Former Congressman Jody Hice On A Return To "Regular Order" 54:14

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Well, welcome to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz. And thank you so much for giving us part of your day to have this interesting discussion. I'm really excited about this. We've got a former colleague of mine. His name is Jody Heiss. He was Congressman of the United States.

in Georgia. And you know what? A super good guy. So I served in Congress a little over eight years and you interact with people and you know what? It is a good cross section of America. And I'm not saying based on party lines, I'm just saying as you interact with people, you find people with all kinds of backgrounds. And I think that's what our founders envisioned, right? They envisioned a time of

where America would be represented. And it's hard because our population is grown, right? Average member of Congress represents about 800,000 people. And every 10 years, you go back, look at the census, re-divvy it up.

And consequently, you meet people from all walks of life. And we're going to have a conversation with Jody Heiss. Jody, he's just a wonderful, wonderful human being. And he wrote a book about his time in Congress. He recently left Congress. And I think it'll be a good discussion about what is working, what is not working. I think a lot of people are looking at Congress and saying, ah, this is so dysfunctional.

But there are things that are working and there are things that really aren't working. And so I want to have that discussion with Jody and the Congressman Heiss and get his perspective on that. We're going to talk a little bit about the news and then we're going to highlight the stupid because, you know, there's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere.

All right. I want to talk about the news here because news is volatile, right? There's always something that's going on with Trump or Biden. I think it's fascinating that with the new inflation numbers going back up, that the president Biden is going to try to argue who knows what. I mean, I think he's going to say, oh, it's Donald Trump's fault. The Trump tax cuts, this and that. And he'll probably, you know, probably won't be saying that, you know, Bidenomics is working well.

There's nothing that I think they can point to, but there's a couple other factors of things going on in the economy that I don't hear a lot of the talking head analysis going through. And I want to discuss that. First of all is our national debt.

we have some $34 trillion in debt. If you were to spend a million dollars a day, every day, it would take you almost 3000 years to get to 1 trillion. Now we have $34 trillion in debt.

And the interest on that national debt is eclipsing the size and the amount of money that we are spending on our national defense. We are closing in. It'll take a little while to get there, unfortunately. But we will spend close to a trillion dollars a year just paying interest on the debt that's been accumulated. That is a stunningly high number that has to be dealt with.

You know, every time we have a disaster, every time we have something happen, you know, we had this bridge collapse in Maryland. It was horrific. It was terrible.

But have you heard anybody in Washington, D.C., having a discussion about, look, this disaster happened. You know, it's terrible. We got to fix it so we can continue on with commerce. So instead, we're going to have to dismantle or maybe not spend money on this so we can fix that. We never have that discussion.

If that happened in a business or in a family, you'd make a tough decision and say, I'm sorry, we're not going to be able to do this because we got to do that. And then we never have a discussion about where we're going to cut money because we're always doing continuing resolutions and omnibuses. And there's always a promise, oh, we're going to cut a little bit. And then it never comes to fruition. Another factor, I think, on the economy and inflation is the fact that Americans are

post-COVID, had this insatiable desire to go out and do more things. And there was an assurance by President Biden and Kamala Harris that, oh, inflation is just transitory. It's not really happening. It'll come right down. It's going down. I think that gave people a lot of false hope that their own personal financial situation was going to rapidly improve.

And it hasn't. And so consequently, Americans have more than $1 trillion in credit card debt. Now, statistically, if you're listening to this podcast, you probably have some of this credit card debt. It's that pervasive. And when you're paying 20%, 22%, 24% interest, that is a stunningly high number. And it's not going to get better. It's not as if interest rates are going to come down.

And it's creating a financial burden on the economy that is just untenable. The other thing that we've got to talk about is how big and how pervasive this illegal immigration problem is. Because with illegal immigration, you can't pour millions and millions of people into the economy and

And then not expect there to be an effect on housing and on the just demand for basic services. You have big cities and in a lot of these Democrat run cities, big ones out there complaining that, oh, my goodness, we need millions of dollars in order to take care of this.

If you have nearly 10 million people here illegally, they got to live somewhere. And then we're surprised when the cost of rent goes up across the country. Of course, that's going to happen. This is basic economics. But guess what? They're going to need more than rent and they're going to need more than a place to live. They're going to need food.

food. They're going to need to get educated. They're going to want to get a job. They're going to want to do all of these things. And they're going to have health care. They're going to have babies. They're going to do all kinds of things that are very expensive. And guess who's going to pay for that? We're going to pay for that.

But it also, I think, has an effect on inflation. And that's one of the core problems. And so those are the types of things that I don't think you'll hear anybody talking about, but they really are going to be problematic. So that's just one of the things that's happening in the news. I do want to get on to stupid because, you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. ♪

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These types of positions just drive me nuts. But he said that America is a failed historical model and demanded the destruction of tradition, quote, at every junction. This is somebody who doesn't believe in America and is going to be in charge of diversity, socialization,

So instead of getting a job based on merit, they're going to be including people and hiring people based on their skin color. This is so totally polar opposite of what Martin Luther King was talking about. And the whole message, how they have embraced this with so much vigor is unbelievable. And I think it's just very offensive to a lot of people in this country. But to suggest that this...

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All right. So joining me, like sitting across from me, I'm so excited, is a good friend, somebody I got to know, as I mentioned, during my time in Congress. But Congressman Jody Heiss, thanks so much for joining us here on the podcast. Jason, I can't tell you how good it is to see you again and to be with you on this special occasion.

Yeah.

Yeah. Who came in? Remind me, who was there before you and who came in after? Paul Brown. Oh, yeah. Paul Brown. He decided to run for Senate. So we ended up with an open seat in Georgia's 10th district. And that opened the way for me to spend time.

wonderful years in Congress representing the 10th District of Georgia. And, you know, it's kind of the biggest honor and the biggest headache. You know how that is all wrapped up together. It's an incredible honor to serve in Congress. But boy, it's tough to move the needle. But we had a blast in the Oversight Committee. And I have so many incredible memories serving there with you. So who's serving in that seat now? James Comer. Oh, yeah. Yes. And he's replacing me. Yeah. Yeah. Replacing me. Mike.

Mike Collins is now representing the 10th District of Georgia and is doing a great job. We did a podcast with him. He turns out to be a pretty funny guy. Yeah, he is. He's pretty bold out there on X and the posts he puts up. Yeah, he does a great job on his posting. He's a lot of fun. He's got a good business background, and I'm glad he's in Congress. Yeah.

But let's go back to you here. Okay, tell me about this book. Like, what did you want to convey? Why did you write it, and what are people going to learn from it? Yeah, you know, this is one of those topics, to be very honest with you, Jason, was not majorly on my radar until I got to Congress. And even then...

It was not a major deal until COVID started coming. And then we started having, in oversight, hearings where the Democrats started pushing for election reform because of COVID. That became the big excuse that people are going to be afraid to go to the ballot boxes, are going to be unable to go to

And so, therefore, we need to send ballots to them and we need to do they just started coming out with a whole litany of election law changes that needed to take place. And it just became obvious that there was a strategic attempt here to change election laws and take it away from the states and to federalize it.

And so that started the process of election integrity being a major issue on my radar. And one thing led to another. And, of course, Georgia started becoming a major issue in this whole battle as well.

And so one thing just kind of led to another. And I ended up really leading the calls from the in Congress, from the perspective of Georgia in particular. But one thing just kind of led to another and it became a major issue. And in many regards, I kind of became the tip of the spear of that, at least from Georgia's perspective. Yeah, it really did. I mean, and to you can't.

overstate how the Democrats wanted to take advantage of this because... And they did. And they did. Well, and Nancy Pelosi helped lead this charge. I mean, the way it works in Congress, the speaker gets to reserve the first 10 bills. So every bill that you submit, you throw into the hopper, gets a number. And there are literally thousands of bills that get introduced, right? Right.

But if you want to understand what the speaker's priorities are, go look at H.R. one or H.R. two. These are they're signaling that, hey, I'm the speaker. I'm in control here. And this is where Nancy Pelosi put all of her chips. This is where it was all about power. Right. That's right. And at that point, both H.R. one and H.R. two were both election bills being pushed by Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Party. And they would have absolutely and in many regards, they did push.

Because although they did not get those bills passed in Congress, per se, to become law and federalize elections, they did utilize both COVID and the push for those two bills to change election laws across the country in various state legislatures. Yeah, they did. They really did. For me personally, I hate early voting. I think everybody should vote. We have a day. Same day. Yeah. Same place. Same information. Yeah.

And, yeah, does it take money? Yes. But the integrity and just the basic idea and concept of having to show an identification. How difficult is that? How many other places do you have to show identification to say that it's...

racist or that it's going to suppress the vote. I'm just not buying it. Yeah, I don't buy it at all either. And I mean, you go back to the Blue Ribbon Commission, even back in the days of Carter, well, not in the days of Carter, but in early 2000, the commission that he did, one of the issues that they came up with

was that mail-in ballots, which is part of their early voting, opened the doors for fraud. I mean, that was coming from Democrats at that point, and now all of a sudden, no, no, no, no, they push for more and more and more of this thing. But it's voter identification, it's the lack of clean voter rolls, it's the, you know, just one thing after another, the ballot harvesting, all these things must be closed. Let's talk about each of those. So I don't think a lot of people understand

When you say clean the voter rolls, Democrats look at it and say, oh, you're trying to exclude people from voting. But that's not what I believe. It's not what you believe, right? Explain what you think has to happen there. Yeah.

Yeah, look, what the end goal is, let's start there, is one legal vote cast and one legal vote counted. Right. That's where we're trying to get to. All right. So if you start at that end result and start going back from there, well, then you cannot know if you have a legal vote cast if you don't know that the one casting the vote is an eligible voter to cast a vote. So that's

We have to have clean as much as possible. And look, people move all the time. They die. They come and go. It's impossible to have 100 percent clean voter records, I suppose. And that's that's understandable. But as much as possible, the average state I saw an article last week, the average state is between eight and 18 percent inaccurate in their voter rolls, their registration files. So if we are starting now.

this game with anywhere from 8 to 18 percent inaccurate roles.

That's problematic potentially. And so we have to do a better job. Why is it that Amazon knows where you are and who you are and where you live, but our federal government doesn't? Why? I mean, from the post office to Amazon to the coroner's office. I mean, we can go down so many different places, know exactly who you are, where you are, where you move, when you move.

it's all out there. It is not a matter that these roles are impossible to keep relatively accurate. It's the lack of commitment to do so. Yeah, I think there's the lack of political will because I do think some people nefariously think there's an advantage to that. And look, I'm in a state where they say, oh, no, there's no way. It's impervious. You can't break the system. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's just...

The integrity of the ballot and the chain of custody is really important. And to let them fly out under the wind and just say, oh, well, they can just – I mean, why not just print it out at home on the internet and then just submit whatever you want? I mean, and the idea that these states are going to go – that they think that voter –

identification is wrong is just stunning to me. Yeah, it is. It is stunning to me as well. I mean, there is no, and this really goes to the title of the book, sacred trust, this whole treasure that we have in America for the voters, for the citizens of this country to, to determine who,

Where this country goes politically who represents us from the local level all the way to the federal level? This is a sacred trust that we have and a sacred trust that we must keep and maintain It is not to be taken flippantly. It is not something that should be carelessly handled the will of the people the voice of the people is is

is prominent in all of this. And look, it doesn't matter to me. The issue of election integrity is not an issue of who wins an election.

It is a matter of was the outcome of the election an accurate portrayal of the will of the people? That's all that matters. I may be disappointed that my candidate loses, but if it was a fair election, then I can go back next time, rally the troops, and try to do a better job to convince people to vote differently. But if the election was skewed –

one way or the other, then we have a major problem and the voice of the people is tossed out the door. I do some work with the Heritage Foundation and I emceed an event that they had about the weaponization of government.

And there was a segment there talking about the integrity of the vote. Hans von Spasskowski, I can never pronounce his name right, who's really an expert in this area. They talked about how they've cataloged now. There were something like 700 times in recent history where there was a legitimate vote.

So, you know, we talk a lot about, oh, you know, yeah, my vote, but is it really going to make a difference? But this catalog 700 times where there was, you know, some of these races decided by coin flips. Yeah, I saw that in North Carolina. Yeah. Several months ago. So, you know, the integrity of the vote is imperative and people getting out and vote. I want as many people to vote as possible, but I want them to be legal, lawful citizens themselves.

And I'm stunned that the Democrats have taken a position. They took it in New York. They've taken it in California. They've taken it in Minnesota, where for some offices...

You don't have to be a United States citizen. And I think that's partly where the Democrats are trying to go with this. I think it's absolutely where they're trying to go. And that's why we have open borders. They think eventually. And most of those people coming across right now are obviously not going to vote. But they look long term. They look at the big picture and they...

eventually won't these... : They'll change the census. : They will. They will change the census. And you and I both know we've been through the battles with them trying to work through this census and change both congressional districts and, you know, they stack them, all this kind of stuff. I mean, there's a whole... that's a whole other issue there. But yeah, the point of allowing non-citizens to vote

You talk about foreign interference in our election. When you have a political party now that is welcoming foreign non-citizens to come over here and vote and determine the direction this country is going, that is a serious problem that the American people need to be aware of. I think it was Minnesota where they're actually – even if you're a non-citizen, you can be a police officer.

I mean, the world is so upside down. It's upside down. Anyway, what else do you talk about in Sacred Trust? Is it all about voter integrity? It's not, is it? No, well, that is the theme that runs throughout the entire book. But it's really kind of broken up in three primary sections.

One, as you well know, I was formerly a pastor before coming to Congress. And so a lot of people ask me all the time, how in the world does a pastor end up in Congress? So I'll talk a little bit about the background, however, how that transition came about. And then there's a portion that deals with experiences in Congress. What was it like being in Congress? And then, of course, what was different for you? What was it?

you know when i got elected i had some expectations and thought it would be like this but what were your your starting point and then eight years later what was really different that you thought yeah that's a good question you know i was i was a pastor and i was a radio host prior to coming to congress so i was on about 400 stations daily and dealing with and while on the radio and this will set up pretty clearly one of the big aha moments when i got to congress while

While on the radio, I could rant and rave with the best of them. And Congress needs to do this. And they ought to do that. What are they doing passing this piece of junk and all this? And then I get to Congress. And I am one of them. And I realize that as a member of Congress, I am less than one quarter of one percent.

of the entire body and yet everybody from my district wanted me to go change Washington. Everybody from your district wanted you to go change Washington and you realize you get up here it is so difficult to move the needle. So difficult to move the needle and once it does pass the House then it's got to get past the Senate

And they usually mess it all up and change it completely. And then, you know, eventually it's just it's a mess and it's an extremely difficult process. So best moment, worst moment, things and not just a moment, but what does Congress do well and what does it not do well?

- You know, I think- - If you can name something. - Yeah, yeah, let me think. Can we take a break? Let me think through this. - We'll be right back. - In about an hour. But no, listen, one of the things that was surprising to me and a positive note is how the First Amendment is alive and well in Congress.

People are able to say pretty much anything they want to say, be it in hearings or on the floor or in meetings, wherever it may be. In many regards, I think the First Amendment is more alive and well in Washington than it is throughout the country. It's threatened everywhere else throughout the country. But in the halls of Congress,

You can lay it on the line. And that was refreshing to me. As I alluded to a moment ago, the most disheartening thing, though, is how difficult it is to move the needle. And it just seems there is a machine driving us in the wrong direction in so many ways. And it's very difficult to stop. Do you think that's in part the process? I mean, one thing that I got so frustrated about is...

The entire eight and a half years I was there, we never once went through regular order. Oh, no. The budget, you know. Irregular order is the regular order. Yeah. I mean, I talk about this a lot since the 1972 Budget Act. There's only one time we actually did it start to finish in regular order. And voila, that's the one time Newt Gingrich was Speaker.

And Bill Clinton was president. That is the one time where the budget actually bounced. Yeah. And why we allow that not to regular order. Just that year's budget. Yeah. Not all the debt. But why we continue to operate outside of regular order, which is the way things are supposed to operate, why we continue to operate outside of that is it's really criminal. Why do you think it is? Why do you think that happened?

I've got a theory on it, but what do you think? Well, you've probably thought through it a lot more than I have. You know, I've just lived through it. This was one of those things to me when I got here that I didn't even know what regular order was. So trying to figure it all out. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, because everything is – there is no regular order. And I remember sitting on the floor many times and people start yelling from the floor, regular order, regular order.

They didn't know what they were saying. And I didn't know what they were saying either because I didn't know what regular order was because it's not part of regular protocol. It is a fabrication. It's something out there that is never adhered to. And so I've never seen regular order.

But my, you know, what regular order is, is the way it is supposed to function. But we don't function the way it's supposed to function. And as a result, we end up with CRs continually. For example, we never pass a budget. It's always a continuing resolution.

Because we forsake regular order to pass a budget. Yeah. And, you know, you watch those schoolhouse rock. You know, that was my initial introduction to regular order, how a bill becomes a law. But it's much more complicated than that because they're supposed to be 12 appropriations bills. They're supposed to go on the floor of the house and read every line. And every member can offer a striking amendment to try to get money out or amend something that.

And it's a long, drawn-out process. And my whole theory on this is the reason they don't get through all 12 is they don't want their members to take the votes. And that's always where it slows things down. And I remember there was one vote. It had to do with the flag in South Carolina. And...

The place just came to a screeching halt because they just tabled that. They couldn't move forward without taking this vote. And we never saw the appropriations bill move. That was the end of it. And I do remember when John Boehner became the Speaker of the House and he said, all right, we're going to try to do regular order. And, you know, it ends up being not true, but we're going to try. And, you know, I actually said to him,

What do you mean? Like, I've never seen it. That's how I was. I've never seen it. I don't know it. And so I actually got on the budget committee for a term because I wanted to understand the budget. And everything that you learn in business, you know, I was 16 years in the local business community. Everything you learn in business and, you know...

the way accounting is supposed to happen, none of that happens in Congress. When you can print money, it's a totally different game. And I think this is one of the sad points because now we're $34 trillion in debt. Yeah, and another trillion about every six months. I mean, this is unsustainable.

And it is leading to a disaster if we don't get both regular order and get our financial house in order. More interest paid on that national debt than we're going to be spending on our national defense. It's just kind of criminal, and something's got to change. It's got to change. Something's going to change. But it's better that we make some changes beforehand before the change is a disaster. Yeah, yeah. What would you, if you could make the biggest change...

in Congress, what would that be? There's a couple of things, but one of the greatest struggles that I had, and it's a game, it's part of the game up here in Washington. I can't tell you how difficult it was to make certain votes because some of the things that, for example, you, in my case, fought for for decades,

or in a bill, but in the very same bill are things that I have been fighting against for decades. And here is this bill, it's like darn if you do, darn if you don't. If I vote for it, then I'm voting for stuff I hate. If I vote against it, I'm voting against stuff I'm for.

So, that kind of stuff, I think those kinds of games, I think, need to change. Absolutely, the change to get back to regular order has to happen. To me, it ought to be illegal in whatever capacity that means for Congress to continue to function outside the boundaries that it was designed to function. You know, the idea of a single subject bill,

It seems simple. That's what I'm talking about. You get a room full of constituents, room full of people from Georgia or Utah or wherever it might be. Everybody would say, yeah, that's what we should do. Never happened. Yeah.

It like never happens. They always think, oh, that bill is going to pass. We're going to throw a poison pill in there or we're going to be able to pass some stuff that we wouldn't be able to pass otherwise. But you can't keep having bills that have everything in it. I know. Two thousand pages. Two thousand pages. It comes out with less than 24 hours in your voting vote. And I mean, it pushes Nancy Pelosi's philosophy that you have to pass it to figure out what's in it.

And that is unfair to the American people. So we know, I mean, you and I can go on and on about the frustrations. Let's go back for a second. What does work there? I mean, I don't think America's failed. I still believe in America. I still think we're the greatest country on the face of the planet. And somehow, some way, we do keep moving forward. I think we're creating burdens on our kids that are just untenable and impossible. But

I also found some positive in it. I'm an optimist. You're a very optimistic person. What could you point to that says, "Hey, yeah, you know what? We're going to be okay." Jason, to me, the things that point to that go beyond Congress, and it goes back to the American people. For example, probably the most encouraging day that I had in eight years of Congress

was the National Day of Prayer when there were hundreds of thousands of people on the Washington Mall

And Franklin Graham was there. He was leading the charge. I got to walk with him for a while. But to see not only him and hundreds of thousands of people, but people all across this country continuing to pray for this country, that gives me enormous hope. I believe this country was founded not just politically. It was founded on certain biblical, spiritual principles that work.

And when we forsake those principles, we suffer the consequences. But when we abide by them, then everything seems to work together more beautifully. And I am encouraged that I believe now more than ever.

People across this country are concerned. They're waking up. They're engaging. They're praying. They're doing what they can from the local level all the way up to the federal. And that is reflective that, at least in my experience here, every single election cycle, there were more quality people who were being elected and walk in the halls of Congress than there was the term before. And

That trend continues to happen because the American people are engaging it. And that gives me tremendous hope and encouragement. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said. And I can tell it's coming from your heart because I think fortunately the way our government and the way our country is set up,

The answers aren't all coming out of Washington, D.C. We can't fix this with another trillion dollars or another piece of legislation. It's got to get beyond that. Nancy Pelosi, who is a speaker, used to say all the time, we're not one good tax increase away from prosperity. That's right. The prosperity, the goodness of America is found in the American people. It's found in homes and churches and family and communities everywhere.

And states are going to have to drive these. And we've got to fundamentally remember, fundamentally remember, government works for us. We the people. It's not the other way around. Even though Washington wants more control, they want more power, we just can't let them take it. I think one of the most underutilized amendments is the 10th Amendment, right? The idea that we're not supposed to do everything in Washington, D.C.,

And I wish there were more lawsuits, more uprising to say quit it, federal government. That's not your lane. Yeah. You know? That's what, 18 enumerated areas that the Constitution gives to the federal government. Everything else is reserved to the states and to the people. Yeah. But we're far beyond that. No, it's – try to find an area where the federal government isn't involved. Right. It's just like –

And that to me is one of the fundamental problems. I mean, the budget, the over, you know, extension of government, omnipresent and pervasive in every way. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Congressman Heiss right after this.

All right. I want to get to let's go back to Jody Heist. Let's go back to little Jody. Let's go back to I was born in because it's always fascinating to me. There are really good people in Congress and there's some people. Yeah, I got a good list of people that maybe are not there for the right reasons. But.

How you got here and how we're sitting here and we cross paths, it's always fascinating to me. But let's go back to I was born in and kind of walk us through your journey where you became, now you're a former congressman. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was born in Georgia, so I feel like these days one of the few that's native born and raised in Georgia. My mom grew up in a tenant farmer family down in middle Georgia. My dad grew up in the very poor, poverty stricken North Georgia mountains.

And they both met in Atlanta when they finally – they were old enough. They moved to home and they – or moved from home to Atlanta. They met each other in a boarding house. And that's how it got started, really, two very hardworking families but very poor working families from two different backgrounds, from tenant farmer to just –

perhaps hillbilly life is you know those two backgrounds and so it is from that but but my mom and dad they they were deeply uh in love with one another it's just my brother and I so it's just the two of us are you older or younger I'm the younger my brother's two and a half years older and we're still best of friends we meet together for breakfast every week but

And both our parents have passed on now. But we were blessed to have parents who love God, love family, worked hard, instilled those values in us. Dad ended up with self-employed construction companies. So by the time the shovel started,

Was able to be held in my hand. I was working for 75 cents an hour. And I thought, you know, 10 years old, not worth a thing out there. I couldn't even, I couldn't dig a hole. But dad had me a shovel working all day trying to dig this or whatever. So we grew up in that environment. And we were in church all the time as well as a reflection of that faith.

But how I got to Congress, I ended up being a pastor. Wait, wait. I'm not going to let you jump. Oh, okay. We're not skipping that. A podcast. We've got a little extra time. Okay, so...

You're 10 years old. You're digging what holes are one of the hardest things to do, especially in the summer. We only weigh 50 pounds. We're playing sports. Yeah, we I mean, were you out playing army men and throwing dirt clods like I was? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We lived out in the country. And so relatively is no longer the country where we grew up to Cab County. Back then, it was all dirt roads and all that kind of stuff.

So, yeah, we had a lot of time playing in the woods and all that sort of stuff. The kind of thing that a lot of kids are missing nowadays, right? Stuck on their phones. Yeah, I grew up hunting. And, you know, some of the greatest memories of my life, Dad coming to get us out of school early so we could go out in the woods and go hunting somewhere, you know. That's awesome. And, yeah, that kind of stuff was just common. So I grew up in that kind of environment. Okay, so you get to high school.

Did you go to college? Yeah, went to college, went to high school, played sports. I was involved in all the sports. Ended up, you know, I was just too small to go on to compete at collegiate level, but was very good before then. But, you know, so...

It was during that time, my early years in high school, that I felt a passion and a calling for ministry. And so that's really every major decision in my life at that point was directed towards that. I ended up going to Asbury College, which has been in the news a lot this past year. That's where I met my wife.

And in fact, I met her my last quarter there. Yeah. And so that was a wonderful blessing in my life. She's just remarkable. But we got married and then I went to seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, where I got my master's there. Then I got a doctorate.

from another school in Atlanta back. And so we were in ministry and that's what all I thought I would ever, ever do my entire life until. - Okay, so how do you wake up one day and say, "Hey, you know, honey,

I think I should run for Congress. Let's ruin our life. That is not the way. I've got a great idea. Let's ruin this thing. I mean, there had to have something. Yeah, there was. We actually, there were two battles, Jason, that came our way as a pastor that came to our church, both of which took on national attention. And I kind of got...

thrust out of the pulpit and into a national arena that I had never anticipated. One battle was with the ACLU, the other with the IRS.

And the first one with the ACLU involved the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. It so happened that our church put the Ten Commandments in our county seat courthouse. We had a number of county commissioners and local politicians that were part of our church family, so we did that. The ACLU sued, and that took on national attention, and I kind of got pushed out of the pulpit in that.

Well, out of that, a radio program started. The local radio said, would you give weekly updates, what's happening in that case, and blah, blah, blah. And we ended up on 400 stations every day when all was said and done. But that battle lasted two years. We finally lost the case in the federal court. The commandments had to come down. Then we refocused our attention to the state legislature and for another six years fought it in the state legislature.

And finally, I was honored to be there when Governor Nathan Deal invited me to his office as he signed a law that any nine-document historical display, which included the Ten Commandments, are now legal in any government building in the state of Georgia. And if there's a lawsuit, the state will fight it. So those commandments and the other documents went right back up in our county. They've gone up all over the state. But that pushed me into a national arena. The other battle involved the IRS.

And you may remember this. I fought for the removal, repeal of the Johnson Amendment while in Congress, which is an IRS code that basically says churches can be sued. They can lose their tax-exempt status if they preach or teach some sort of nebulous crossing of the political line. And so I ended up being one of 33 pastors across the country to challenge the Johnson Amendment.

And again, that took on national focus. ADF Alliance, Defending Freedom was our legal backdrop in that battle, and I kind of became the face of that as well.

Two battles came to us within the church. Both of them took on national focus, and both of them kind of pushed me into an arena I had never been in and never anticipated. But out of that, our representative stepped out, and people started saying, would you consider running? And one thing led to another. So that's how it all happened. And here you are now, the former member of Congress. Yeah. And I wasn't here three months, Jason. I bet it was three months.

And John Boehner was having ads run against me in my district. He got ticked off at a couple of votes I took. Everywhere I drove in the district, there were billboards everywhere. There were radio ads. Every time I turned on the radio, high stinks, you know, blah, blah. And that was three months after I'd been elected. And I was about ready to demand a recount. I was like, why am I here? I demand we recount these votes. Well, you got a lot of street cred knowing that Boehner is coming after you after 90 days on the job. True. That's true.

why'd you leave? Well, I actually ran for Secretary of State in Georgia. And because of the election issue. I forgot about that. Yeah. All this election issue and Georgia happened to become kind of exhibit B with the Democrats of all sorts of allegations of voter suppression and all this stuff that they hurled out there. And then we had all the issues in Georgia and our own Secretary of State. And I just felt like he needed to be challenged. And

So we went after it and ended up losing that race. And now I'm with the Family Research Council. It's all ended up good, but they're phenomenal. They're a great organization. Yeah. Great organization. Do a lot of good and fight some good battles along the way. That's for sure. All right. So in order to kind of understand a little bit, you even better. I mean, you've got this book, right? Sacred Trust. It's out. It's available. Yeah.

But I've got to ask you some rapid questions. All right. All right? I don't care how many sermons you've... All right. First concert you ever attended?

Oh, wow. See, now you're making me go back in the cobwebs. Oh, yeah. No, this goes back to the dirt roads of Georgia. Yeah. Yeah. I don't need the year. I just need the band, the group. Yeah, it was probably B.J. Thomas way back in the way. B.J. Thomas. Yeah. My mom was a huge B.J. Thomas fan. Yeah. I used to love B.J. Thomas. Yeah. What was your high school mascot?

Tuck or Tigers. Because there were a lot of Tigers in Georgia. Our nickname actually was the Farmers. It was the Tucker Farmers. Wherever we went to play a football game or whatever, the opposing team, Tucker Farmers, Tucker Farmers. But our real mascot, we were the Tigers. Yeah.

It always cracks me up how these schools come up with these mascots. Tigers, I guess that's available, right? There's a far cry between tigers and farmers. I haven't seen, you know, I see a lot of tigers out there, Tony the Tiger and Tiger, you know, I guess there's a lot of schools out there with the tiger mascot, but not a lot of tigers. Yeah, I tell people when I was on the football team, we were small, but we were slow. And you can appreciate that being a great ball player you were. Yeah.

Did you have a pet growing up? Oh, yeah. My first pet was named Me Too.

That's before the Me Too movement, right? Oh, yeah, it was. Actually, maybe we started it. But my brother, like I said, was a little over two years older than me, and he was always wanting to do something. And I was his little shadow saying, Me too, me too, me too. Yeah, he was a little dog. I don't know. He was a little corky or something like that. Big, some mutt. But, yeah, me too. All right. So if you could meet one person, say to your wife, you know, Hey, honey, guess what? We got a special guest.

Anybody in the history of time, set aside religious figures, okay? Anybody you're going to break bread with this person, dead or alive, have them over for dinner, who would that be? Yeah, there's a few of them. I would start with Ronald Reagan, though. He is one that I always, always wanted to meet and, of course, never had the opportunity. I did. I had a chance to meet him. Oh, wow. Yeah. I would have loved that. I got a great story for you at some point, but...

tremendous honor back in 1991, the week before I got married. And he came to Utah. I got to spend two days with him. And at the end, I asked for his autograph. And he pre-signs them on these little sticky notes. And he reached into his pocket. He pulled off this little stick because he doesn't like to do it. You know, we were walking out to the airplane that he was going to fly back in. And, you know, it'd just be hard. And

And so he handed me that. And then he took off his cufflinks and his tie clip, and he gave me those as well. Oh, my goodness. He didn't ask for it. He just did it. Wow. Yeah. So I have this nice thing at home with the...

tie clip, the cufflinks, the autograph. And then I got this picture taken with him. Then I went back to his office another, you know, month after that. And he signed the picture for me. Wow. So awesome. I was really inspired by President Reagan. And I'm in my early 20s. And so, oh, anyway, good choice. So Ronald Reagan, who else is on your list? You know, I

I go back to a lot of our founders. It's hard to kind of pinpoint one or two of them. Those individuals were remarkable to me, though. And, you know, I mean, obviously, you couldn't miss George Washington and all that he did. But you look at the Adams and the Jeffersons and the Franklins. I mean, just all those people were so far ahead.

They were just incredible people. So I would love to meet them. Garfield is one of the presidents. He is a fascinating figure. He's a fascinating figure. Of course, he was assassinated, but he was one of those individuals that everything I've ever read about him and read from him.

I don't think he didn't want to be. No, but he was so wise. It was like they couldn't figure out who the nominee was going to be, right? And they had gone through like 40 ballots. And finally somebody said, no, it's going to be you. And he's like, no, I don't want to do it. But they nominated him anyway. Anyways.

And I just love his writings. Frederick Douglass, another one I would love to be able to meet. So there's a host of them. It's hard to just say this one. All right. So it's going to be a picnic. It is going to be a picnic, yeah, absolutely. Big old barbecue at the Heises. All right. I understand that. Pineapple on pizza, yes or no? Pizza.

Well, pineapple on pizza. Oh, on pizza. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Give me all the give me all the. I love that reaction. No, it's it's one or the other. To me, pineapple does not belong on pizza. That's very good. Best advice you ever got.

It would have to, that would come out of church. It has to do with honesty. It has to do with personal integrity. No question. Be who you are. Yeah. Integrity is, it's just so core. And then the final question I have for you, who is your favorite oversight chairman from the state of Utah? Yeah.

Hey, listen, Jason, I will forever have the best of memories of serving with you and under you on oversight committee. Those were incredible. They were amazing experiences that we all had. It was crazy. And I remember even just right now, you holding up.

page after page after page of redacted stuff that these people had sent you. You would ask for information and they just send... Sometimes under subpoena. Yeah, under subpoena. Page after page after page. And they would send us these pages with blacked out. And you went after them. You went after them. And that was just an awesome experience. Well, thanks for your service there as well. That was really a lot of fun. And thanks for that answer because some of my friends I ask...

I think I asked John Ratcliffe once and he said, you know, I'm still undecided. As if there's ever been an oversight chairman from the state of Utah. But yeah, there were some good times and a lot of good people, a lot of laughs and

That ended up being a great committee. I mean, that entire committee had some incredible people and continues to do a great job. I mean, think about who was there with us, right? I mean, we had Ron DeSantis and Mark Meadows and Dre Gowdy. Jim Jordan. And Jim Jordan. And we was kind of a...

Kind of a group there, right? It was a group, man. It was so fun. Yeah, James Comer is now the chairman. He came in south, very bottom of the dais, right? He was just bottom of the heap because he had won that special election. Anyway, well, thanks for your service. And congratulations again. The book is Sacred Trust. It's Election Integrity and the Will of the People. It's by Congressman Jody Heiss.

And I think you'll really enjoy it because he's just a rock-solid human being. And his perspective, particularly on these issues, I think will be – for people who care about these types of issues, this looks like a great book. Well, thank you, Jason. And there is nothing –

You know, we have a lot of major, major issues in our country, no doubt. It's hard to pinpoint what's the most significant, but among them is election integrity. We have to protect that, and that's what this book's all about. So thank you. Again, I can't thank Congressman Jody Heiss enough for joining us. I appreciate you joining us on this podcast. I want to remind people.

that you can listen ad-free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to the show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. Hope you can rate this podcast, subscribe to it. We have another great guest coming up next week.

You can also go check out Fox News Podcast dot com. Fox News Podcast dot com. And you'll see a lot of good stuff out there. Ben Dominich has got a good one. And Will Kane's got his daily show out there. Trey Gowdy, Shannon Breen. There's a lot of good stuff out there. Again, if you can rate this podcast, we'd appreciate it. Again, thanks for joining us. Join us next week. I'm Jason Chaffetz. This has been Jason in the House.

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