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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. It's been about 24 hours since I dropped a breaking news podcast after Joe Biden announced that he was exiting the 2024 presidential race and was endorsing his vice president and running mate Kamala Harris.
I broke it all down with political strategist Steve Schmidt, who argued that there should be an open process to nominate Kamala Harris, a sort of mini primary, so that it wouldn't look like some sort of coronation. But within 24 hours, the entire Democratic Party has pretty much rallied around Harris. I'm talking about the Clintons, Elizabeth Warren, the Congressional Black Caucus.
plus the people who are in the strongest position to challenge her, like Governor Roy Cooper of North Carolina, Governor Gavin Newsom of California, and Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan. It looks like Kamala Harris will be the Democratic nominee, and those who could have challenged her are now lining up to be her VP. I guess nobody wants to be the skunk, and it might hurt you when you're trying again in 2032?
I know that's a long time from now. So to make the case for the Harris candidacy and why there does not need to be an open primary, I brought in one of her fiercest supporters, Karen Finney, who actually made the case directly to Joe Biden to add her to the ticket in 2020. Karen, thanks so much for joining the show. I want to just start with the basics. Why would Kamala Harris be a good candidate? Well,
Well, I think she is going to prove to the American people over the next several weeks that she is not only a great candidate, but would make a great president. And let me just take a quick moment to say thank you to President Biden. I know there was a lot of just love and gratitude in our party for him in this moment. He made a very selfless decision and obviously a very difficult one. But he said...
from the beginning that he wanted to be a bridge. And I think she represents that. Most importantly, though, she's been a governing partner to President Joe Biden from the beginning. And you may remember when we started, we were all
still in our homes. It was COVID. So they worked together to get us out of COVID, to get shots in our arms, to get money in people's pockets and out the door into communities. And again, she's proven herself on both the national stage and the international stage. She has relationships with over 150 world leaders. So there'll be some continuity in a moment where there is some uncertainty in the world.
She has helped, she's been at the president's side and helped to pass some of the most critical pieces of legislation like the Infrastructure Act. And, you know, she also both as vice president, as a senator, as attorney general,
has worked on critical issues, including health care, including climate change and protecting our environment. And if you look at her career, this is one of the things that I am really excited about. And I was excited about I was excited to tell then Vice President Biden, talk with him about her, the work that she has done in
in particular to look out for the most vulnerable among us and frankly protect our families, working families. I always found it sort of interesting that while
You know, on the surface, you might think and they did have somewhat different backgrounds. They both grew up in of their generations, middle class backgrounds. I mean, he always talked about growing up in Scranton and she grew up with a single mom raising she and her sister. And I grew up with a single mom. So I know a little bit about that sort of middle class background.
And so, you know, her values, I think, are very much in line with American values. And so I think this is going to be an exciting, very quick hundred days. Yeah, seriously. Well, she certainly has the resume. She was the attorney general of California. She was a senator. She knows what it's like.
To be the president, I think by way of just being there and taking on a lot of those roles, you know, she went to the Munich Security Council and gave a speech. She knows a lot of the world leaders. I think there is no doubt about that. If there's anyone who has foreign policy experience, it's probably her if you were going to compare her to some of the governors who may have been eyeing that role or still are. But there is the whole thing about should she lean into Joe Biden's record? I mean, there's...
undoubtedly some baggage on inflation and immigration. And, you know, his approval rating is, I think, at like 35 percent. Hers is only slightly better. And even now you're already hearing Republicans like accusing her of being a part of some sort of cover up on Biden's health or condition. How do you think she should handle that? Well, it's interesting. They were trying out those talking points last week at the Republican convention. So it was good to get a preview of
what they might say if she were to become the nominee. Look, I think a couple of things, and this is always a challenge when we've seen vice presidents run after the fact. She will have to figure out how she wants to talk about the places where she might have had disagreements with the president. I mean, we know, for example, behind the scenes, she's been one of the advocates around changing the classification of marijuana.
We know that with regard to student loan debt. - Which Biden came around on basically, right? - Yes, absolutely. So we know there have been places where, you know, she maybe was in a slightly different place and was, you know, kind of pushing for a different position.
But I think largely the platform is the platform, frankly, at this point of the party. So I don't think you're going to see a lot of big changes. And again, she'll have to outline over the next 100 days places where she might deviate. I mean, obviously, I think on the core issues...
Just as an economic example, I don't think you're going to hear her say all of a sudden she believes in trickle-down economics. I think you're going to hear her continue to say it's the middle out and the bottom up. And we are seeing inflation has come down somewhat. I hope for
all of our sakes, that continues. And certainly with regard to immigration, remember she was the governor of, I'm sorry, the attorney general of a border state. And so again, has some different experiences with the issue, both at a state level. We've seen President Biden, he has announced several actions which
have both on the one hand brought the number of border crossings down, but also looking for, again, humane ways that we can help people who are already here. And I just want to say on many of these issues, the issue landscape does not change. What polling around most of the research I've seen around immigration reform says is
is that people do want to be tough at the border, but they want humane reform. They don't want a mass deportation where you're rounding people up and possibly separating families. And so I think she's going to talk about immigration reform in a similar way. She certainly, again, the contrast with Donald Trump, who says he's going to do a mass deportation,
you know, again, people are going to be able to contrast how she would do it versus what he's saying he would do. And is she saying we'll close off the border or what is what exactly? I mean, again, I think you're likely to. That is what I was saying. I think you're going to hear she's going to have to begin to articulate places where she might deviate. But again, the fundamental policy of humane immigration reform. And don't forget,
It is still the case that Republicans walked away from what would have been the toughest bill we would have ever had. And and and that remained that fact remains true. And so, again, she may.
Talk about me from her own time in the Senate and obviously her time as vice president. Talk about what her vision of humane immigration reform and comprehensive immigration reform looks like. Assuming she cinches the nomination, I don't want to be presumptuous. You know, she will have to, again, start to articulate where she might differ from what the current.
the Biden-Harris administration has done to what the Harris administration would do. Let's talk about 2020. She did not run a great campaign, right? I mean, she came in basically last. How do we know that this campaign will not be like the 2020 campaign? Well, I think we can all say we are different people today than we were in 2020. I know I am in the same way. We were talking about Joe Biden and Donald Trump. And look,
look, there's a world. I mean, she has now been part of a national campaign, certainly in the general election in 2020. She's also gone through a midterm election cycle where let's remember she was very confident
critical to Democrats' success. I mean, both campaigning on behalf of candidates and the way that she helped to elevate issues around the overturning, the Dobbs decision and the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And again, she's been a governing partner for three and a half years. So she's not the same person. And I guess, you know, the other thing Tara would say is think about the fact that over the last year, she's been out on the campaign trail. And I think
The way she's conducted herself just in these last weeks, I think it's been, frankly, in a very tough situation, pretty flawless in terms of sort of navigating what I would say sort of threading lots of needles. So I think we've already started. We've already seen that she's a different campaigner than she was before.
I do agree. I think she has grown into the role of vice president. And I've got to say, I'm also impressed by how quickly her team has been able to whip delegates, hold down any sort of opposition. I mean, just last night, you had the New Hampshire delegation basically saying she's our nominee, right? That's a big deal. Well, and the ASDC, the Association of Democratic State Party Chairs. I mean, that was huge because those are the folks who are doing the work
having been the comms director of the DNC, I can tell you those state party chairs and they do the grassroots work of the party day in and day out. And to have their trust is huge. No question. Just to orchestrate what happened yesterday so quickly. I mean, it really had to happen within minutes, hours for all of those leaders and stakeholders to come out and endorse her.
essentially, to hold back? I think so. Yeah. Oh, it was incredible. But I think a lot of it was organic, to be perfectly honest. Really? Okay. So you didn't have like a team on the phone working it? I think over the last couple of weeks, here's what I would say. Conversations have been happening around the what if. And certainly groups and people have been sort of using that time to decide, okay, if she becomes a nominee,
Are we behind her or would we want somebody else? And so I think it's kind of normalized the idea a little bit. So I think it was, again, look, it was a combination of, yeah, sure, there was some effort to, especially around, remember the delegates technically still have to vote, but to get an informal kind of whip count, if you will, last night and again today, that's ongoing. Yeah, there's been some work around that. And she obviously was on the phone herself
having those conversations with people doing the work. I mean, she said in her statement, she's trying to earn this. She's it's,
So I think there's a couple of things. One, you're seeing a lot of groups come out and they're excited. And it's been fun to see actually on social media, particularly with younger people, different ways that people are creating TikTok videos. I've seen some great stuff. Yeah, it's organic. Yeah. So that's been fun to see. And I'll just mention you, Tara. So I'm part of a group called Women with Black Women. And we came together.
initially in 2020 after she was announced. And I would tell you that in 2020, about the biggest number we had on our call, it's a Sunday night call we do, it was about 5,000.
And over the last three years, we have like several hundred sometime during the midterms, more than that. Last night on our call, we had 44,000 people and we were $1.5 million in three hours. So that's completely organic money.
you know, as I say, for most of the last couple of years, it's been a few hundred, you know, maybe 500 here and there. So to go from that to 44,000, it's me that there is real sincere organic excitement out there. Yeah. How is the whip count going? From what I
can tell. I mean, it's hard because, you know, states are, some are saying and some aren't, but it seems to be moving along at a pretty good clip. I've seen a couple more states announce their full support. So as I mentioned, technically they're still going to have to vote, but I suspect by the end of today, maybe tomorrow, we'll have a pretty good sense of, you
how many delegates she has or would have. Yeah, I mean, there is some anxiety within the party about the fact that she is polling around the same as Trump.
It's not like she's doing substantially better than Biden was doing. She's in within the margin of error. How do you get people over their fears? Again, I guess that's part of why I point to just the organic excitement that we've seen. I believe the campaign has raised, what, 50 million was the last count I saw? Yeah, overnight. Yeah. It's crazy. And look, what I've seen is certainly internally, I've seen much better, higher numbers for her in terms of support among the Democratic Party base, young people.
young voters, Black and Brown voters. And by the way, who, let's be honest,
in a lot of these public polls, you might have a sample size of 100 people, only 50 are Black. So seeing, you know, again, some internal data that looks a little different. Do you think she takes the gains that Trump is making with Black voters? I do, actually. I think Black voters are, I mean, I will tell you that tonight there is going to be a call Black men for Kamala Harris. I think Black men are as excited as Black women. I think they, and I
I will tell you that I think Trump is going to make a huge mistake here.
I think he's going to overstep. He's not going to be. He's already started attacking her with the usual tropes we see against women and people of color making fun of her laugh and trying to other her. And I think it's going to backlash. I think it's going to backlash with those suburban women that he's trying to win over. And I think it's going to backlash with a lot of folks in the black community who are going to say, you don't need to do that. You don't need to attack women.
her like that. So, yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of excitement for her that I just don't think he can tap into. Yeah, I've heard this from longtime advisors of Trump that they do think he will definitely fumble when dealing with an African-American woman. He just won't be able to help himself. Yeah, that he'll say something and it will come off just terribly. He just won't know how to manage it. I mean, can I go
out just even when he says poisoning the blood, what a lot of people don't realize that actually comes from Jim Crow. It's something that the Nazis, you know, when they came and studied Jim Crow before they put into place their regime. And it's about the one drop rule that if you have one drop of black blood, you're black. And they would talk about poisoning the blood.
Now, not everybody knows that, but there are lots of folks who do. And so some of this is going to start to take just a different tone. It's going to hit people's ears a little differently. And again, we've looked at how he treated women. I mean, gosh, Megyn Kelly. I mean, it's not just, you know, Democratic women, but he's...
tends to get outraged when a woman questions him or is sort of he's having to compete. I think this week on CNN, you may have mentioned that the party can't pass over a woman of color to be the standard bearer, to be the nominee. Do you agree with that? Do you think that's part of the reasoning why there can be no one but Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket?
A couple of things. Number one, she's the sitting vice president. And I would say that if it was a man that we were talking about, the person who is the sitting vice president who has been in the job and has been the governing partner navigating the last three and a half years as we've come out of COVID has more experience than, as you just mentioned, any governor that's been mentioned or a member of Congress that's been mentioned.
And certainly as a black woman. So I think it's a both and not an either or. So both things are true. She's the sitting vice president. And as a black woman, the suggestions that were being raised, I think some folks were not recognizing how
of color were hearing that as, wait a second, she's been in the job. She's doing the job. And you're going to say that someone with less experience might be a better pick. But again, it looks like the party agrees and agrees that she's the right person. And like I said, I'm excited. I'm happy to see the excitement because as we've been talking about this whole year,
I mean, this just shakes everything up, you know, and in terms of her ability to shift the argument to Donald Trump in terms of youth,
And and the future versus now we're going to talk about Trump's age and now maybe we'll talk about his fitness for office and some of the ramblings of his commentary. Right. Yeah, she's definitely a stronger messenger, I would say. She's a stronger communicator. That's probably why Trump seems to be reluctant to debate her in September.
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How should people look at this? Why should they not think that this is some sort of coronation? So a couple of things. Number one, we had a primary process and 14 million people came out and voted. In some instances, it said Biden-Harris on the ballot. In some instances, it may have said Biden, but I think people knew they were voting for the Biden-Harris ticket.
And that was that is our Democratic Party process from that primary process. The number of delegates were allocated. People ran to be those delegates. And what that means is those delegates are representing their communities and they're now saying, OK, yes, we pledge our support to her.
And so we've been through a process. There will still be a vote of the delegates. And at the end of the day, the real vote that matters most of all is on Election Day in November, which obviously it's more than just a day, as we know. But the point is, the November election is the opportunity for the country to say yes or no. This is the person that I trust to lead us. Well, at the end of the day, it's a matter of
who's on the ticket, right? It really isn't settled yet. Although it does seem like it has been. I mean, is there any possibility there's some sort of floor fight? It doesn't seem likely, but who, you know, I feel like ever in the last eight years, I've learned like we have to stop thinking we know what's going to happen and just try to do the best we can to help people understand what is happening. And by that, I mean,
I don't expect so, but it could happen. Someone could decide today that they want to get in and try to make their case. If there was someone doing that, who are you eyeing right now? Like who is someone, I know Joe Manchin said last night that he was looking at it, but then back down. I mean, is there anyone else you're sort of looking at? You're like, hey, side eye. Dean Phillips was kind of quite, you know, last night, Dean Phillips said, no, he's on board. I heard maybe Marianne
No, I don't think there's anybody who would mount a serious challenge. But here's the thing, though, that I think is important. We have a process. You know, each party, I believe it's in our constitution, gets to decide their own. We have our process. We're as Democrats, if we're happy with how the process went.
the American people get the ultimate vote and the ultimate decider. So I don't think anybody else will come forward. And I hope America is excited about the possibility of Kamala Harris being president. What's her core campaign message? I know you said they're still working it out, but what would you say? I mean, I think
her core campaign message remains very much the same because again, the issue landscapes is still, I mean, women's reproductive freedom is still on the line. That did not change. If you live in a state where you're afraid of a national abortion, the possibility of a national abortion ban is
That doesn't change whether it's Kamala Harris or Joe Biden at the top of the ticket. If you care about climate change, if you care about the economy and an economic philosophy that says trickle-down economics doesn't work,
that doesn't really change. I mean, so I don't, I think the core values and the policies and the issues, I don't think there'll be a lot of change in terms of the vision for how America moves forward and how we protect our democracy and frankly, strengthen our democracy. In the 2020 election, it was for the people because, and I had this conversation with her. I mean, she talked about how like, that is the first thing you say when you are a,
you know, a prosecutor, you say, you know, Kamala Harris for the people, right? You were representing for the people. I think that would, that still works because it is about, ultimately it's about this country and the direct, and there really are two very different visions of,
of how we move forward. I've heard people say it's like prosecutor versus criminal. People are already using that contrast. Yeah, I think that's fine. I want people to know there's more to her record as a prosecutor than we got to talk about in 2020 and her record on criminal justice reform. Are you joining the campaign, Karen? I should have asked you that.
haven't been asked to. I mean, you know, I've got my day job at CNN and they've been keep, as you know, they've kept us all pretty busy in the last few days. I got a memo from Biden World yesterday from the Biden campaign, and it seems like they're all ready to move on over to Kamala. They're like, we're ready to support whatever candidate she may be.
So it seems like they're all ready. Is there anything stopping them? Is it just like a smooth process? How does it work? Does the money move over? I think we're all just trying to figure out, does she start from scratch or how does this all happen? No. So financially, because it's the Biden-Harris campaign, and I believe the way the campaign finance forms have been drafted, all those funds go to Harris for president pretty seamlessly. Okay.
And then with regard to the staff, you know, obviously it's up to them. I think, you know, people are excited to she's as you know, she's going up to Delaware today to meet with the campaign. I would you know, it's been a rough campaign.
several weeks for that team. So I think in part to help energize people, but she, you know, they'll have to make some decisions about whether or not, you know, do you make some changes and, you know, because here's the thing, Taryn, you and I have talked about this a little bit.
Again, core issues, very much similar vision, very similar. But we know as a woman and as a and I know from working on the campaign, it is still the hardest, highest glass ceiling. And as a woman of color,
you know, there are differences in how you run as a candidate than if you are a white man. And so thinking through what does that strategy look like? What do the attacks look like? You know, sort of there's going to have to be a bit of shifting of strategy, obviously. So all those things are things that I'm sure people have spent the last 24 hours diving into
Me too. The thing about Kamala, though, the thing that Washington insiders know this is that she really doesn't have a team that has come along with her throughout her time since she was in the Senate or even in the Attorney General's office. There's been a high staff turnover. It's not like Steve Ruschetti and Mike Donilon who have been with Joe Biden through his entire career. A lot of politicians have
one or two aides that have been with them forever, right? I can't think of anyone that would naturally be her chief of staff for the campaign or like her campaign manager, for example. Who would be that person? You know, we'll see. I mean, look, she's got a, obviously she has a team in the White House that is still running the office of the vice president. She's got a campaign team.
And, you know, we'll have to see if, you know, if there are. And I'll tell you what's been interesting to me that I've learned about her in the last several years. There is a really tight group of alumni, people who have like people who worked for her in when she was D.A. and A.G. who still live in California, who, you know, maybe worked in her California office when she was in the Senate but didn't want to come to Washington. So there are people there actually are people who love her and, you
you know, who have worked for her and who are still trying to help her from the outside. We'll see if any of those folks end up going inside. And, you know, again, this is all of the things, the conversations and decisions that have to get made in a very short time.
time frame uh not to mention and a convention and uh it's wild it is i mean you know if we weren't living through it i wouldn't believe it because it's you know we've never seen anything like this but i think it's exciting yeah i think you're right about needing to have some sort of shake up at the top at the very least because you are you do have a totally different candidate and they want to have people that they're comfortable with too i mean like that's the fact yeah
But also she may put in play. I mean, you know, one of the things that they'll have to take a look at is with her at the top of the ticket. How does that shift the electorate? Are there different parts of the electorate that are available to her as at the top of the ticket that may not have been or there? Yeah. You know, so they're going to have to make a lot of those assessments very quickly. Like the youth vote, which Biden was struggling with and weirdly Trump was making gains with. Maybe she's able to take back some of those gains.
Yeah, let's hope. I hope so. You've seen some polling. Like, how is she doing in the battleground states? Is she doing better than Trump? Well, you know, certainly we've seen some public polling over the last several weeks. Look, I think it's going to take a couple of weeks. I will have any confidence in the polls because, you know, I think she gets an initial bump because people are excited and.
And as people absorb it and think about it and get to see her, because now remember, people are going to look at her when she's on the campaign trail, not as the VP, but as the top of the ticket. And so I think it'll take a couple weeks of people seeing her at the top of the ticket in that role and kind of seeing she and trying
Trump, I mean, you know, kind of how that, what does that back, that split screen look like, you know, as a way to,
how they feel about it. So I'm sure we'll get some early polling, but personally, I think it'll take a couple weeks before I'll have a lot of confidence in what we're seeing. Who do you think she should pick as her vice president? Should it be an identity play or should it be a geographical play? I think she should pick someone and she knows as well as anyone who will be a governing partner, someone who she has a rapport with, who she feels like she can trust. I mean, I think one of the most important roles that a vice president has
can play is to be someone who will tell you the truth. Because as we know, presidents, you know, they are in a bubble and you need to have people who will tell you what they really think. And again, you know, we've seen this time and again. I mean, think about as vice president, she is still probably not today, but she would still go to the grocery store because she cooks dinner on Sunday nights, which means, you
Certainly President Biden, I know he talks to his grandkids, but again, you're engaging in the world a little differently because you don't have the same level of bubble around you. So I hope she picks one who is going to be that for her. But you have to think about who's going to bring in more voters, obviously. Right. I don't think we know who's going to. I mean, there's different assumptions about different people in terms of voters.
What states they're popular in or not. Right. I think whoever she picks, again, it'll be someone who we're going to introduce to the American people very quickly, maybe reintroduce to the American people very quickly, you know, and we're off to the races. What?
I think most people think political strategists are thinking right now is that she would probably be best to choose someone, a popular leader from a battleground state, right? So that she could win Pennsylvania or Michigan, two states that you pretty much need to win as a Democrat to hold onto the blue wall or Wisconsin. That might mean someone like Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, although some people say, could America really vote for two women, you know, and then
You know, maybe Tim Ryan of Ohio. You know, who knows, though? Another person whose name has been tossed around is Mark Kelly of Arizona. He's a senator, astronaut, pilot. There's a feeling like they have to match Kamala with a white man, essentially, like Andy Beshear of Kentucky, maybe with some Southern roots. There's always like the feeling of, I guess, balance to the ticket, if you want to say that. Identity balance, geographical balance, everything.
Do you think that will matter to her? You know what I think matters? And I saw this in polling that I did for the organization Higher Heights in 2020. I think people like the idea of two people who bring different lived experiences that sort of balance each other out in that way.
So, and this is the other thing I would say, as people are sort of gaming out some of these names, as a strategy, you know, part of the way you also have to think about it is, okay, so if you pick a governor, who's the lieutenant governor? And do you lose the, you know, so then do you lose the governor's mansion? If you pick a senator, who's the red state? And right, so there's a whole, it's a three-dimensional chess.
And ultimately, you know, when all the vetting is done and all is said and done, that's why I say it's got to be someone that you that she trusts, right?
Because, again, I think it will help to have someone who maybe has a they may not be from the Midwest, but they may have a background that resonates, you know, in the Midwest. Again, and I say that only because she's from California. She has a different lived experience of someone who brings something a little different to the table. Yeah, we'll see what she does. I mean, is there anyone that you've heard before?
whose name has been passed around that you're like, oh, she's actually pretty close with them or she respects them that maybe we're not even thinking of? You know, I've been sort of trying to think of who's the out of the box person that we're not thinking of. Is it a business person? Is it a philanthropist? I suspect that we won't get that kind of pick, but I have been trying to wreck my brain for, you know, who that might be. But
So far, I haven't come up with any creative ideas. We are in some fascinating times right now. Karen, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's always great to have a conversation with you. And every day will be another news cycle. Right, news bonanza. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm in shock. This morning I woke up, she raised $46 million overnight. Like that is an energized party. I kind of have this feeling there would be an excitement of a shiny new toy. I think the party just felt...
so dragged down by Joe Biden. So we'll see if it carries on and if the polls show that she's a formidable challenger. I know that when she first launched her campaign before it went south in 2020, that the Republicans were really nervous about her. People close to Trump saw her as formidable. If she can bring that person back, like that woman that was
really just has force and purpose and really great communication skills when she announced her candidacy. I mean, she could be a really formidable challenger. And I think they know that. Yeah, 100 percent. Look, I think there's no it's make no mistake that Donald Trump said earlier today that he thought the debate instead of being on ABC should be on Fox.
you know, makes me think he's getting nervous. So, so let's see if that's the beginning of his, him trying to get out of doing a debate altogether. We shall see. All right. Thanks so much, Karen. All right. Take care.
That was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, please go to puck.news slash Tara dash Palmieri and sign up for my newsletter, The Best and the Brightest. You can use the discount code Tara20. I'll be back tomorrow. Breaking news, anything can happen.
