It's crazy. You know what? That never gets old, Rob. That never gets old. I mean, yes, you're right. People say that all the time. Oh, your music is the soundtrack of

my life and I hope you're not, I don't, you know, I know you hear it all the time and, and believe me, if I didn't hear it all the time, that's when I'd start worrying. And I, it never fails me.

to make me feel better about our body of work, and especially the way you describe it there. You know, if you think of a song and you can smell the hay in your childhood or the fresh mown grass and it brings back those memories, that means the world to me. Well, and you know, the other thing is, and it's not like I don't hear that song all the time. I hear it all the time and it still does it.

Well, our songs seem to, thank God they do, they seem to sort of drift along on the wings of time. They seem to find new life every decade or so, and they come back to haunt us in the best way possible, and that's incredibly gratifying also. ♪

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. Tell me a little bit of background on Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, the song. Who's the person who... The protagonist in it is probably me. Who wanted to lock you up in the penthouse is what I want to know.

Was she hot? I hope she was hot. No, that's a metaphor for fame. Oh, it's not a physical presence. That's definitely a metaphor for fame. It, it,

was obviously written, you know, as we started when we started the show. Yeah, I'm still a country boy at heart. And that will never be lost to me. So I think it was probably just inspired by our first taste of fame and the way that I was expected to deal with it. So fame is the penthouse. And

the connotations to The Wizard of Oz. I don't know. Again, it's all a smorgasbord of lyrical content for me, but I think the basic thing is how to deal with fame and

The idea of in the song, obviously, but not true to life in the song is like, I got to get back to my roots. To Lincolnshire. You got to get back to your plow, man. You got to get back to those cabbages. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if it was necessary Lincolnshire. I think it was I needed to get back to a more tranquil place. Right. So I think I was probably looking forward to Lincolnshire.

my capability of finding that kind of place, but here in the United States. What is, whether it's like the famous

Elton and George Michael at, I want to say Live Aid, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me or Candle in the Wind at Diana's funeral. Has there been an iteration of your work that by others that you go, oh yeah, that's seminal. That was a moment.

Yeah, absolutely. Aretha Franklin singing Border Song. That was the first cover that we ever had that both Elton and I went, whoa, this is cool. So that along with probably, although, yeah, I'd have to say also Frank Sinatra singing our material live on stage. That was...

Did you get to see Frank sing it in person? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Tell me about this. Well, I write about it extensively in the book because, as I'm sure you know, Frank Sinatra, when he performed, would always credit the arranger of the song and the songwriters, which...

was a wonderfully generous attribute of him as a singer and seeing that he was probably the greatest song stylist of the 20th century. And I've always been completely enamored and in awe of him all of my life. And so it was at...

I believe it was, it might have been the Hollywood Bowl or the Greek Theater. I can't remember. I've got it in the book, but that's immaterial. Yeah.

But he would sing, sorry seems to be the hardest word on stage, but he also sang a song that we wrote called September, which wasn't a particularly good song, but we actually wrote it for him. And he never recorded it, but he would sing it on stage on occasion. And I happened to be in the audience singing

when he performed it, and he goes down as the only person ever to introduce me by the French pronunciation of my name, which has never happened before. Topaine.

Yeah, Topin, which actually roughly translated means the little mole. But yeah. And so did he hit you with Bernie? No, it just said Bernie Topin. Okay.

And, and I, um, Jilly Rizzo came up to me, uh, after the concert to my seat and we all know Jilly was his conciliare. Yeah. Um, and minder and sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said, you Bernie?

Frank wants to see you. And that was life-changing, I can tell you. When Frank Sinatra puts his arm around you and says, you're a hell of a writer, kid. Wow. Knees turned to jelly. Knees turned to jelly. That is... I mean, that's an unbelievable story. I...

It's a way, way better version than my interaction with Frank, where he grabbed me by the face, like really hard, like an Italian, like boogle, boogle, boogle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then with the other hand, slapped me. Oh, God. Like pop, pop, pop, and pulled me in close to him and said, my grandkids love you.

That's awesome. And how old were you then? I was probably 20. Right. And where was that? It was in Dallas. I'll never forget it, obviously. No, of course not. It was a charity event for the Princess Grace Foundation. Okay. Okay. In Texas. And it was...

It was very much towards the end. Right, right. And he was performing. That was also the night, incidentally, that at one of the tables watching Frank sing was Prince Rainier, Robert Mitchum, Gregory Peck, and Robert Wagner.

Wow. And Cary Grant. Oh, my gosh. And- Cary Grant came to our Dodger Stadium show, obviously the first one, yeah, and hung out with us the whole day. It was amazing. Well, I saw them all sitting there, and I went over to kiss the rings, right, to go pay my respects to my elders and legends. And as I walked away, I distinctly heard Robert Wagner under his breath say-

You know, that young man has banged every one of our daughters. I'm not going to ask him if he was right. The Dodger Stadium. I'm so bummed I didn't get to see Elton at Dodger Stadium this year. But what a legendary. And you were there. So you wouldn't go on tour, but you would meet up with Elton.

Elton for here and there for the big shows? Yeah, I mean, from day one, when we first started touring in the United States, I mean, obviously back then I was only 20 years old. So I would go on all the tours and, you know, I'd be a sort of factotum part of the band, really. And that was fun. But obviously, as you grow older and you develop your own

life and you meet other people you know you branch off right you you begin to do periphery things that uh don't include touring and obviously it would become a grind if you kept doing it so from those days on yeah i would i would go in and out and see him you know on tour and

Even on this final tour, I mean, out of the... Well, he was on the road with it, give and take COVID, of course, you know, for about five years. Yeah. And I think of all of the final shows, I maybe only saw...

maybe a dozen, I would say. But they were all key shows. I didn't see the very, very last one because that was in Europe somewhere. I believe it was in Sweden or Finland or somewhere. And so the very last show I did see was the last day of Dodger Stadium. And I got to go on and take a bow. And that was obviously incredibly gratifying. But...

At the same time, I just accepted it. There were no tears. There were no regrets. It was, okay, this is the end of an era, but it's not the end of our careers. We're going to keep doing things and we're going to be making a record soon. And so, as I say, the touring may be done, but the rest of it is still up above and above.

ready to fly. The touring is such a... I mean, it's such a grind. It's... I mean, even doing it at the level which... Right. I mean, you know... Yeah, it is. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. And, I mean, the guy is unbelievably resilient. And, I mean, I...

That was the one thing about this tour that amazed me. I think he was at the peak of his powers on this tour. He was singing better than ever. He was playing better than ever. The band was better than ever. I mean, anyone who saw him saw the very, very best of Elton John, believe me. Well, that's saying something. I mean, I've seen Elton. I mean, the first time I ever saw Elton, I'll never forget it.

I was on location making The Outsiders. I was 18 years old. And then me, Tom Cruise, and all the guys walked across the street to wherever convention center it was in Tulsa. And somehow they got us backstage. And I just remember my vision of Elton dressed as a captain. Oh, okay. He was like in a captain's outfit, just standing. Let me ask you something. Was that Tulsa? Yes.

That's funny because I was just in Tulsa last week. I just did a Q&A at the Bob Dylan Center and somebody mentioned something about a house that the

All of you guys, when you did The Outsiders, stayed in. Is that correct? It's a museum now, as it turns out. It's a museum now. Right. That's so funny because I was literally just there. That's so funny. It's... Yeah, now it's a museum. It's the set. The main set has been turned into a museum. But yeah, that's... That's exactly what they told me. Yes. And I just remember being so nervous and standing completely by himself and being nervous and...

The thing that amazes me about Elton is his total knowledge and recall and participation in everything contemporary today. He knows every actor. He knows every musician. He knows every trend. He knows every piece of gossip. And like on the other side of it is Barbra Streisand.

who I also know well. Right. And Barbara doesn't know anything about anybody. Right. Okay. Well, that's certainly completely the opposite of Elton. But do you know what I mean? Because these two tight legends, and they've decided...

to use their energies in completely different ways, both of which I totally get, by the way. Right, right. But it's interesting to me. I think I'd probably lean towards

For me, I'd be more on the Streisand side because I'm terrible. I'm very not well-informed on contemporary music that much. As I said, in the past, I never paid any attention to charts, listings. If we had an album out, I wouldn't follow it in Billboard. I would just...

somebody would just tell me, oh, the album's number one. And I'd go, oh, great. That's really cool. Let's go get a drink and celebrate. But I never followed the charts like Elton did. I mean, Elton is absolutely so committed to not only following the charts, but also investing time in promoting young artists. You know, he has that podcast. He does everything.

And he's always, always a champion for new talent. And I have the highest respect for him for doing that. You know, I'm just not glued in. That's all. It takes tremendous time, commitment and energy. A lot of work. It's a lot of work. A lot of work. Yeah.

I'm with you. I'm a little bit more of a recluse that way. Since we're dealing with apocryphal wives' tales, urban legends, when you and Elton took your break from 77 to 79, was it really a breakup? Or was it just time to do other things? I mean, I know what the popular consensus is, but I'm curious what you say about it in the book and how you really feel about it. Yeah.

The first thing is there was absolutely no animosity. It was no falling out. It was simply out of fear of the unknown, I think. It was right after we'd done the Blue Moves album, which again, I think we'd had three albums in a row that had gone straight in the charts at number one.

We played Dodger Stadium. We played all of these stadiums across the country. We had number one singles, bang, bang, bang, one after another.

So when that happens, there's an element of fear that seeps in because you go, where do we go from here? And in fact, I wrote a song about it called The Bridge, which was on the sequel to Captain Fantastic, which was called The Captain and the Kid, which chronicles our sort of life when we first came to the United States.

And what the premise of the bridge is that we all, if we achieve this monumental success, you have to cross that bridge. And you're going to either do it one of two ways. You're going to start moving across it and you're going to just fall off the side. And that's it. Your career's done. You've got no momentum. Or you're going to...

push on over to the other side and continue doing what you do best and hope that you will retain a modicum of success that's never going to be as huge as you were in the past, but you are going to coast along on your God-given talent and hopefully retain, you know, a respectable modicum of success. And so...

I think what that break did was we just sort of said, we need to take this break from each other.

We need to draw a good deep breath, maybe do a couple of things on the side, which he did. I did also, I did an album with Alice Cooper and wrote a couple of songs with other people. And ultimately, we just, without even knowing it, drifted back together again and started working and just took up where we left off with a new lease on life. So you hear about artists

Springsteen comes to mind after Born in the USA, you know, Coliseum sold out because he could have played the LA Coliseum for a month if he wanted to. And then it was like, I'm going to dial it way back, way back. And you hear that. I've heard it from artist after artist after artist is that the scariest time is at the pinnacle of success. Well, I think the thing is that

If you're in a band, that's a different animal because bands break up and they just go and do solo things. Bands are very dangerous. I can't think of many bands where...

It didn't end up in some sort of acrimonious fallout. You just pick one out of the air and everybody ended up bickering and fighting. Unless you do the U2 thing, which is everybody, equal share, equal songwriting, right?

Very good point. Very good point. And they're an anomaly, I think. And it's because of that. It has to be because of that. It's just purely and simply. I don't disagree. That's absolutely correct. But yeah, it's really...

It's something you could spend a lot of time dissecting and discussing. And I mean, there are people that have been hugely popular for a certain short amount of time, and then they really just sort of disappear. They disappear.

They disintegrate. I mean, it's like if you think of somebody... The perfect example is somebody like Donovan, who was huge, huge in the late 60s, early 70s. And it was such a niche for him. And then suddenly one day he was just gone. And now he's still out there performing, but...

It's not like, say, it's not like Eric Clapton. Right. Or quite, you know, I could mention another handful of people. But yeah, it's that thing about that. It's that bridge that you have to cross and you have to continually find new things to say and new ways to say it. And you don't have to...

kowtow to modernity, you know, in a, all the way, but you've got to, you've got to lend from it and borrow and, and just, as I say, new things to say, to stay relevant. Well, that's what I, what do you make of the theory that there are a lot of people who have these amazing debut albums and they never follow it up? And it's not the, the, the, the sophomore slump. It's like, they just said all they had to say.

Very good point also. Yeah, I mean, yes, there are certain, you know, Alanis Morissette is the perfect example. You know, yeah, I think she was a very angry young lady at the time and unloaded it all in that one album and then was tremendously successful with it.

But then she was successful and she didn't have anything more angry to say, I guess. She wasn't angry anymore. And I'm just using her as an example because it was the first thing that came to mind. Well, you think of it like jagged little pill is one thing, but you don't want to follow it up with delicious Frappuccino. It just doesn't have the same. The other example, too, but it's interesting, Mike.

and sad to say she just passed away. But when you think of somebody like Sinead O'Connor, who actually only ever had one successful record, but had a very successful career, I think a lot of it had to do with her activism, obviously, and was highly respected by people. But if you actually dissect it,

She wasn't that successful as a recording artist, only sort of, it was like a flash in the pan, you know, as they used to call them, you know, one-hit wonders. But you can't really call her that because she had a very active career and a very odd career. But so I think there's different ways of perceiving that particular, what's your topic that you're talking about there. But interesting, very interesting. ♪

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. Okay, I have to talk to you about this because I do not... I need to tell you that I think we built this city as one of the great songs. I don't know why... No, no, I'm not... I am not kidding. I unironically, totally unironically...

Love We Built This City, and the notion that everybody thinks that, well, how did it start? Was it the theater critic?

that started the whole thing, that it's the worst song ever? Well, I don't know. Several magazines dubbed it the worst song of all time. What the, wait, come on. No, I'm just, Rob, I'm just telling you the story. Bernie, had those people not heard Mr. Roboto by Styx? I have no idea. Which is the worst song ever. Mr. Roboto by Styx is the worst song ever.

Ever. One Night in Bangkok is not good. There's a lot of bad songs.

Okay, but let me just tell you this. So I think there was a magazine called Blender, I think, or something that voted it the worst song ever. Although it's much, it's outlasted Blender, I think, or Spin or whatever. But also, I think GQ also said the same thing too. But, you know, with all due respect, I hold that sort of as a badge of honor. In fact, honestly,

On my desk here, I don't know if you can see this. Okay, it's a cartoon, yes. It's a cartoon. Okay, this is on my desk, and it's a cartoon by a guy called Scott Hilburn called The Argyle Sweater. And it says, torture methods listed by pain level, 33 thumb screws, 28 the rack,

11, the pillory, 8, the Iron Maiden, number 2, starships, we built this city. Come on! Yeah, you see, I have a sense of humor about it. Anyway, it's certainly paid for a lot of groceries over the last, you know, 20 years or however long it's been. Well, I also, I love all of these types of stories. I love

Glenn Frey had a great story, God bless, God rest him from the eagles, that I guess Tom Waits loathed their version of Old 55. Oh, right. Loathed it. And Glenn would say, and then he'd go, yeah, he loathes it. He goes, but he sure likes the royalty checks. Oh, yeah, of course, of course. Well, I could say the same thing about Grace Slick, because Grace Slick does nothing but not rebuild this city. Mind you, she started knocking it down

after the success of it, obviously, you know, she didn't do it while it was successful and while it was a number one record, but over the years, she's continually double, double down on ragging on the song, you know, can you please, I really, I want, I just need to do a second of a deep dive. I mean, I love the way they have the, the DJ come in at the end of it over there. There's so much cool shit in it. It's,

It's so infectious. Obviously, you're not alone because it's been a huge, huge, you know, it was a huge number one hit. And it still to this day resonates in people singing at sporting events. There's a commercial right now. You know, I watch baseball all the time and there's a commercial about

on right now about something. We built this toilet. We built this toilet on something. So, you know, that makes me laugh so hard because this week it was Katy Perry sold her catalog. And I go, that's the good news. The bad news is you sell your catalog and you wrote, we built this city and you're watching baseball and it's, we built this toilet. Yeah. I mean, I can't even tell you how many sort of

commercials and corporate ads it's been used in. I mean, it's one of those songs that just, it's a gift that keeps on giving. It's amazing. I also think it's the scenario where when James Cameron stood up at the Oscars and said, I'm the king of the world, what he was doing was quoting the movie. But people are such idiots. Right.

Such idiots that they thought James Cameron was saying he literally is the king of the world. And I think the notion that Starship was going, hey, we built this city. We built it in rock and roll. People are like, no, you did not. And

And like, you know, what's funny, Rob is the original demo of that song that a guy called Martin page. And I wrote before another guy called Peter Wolf took it and turned it into sort of this anthemic song, the original demo. If you heard it, you probably wouldn't even recognize it. It's, it's a very sort of dark brooding, um, semi kind of mid tempo ballad. Uh,

And the guys in the studio are the ones that really took it and kicked it up a notch. So I owe them a debt of gratitude because they did the work that turned it into that sort of phenomenon that it's become.

Also, These Dreams. A lot of people don't know you wrote that for Heart. Yeah, well, that was two back-to-back. Those were two number ones, almost back-to-back, that I wrote with Martin Page. So that was a good year. In fact, Elton claims that he was very jealous by that point.

Oh, I bet. I mean, those are monsters. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I got to see Hart right before they broke up. That's just the saddest. I want those two to get back together. And it's the saddest thing ever. Yeah. There you go again. Groups, man. They, you know, siblings. It's just legendary, you know?

you know, the, everybody going back to Ray and Dave Davies, you know, and then those guys from, what's that band from England? The two brothers. Yeah. Oh, Oasis. Right. Yeah. You know, that's like things that people like, you couldn't pay me to be with him. They're proving that, that, that, that tour would be so big. And they're like, no, you couldn't, you couldn't pay me.

Right, right. So the same thing with Anne and Nancy, you know, I mean, I've heard rumors that they're patching things up. So hopefully they do because I know the two of them very well and I love them both, you know, so hopefully they'll get it together. I saw, like I said, I saw them in Vegas, I think it was.

Right before they broke up and I was blown away. They're so unflippant believable. It's insane. I'm sure you've seen it. You've seen them do Stairway to Heaven. It's beyond. Isn't that phenomenal? It's beyond. And I also did what they told me is they started off as a glorified Led Zeppelin cover band. Right. Yeah, exactly. They were.

So yeah, that's on a par with Prince playing the guitar solo on My Guitar Gently Weeps. That's phenomenal. I couldn't agree. So if you're listeners, so YouTube, Hart Kennedy Center, Stairway to Heaven.

Prince guitar solo for the George Harrison tribute, right? I'm why my guitar is the gently reeds. And my new one is Joni Mitchell at the Newport jazz. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, right with your girl, with Brandy, Brandy Carlisle. Yeah.

Absolutely. I'm not crazy. That's one of the most insane things ever, right? Yeah, the fact that she just has come back the way she has is absolutely a godsend. I mean, I couldn't be happier. And all the more credit to Brandy for really sort of...

pulling her up and pulling her out and getting her out. And now she's unstoppable now. I cannot wait to see her on tour because she's one of those artists for me that I missed in my youth and frankly, not only missed, didn't understand. Like there was a time when I was like, Jody Mitchell?

Right. And for whatever reason, I missed it. And boy. Have you seen Brandy live? I have. She's spectacular. She's fantastic. Don't let anybody tell you there's not any great music around today because she completely encompasses it. Yeah.

And that's the great thing about a canon, that the songs mean different things at different times in your life. Absolutely. And they're more powerful the older you are and all of the years that the audience has put in listening to you and to hear the greats. Like Sinatra at the end singing was a lot different than singing in the 50s. It's like I said earlier, songs are keys to recall. They definitely are. And

we've all got, we've all got music that we just completely gravitate towards. I mean, I'm a jazz fanatic. I, that's pretty much all I listened to. And, um, you know, I, it's it, when I hear, when I hear something like, uh, Duke Ellington at Newport, you know, that's rock and roll, man. It's, it's just the most extraordinary invigorating kind of music I could possibly ever want to hear. Well,

Well, this has been so great. I could talk to you for a thousand hours about music, and we didn't even get to time. Well, I'm just up the road, Rob. I know. We need to do it. We really do. Solvang, I'll come get some pea soup. Is that with us? Oh, no. God, you don't want to do that. That's in Buelton, actually. I always get Buelton and Solvang mixed up. No, they're very, very different. Believe me. You're talking about pea soup Andersons. Yeah.

In the 70s, we would have met at Barney's Beanery on the Strip. And now it's Pea Soup Andersons and salt. Thank you, brother. This is great. Oh, man. This is why I podcast. This is why. People go, what are you doing? Why do you do a podcast? What made you think of having a podcast? This, that, what you just heard, that is why.

I just had a blast. I could have talked to him for another hour. What a legend. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. I'm going to go put on We Built This City, and then I'm going to put on fucking Mr. Roboto by Styx. And I'm telling you, I'm going to decide which one's better.

And then I'm going to do a palate cleanser with that song, The Bridge, that he was talking about. I need to get acquainted with that. All right. Just one more thing before we end today's episode. Let's check the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep.

Hey Rob, this is Chris in Norman, Oklahoma, right in the middle of college football country. My question deals with sports. I know you're a big Dodger fan and I know you love to play golf, but I'm curious, who are your other teams? Do you have a college football team? Are you an Ohio State fan from your time in Ohio? Or do you like UCLA? Or who might it be? Or maybe it's college basketball. Curious to hear what other sports you love. Enjoy the podcast and I've always enjoyed your career. Thanks.

Oh, hey, thanks for checking in. I believe I spent a little time in Norman, Oklahoma when I was doing the Outsiders in Tulsa many, many years ago. So yeah, I definitely was an Ohio State fan growing up. I still follow Ohio State. So that would probably be my college football team. In basketball, it's the Lakers. You know, I mean, I'm a diehard Laker fan, always have been, had four seats in

For the Showtime era, really, really fortunate to have seen that up close and personal. I love Australian rules football, little footy, kind of a Magpies fan. It's an obscure one. I love all sports. I love Formula One. I mean, there really isn't a sport that I don't watch. Hockey, I also like. I like the original, you know, any of the old school hockey teams are the ones I root for.

And that's it. That's kind of... Oh, and in the NFL, because LA didn't have a team for so long, I kind of spread out my fandom amongst various franchises. But I'm glad the Rams are back and I'm rooting for them as well. Thanks for the question. And thanks, you guys. Thanks for listening, as always. Don't forget to subscribe and tell a friend about what we're doing here on Literally.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Nick Liao. With help from associate producer Sarah Begar. Research by Alyssa Grawl. Editing by Jerron Ferguson. Engineering and mixing by Rich Garcia. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and myself for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Special thanks to Hidden City Studios.

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally with Rob Lowe. All set for your flight? Yep, I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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