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It's Sophia Franklin. You are listening to Sophia with an F and the F is for phenomenal. This podcast is rated F. I don't like the athlete.
I think maybe 2% of them are faithful and, you know, in that sense. See, I'm with you. I don't want a man who's adulated by a bunch of stranger women. I feel like she needs to be with, like, a world leader. That's who I would really love to see her with. She has just as much influence. Right. Any world leader. Right, right.
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Hi, everybody. Welcome to Sophia with an F. If you haven't already, subscribe. I'm recording from WTF Media Studios, and I'm here with the sister duo Chan and Lauren from Pop Apologist Podcasts.
We've already been talking for 45 minutes and covered everything top to bottom, but we're now going to redo it. Thank you guys so much for being here, by the way. We are so excited to be here. Thank you for having us on. Thank you. So fun. What do we jump into first? Like, I have so much stuff. Let's just start with Taylor Swift, though. Okay. You asked me if I was a Swiftie, and I said yes, and then I kind of took it back because—
What does that even mean? Like what constitutes is that? It's complicated. Being a Swifty is complicated. I like her music. I know some of her songs. Does that mean I'm a Swifty? It doesn't feel like you're a Swifty to me. I don't think so. I don't think you qualify.
Okay, fair. A Swifty's like diehard. Yeah, I mean, I think that a Swifty is diehard, but diehards come in all sorts of variations. Okay. So like there are diehards that have Tumblr accounts where they post new pictures of Taylor Swift or old pictures of her every day. Okay. And they have a constant Taylor feed. And it's that regardless of if she's on the heiress tour, regardless of if she's been in the news cycle at all, they're just everyday obsessed. And then
And then there are maybe Swifties who also have like a life and other interests. Okay. Like you guys. I would like to think we're in that category for sure. Yeah. Okay. This week, we're not. This week, it's kind of all we're talking about and thinking about. We just recorded like a deep dive on Maddie Healy and Taylor Swift. So it's all we're thinking about now. But most of the time, I would like to think that that is just one facet of my beautiful personality. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well –
Let's jump into the Maddie Healy thing because, okay, she dropped this album. When did she drop it? On Friday. See, at Swift, you wouldn't ask about that. Oh, my God. I know. Actually. So, actually, I guess I'm not part of the group, but I'm going to get there. I swear to God, I'm going to go home and study every song, all 31 of them and have them memorized. And she drops this album. There's a lot of, like, mixed reviews and feelings about it.
I just found out about Matty Healy today. I'm going to be real with you guys. In general? Today. Was it a body reaction when you saw his picture? Yes. I could tell just from the few pictures I saw, like, this is a very, like, tortured soul, I guess. You can just tell. I mean, you guys tell me. Like, she's talking about him in the album. Yeah. Like, the whole album. Well, we thought the album was going to be, like,
a discourse on her relationship with Joe Alwyn, who she's been dating for the past six years. We were expecting to get closure, if you will, from that. And what it turned out to be was an album where Joe is mentioned a few times. Okay, right. And she's actually talking about her like, situation-ship with Maddie Healy for 31 songs. Okay, or to any of her...
I like feel bad for Joe right now. I know. It's a little sad for the guy. So does he have any album that's like basically about him? Several. He has multiple. Okay. And he already got a ton of breakup songs on Midnights. I just don't think we knew that at the time. And those songs are excellent. If you measure it based on the number of songs –
He totally got his due. But given hindsight bias or recency bias, like we're just all floored that this is all about Maddie. So her relationship with Maddie was very brief and it like wasn't very public, right? It wasn't like this for sure relationship thing. Well, actually it was kind of – it was more of like a 10-year long relationship.
Will they won't they entanglement to use the words of Jada Pinkett Smith. But basically like they they were like acquainted in 2014 when she came out with her like album 1989 and they like were rumored to have hooked up then and then like kind of stayed close over the years. Obviously she dated Calvin Harris Tom Hiddleston Joe Alwyn and all and all of those guys and
And then it wasn't until 2023, last year, that they got together and were publicly like, we're dating, whatever. We're out. Okay. Yeah, so it was easy to think that this was just a short relationship because to us, we only saw those few photos of them walking together. There was very little about them in the media. But if you look back now, in retrospect, they've been, it seems like, on again, off again, at least with some sort of like...
meeting up hooking up I mean she wrote a song that's like basically a masturbation song about about him okay which song is it please well it has a really I'm afraid first of all I'm really afraid to speak ill of this album or anything about Taylor because I was a little critical I had some constructive criticism on our most recent episode and I basically feel like I have death threats like okay I feel like the Swifties the hardcore Swifties these are
are not happy with me. Yeah. But anyway, I don't know that this is the most sophisticated track song. It's called Guilty as Sin. Guilty as Sin. Yeah. And it's very sexual in nature, this song. It's like a solo sexual experience. Okay. That she's having. That she's having. Did you guys get turned on listening to it? Definitely. Okay. Absolutely. I mean, the whole album is a turn on. Okay. Because I think Mattie Healy is really hot despite being problematic. Yeah.
And I mean, the problematic is kind of hot. And I don't want to say that. And I hate saying that. And now that I'm older and wiser, like I will never chase that. Yeah.
But like there's something attractive about it. I mean, there's something that turns you on about it. And that's just that is what it is. That's biology or something. It's human nature. Yeah. That breakup, we don't really know that much about it. Only just things that we've heard in this album. Which I feel like is the whole thing. We know everything now since the album's released. I need a breakdown.
So he ghosted her. He just fully ghosted her. This is like for real. Like how much time do you guys spend like – like you guys are like journalists. I told Lauren today, I was like, I think my brain, whether I like it or not, is spending 85% of its like processing power thinking about Taylor Swift. Whether I'm trying to think about her or not, it's just what my brain is doing. You know what? There are worse things. True. Trust me. I spend a lot of my time thinking about shit that is way worse than Taylor Swift and I wish it was that.
So he ghosted her. Yeah, so it seemed like they had this like just very fraught, very sexually alive, you know, mutual fantasy of each other. But they would always be in other relationships and like they would write songs for each other and perform them. And like he wrote like a few bangers that seemed to be about her. Yeah.
So they finally get together, right? After she's been with Joe for six years. And kind of a guy who's like, it seems like ostensibly, given what we know now, a nice enough guy. It just didn't really work out. So then she's plunged into the arms of Maddie Healy. And it's finally, she says on stage at one of her concerts when this is going on, she says, my life finally, it feels like it makes sense. And she's so happy. She's like, I've never been happier on all of my life.
On all fronts. Like, fastest of my life. Everything. Why do I have chills right now? And I'm not even a swift, like, what is happening? Now I'm, like, in it. Now I get it. Okay, keep, tell me more, do me more. So it's, so, and she talks in the song called But Daddy I Love Him about the chaos and revelry of being in a relationship with Maddie Healy. She just talks about just how incredible and how happy she is. And, like,
that song she like goes after her fans the Hannahs and Sarahs she says for being upset with her for dating him so her fans when they found out that they were dating they wrote her an open letter no no we did not write this letter no I was gonna say if you guys were
part of this letter, then maybe I am going to have to intervene here a tiny bit. So they write an open letter. Yes. Basically saying like, you know, he's so problematic. I hate that word. Was it dear Taylor comma? It was like
Like, this is an open letter to Taylor Swift. Like, please consider... And then what was the sign-off? I don't know what the sign-off was, but I just know, like, the open letter was, like, in four different graphic pictures and there was, like, words bolded. Oh, shit. Like, his behavior towards certain communities. Like, anyway, just fully, like, going into it. Okay. Yeah. And...
People might have genuinely wrong actions. I just kind of hate the moralizing and the judgment. And Taylor does too because she wrote in the song, I would rather tear my whole life down or burn my whole life to the ground than spend one more second hearing all this bitching and moaning. Literally, those are the lyrics. It's a great song. Yes, yes.
I love that you followed up with literally because that's kind of wild. It's pretty amazing. She calls out the pearl clutching Hannahs and Sarahs. That's hilarious also. She says, what does she say? Like, uh, vipers dressed in empaths clothing. God save the most judgmental creeps who say they want the best for me. Take it away. Pretending like you don't know the next line.
And then she's like, yeah, I'd rather burn my whole life to the ground than cater to what you're saying. And she says, I'll tell you one thing. Like, my good name is mine alone to disgrace. Sorry, I should really have this down. Anyway, it was like... Why do you have it memorized? I'm like shaking right now forgetting a lyric of Taylor's Wrong. I feel terrible. We are going to do a full edit and make sure that it comes off like you said it perfected. Don't even worry about that. Thank you. No, anyway, it's just, it was...
A complete admonishment against the fans, like, STFU. And anyway, I think what happened, I believe what happened, I know what happened, is he just hated it. He hated the Psycho Swifties. He didn't want the pressure. He didn't want, you know, all these people appearing in. Which I get. Yeah. Which I understand. So, and by the way, those lyrics, like, Taylor has bars. Like, that's...
The way she writes is crazy. I did see a clip that we will get into about like one or two lyrics that you guys are like, oh, it's a little, I don't know. It's a little something I would write in kindergarten. We will touch on that. Oh, gosh. So, okay. And she's pissed at the fans for kind of- For like ruining her relationship. Basically like taking the, she says it's like the one thing I wanted was this guy. Why can't the fans just-
I mean, like, they're going to tear apart, like, her dating. Like, I feel like if you're a real fan and, like, really love someone, you are, like, you will just take them as they are. And you will respect what they want to do in the moment. I think, too, in all fairness, like, if the relationship would have gone on longer, I think more of the fans would have gotten on board if they would have felt like this guy really makes her happy. He's apologized for some of his actions. But I think because it was such a, like, literally the open letter came out May 17th.
Don't ask me why I know all these exact dates. And then they announced their breakup like June 5th. So it was just like, it's done. Okay. But I do think the fans would have gotten on board more so if it had lasted. I don't know if I could date a Taylor Swift.
Really? It's way too intense. And like I've dealt with a public relationship and like even that was like a lot. Really? So I can't even imagine Taylor Swift level. Don't you think it'd be kind of fun though? Like getting to know Taylor Swift?
I mean, just because it's her. The private jet just flying you all across the world. It sounds so sexy. No, actually, I take back everything I said. I'm thinking about it now and like the lavishness that would come with it. Apparently her like lovers are transported in like dark vans to her and like dropped off in like alleyways into like mysterious doorways. So literally how guys treat me. Yeah.
Are you dating Taylor? Yeah. Actually, but, okay, so how do we feel about Travis Kelsey?
I think Travis Kelsey is perfect for her in the sense that he, like, he's media trained to some degree. Like, he's used to being in the spotlight. I think he's like, you know, she's at the top of her craft. He's at the top of his craft. I think, you know, I think they're really hot together. That being said, I do think that he is not necessarily, you know, her artistic muse in the way that some of her other, you know, lovers were. But I think he makes her really happy. I don't like the athlete aspect.
The athlete. Done. You said so much. No, no athlete. I don't trust it and I never will. Really? I think maybe 2% of them are faithful and, you know, in that sense.
And I just, I don't know. See, I'm with you. I don't want a man who's adulated by a bunch of stranger women. I feel like she needs to be with like a world leader. That's who I would really love to see her with. She has just as much influence. Completely. If not more. Any world leader. Right, right. I want to ask you guys, and by the way, I saw them at…
Zen Yara after Coachella. I did see Taylor Swift. Stop. Tell us everything. They were right in front of me. Travis dropped his hat in the sand. So Zen Yara is like it's owned by Tao Group and like after Coachella it's like the it's so fun. Like that's where you go.
And I was walking to this like beach area and there they were and then his hat fell and then he picked it up and he put it on and then we kept walking. What was it like? Wow. How do you get it off the ground? Yeah.
I'm like, what was what part? Just the hot. I was honestly, I think I had maybe lost my phone at that point. And I wasn't as much of a Swifty as I am now. And now in hindsight, I'm fucking furious that I didn't take in and relish that moment. I also have this weird thing, though, when I see celebrities out, we're like,
I don't want to be that bitch that's like ogling, you know? So I think I really tried to play it cool. Was he hotter in person? Was she hotter in person or anything in person you can give us? I want to say exactly how you would expect from her. Okay. Just as pretty. Yeah.
He was a little bit underwhelming, but this is also after Coachella. I probably looked like I had just been like dragged behind a bus and like showed up there, you know? And you have the bandanas and the hat. And so, but I wish I would have like, I don't know, ran to grab the hat. Her security would have tackled me within three seconds if I tried to pick the hat up.
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But why does Taylor have such a grip on the world? Like, how was she able to do that? I just personally feel like she's done what I don't know that any other artist has done, which is like capture, in my experience, to me, the female coming of age experience so
so deftly and so emotionally impactfully. Like, her songs are just so good, you know? And I think that's, for me, how she's done what she's done. Like, no other artist really, I think, has put out so many albums that really convey the human experience. Like,
She just created like incredible art that will transcend time. I think as well. That was incredibly well said. Wow. It's like moving. I think too she has a – like she's an expert at connecting with her fans and making her fans feel like they are like in it with her and I just think nobody else really does it like her. Like you just saw it at like eras, everything. Her fans are so dedicated to her and I think that's because she like gives them a lot. Yeah, she's like cultivated. Yes. I want to like –
I want to like take notes. I don't know. It's like it takes a certain kind of openness and like strategy at the same time to be able to pull that off. Right. But I also think that does she regret it a little bit now? Like the career and life she's built? Well, just this fandom. Because now she's calling them Megans and Sarahs or whatever. I mean, I'm sure there's a part of her that like –
I don't know if she resents it, but I think there's probably definitely a part of her that is annoyed at the hardcore Swifties because they box her in and they want her to be one version of Taylor forever and ever. Yes. So we put out a reel about what's, I think, one of the lines that's questionable from a writing perspective on this album. And there are a
few, you know? And I just, the level of vitriol and hatred and anger. I mean, we had a Kate Middleton series that went viral and then we got a lot of hate when she said she had cancer. And so that was nothing compared to the emotion behind these Swifties in the DMs and in the comments. Yeah, like, I don't know, her rabid fans who'd seen no wrong in her, who cannot see her objectively at all,
They're psychotic. They're fully deranged. But also, what did you even say? I said, so there's a line that in one of her songs, I'm going to say it on a bigger platform now. Okay.
Come after me. With way more listeners. This is perfect. I should get a lot more feedback, but that's okay. Her line is, you take my ring off and put it on the finger people put wedding rings on. And that's when my heart exploded. Yeah, basically. And that's when my heart exploded. It's a clunky line. It's a little bit like that Instagram poet, Rupi Kaur, or whatever. It's just corny, you know, and it's clunky. Yeah, that line is a little bit questionable. But...
You know what? I guess I wish her the best with Travis. Kind of. I think she can do a little bit better. You do? So who would you like her to date? I think that she is so fucking massive. Yeah.
I don't think she needs to be with someone on her level. She needs to be with someone who is going to let her shine and do her own thing. I see how that hasn't really worked out in the past. Yeah. But like – but there is no like man on her level. Wouldn't it be so fun if she dated like the 39-year-old CEO of BlackRock?
Or just like, you know what I mean? But that's what I want for her. That's what I want for her. Yeah. That would be hot. Like low key. Private, super rich. Billionaire. Yeah. Way richer than her. Yes. Yes. Oh, that's a great point because there are definitely men that make more money than her. Yeah. I would rather he was like, or someone, she was with someone who was like in a room deciding like which countries were going to go to war. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you. And you know what? She could channel that because that's like a high pressure, high state situation. And she could really channel that and put that into her music. The bangers would be unbelievable. Insane. The geopolitical bangers. I know. Anyway. So all world leaders that listen to Sophia are going to have – you heard it here first –
Okay, should we move on from Taylor? It's like so hard to. It's impossible. Now I'm like, I want to go home now and just like research her for 20 hours. You need to. Well, I guess I'm just going to go listen to Pop Apologist because it seems like you guys have all the research right there. You guys lived in Utah. Yes. For several years. Yes. Both went to BYU? Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.
The TikTok, the Utah TikTok. Okay, Nara Smith. Is she what you would consider a trad wife? Nara Smith, if you've seen her videos, she does like, my husband was craving lasagna, so I got up first thing and made homemade mozzarella. Have you seen any of these? I don't want to see the account. What's funny is that our mom actually loves these videos, and I always see my fucking mom commenting like, this is amazing. My mom does too. And I'm like, this is annoying to me. I kind of am obsessed.
Yeah. But so creeped out. But like I can't look away. But like I want to be her. It's like so many emotions. Yeah. I just also feel like the story behind my husband wanted lasagna. So I woke up at 5 a.m. to make cheese. Mm-hmm.
ends with a disappointing reaction, resentment, like a lot of cleaning. No one's happy at the end of that. And they're not showing that. And she's typically also in like negligee, looking gorgeous. She's absolutely stunning. Stunning. But that adds to the creepiness. Right. It's like she's in a spotless negligee outfit. And she's been pregnant. She's had her baby. And then she's cooking all these things. I mean, and these cooking processes are hours long. That's what got me.
Because I am not an avid TikTok user. And for something to captivate me in the way that she did, I was scrolling.
And it was the Cheez-It video. And I just heard her say like something about making homemade Cheez-Its. And I was like, oh my God, there's no way you can like do those homemade. That's crazy. And then I watched it and then I started looking into it. And then she is talking about how her kids want Cinnamon Toast Crunch. I'm like, okay, so she's going to like pull out the Cinnamon Toast Crunch box and –
making homemade cinnamon toast crunch. How? And at what time do your kids actually get the cinnamon toast crunch? Literally 5, 6 p.m. Hours later? I mean, here's what I'm going to say though. Like, sorry, but fuck homemade Cheez-Its. I love Cheez-Its. I don't want the homemade version. Have you tried them? No, of course not. I have a kitchen in New York. I'm not making homemade Cheez-Its. I know.
I know. It's because we live in New York. I think we just see these cooking things like, wow, like she has room for like a juicer and all of this stuff in her kitchen. The countertop space. We could never. Never. We could never. How do you feel about her? I mean, you get creeped out. You are like. I feel like there's, I mean, now we're like really getting into it. I mean,
Not really. No, let's get into it. She's making cute videos. I've never seen her account, so I'm talking about something. Oh, I love that. You're like, this is actually terrorism. This is horrifying. Never seen her account. That's the type of shit.
I do all the time and just make blanket statements, period. They are factual and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Yeah. But. You just summed up our podcast really well. Yes. Yes. That's what podcasting is. Yeah. Absolutely. Is lying. I've.
I think her videos are sweet and nice. I think, you know, there are people who go to Instagram for inspiration and there are people who go to Instagram for relatability. I go to Instagram for relatability, not inspiration, frankly, because to me it's like annoying and, you know, and maybe that's my own issue to work through, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But I see her content and I'm like, I'm literally never going to be this type of a wifey. Sorry. Yes. Yes.
I kind of have a similar reaction. Her husband, I guess he went to school in Draper, Utah, where I like grew up. Yeah. His name is Lucky. Yes. And he looks the way he does. Yeah. And she looks the way he does. And the kids, the kids names, by the way.
Slim Easy. I just found this out today. No. Whimsy Lou. That's the latest, baby, is Whimsy Lou. Oh, okay. That's the latest. And Rumble Honey. Yeah. So we've got – okay, so we're like rolling in deep this family. We got Slim Easy, Whimsy Lou, Rumble Honey, and Lucky Smith is the dad. Yeah. Yeah.
It's like, are we on planet Earth? No, I, you know what? People love to have their baby names be kind of wackadoodle and that's their prerogative. Their kids are darling from like what I've seen. To be honest with you. Do we sound so passive aggressive? Maybe. We are like complimenting her. She's actually lovely. She was fucking annoying. But,
But I have conflicting feelings about it. Honestly, here's what I'm going to say. They're active Mormon. Yes. And that is actually why I think it bugs me so much is because I see like the fact that she's Mormon and doing all this, that's why it rubs me the wrong way. I think that is a really great strong point.
That is – and I think for me too. Yeah. Because we kind of know – We know there's a culture. Especially like – and I don't know if they're based in Utah, but like the Mormon culture in Utah is just so men-pleasing. You know, like the woman – their whole lives revolve around like making their husbands happy. Yeah.
And so I think maybe that's why we have kind of like an adverse reaction. People have even like parodied her stuff. I just don't think she's bothered by it. Like I don't think she's bothered by anything we're saying. I mean maybe. But I think this is her – this is her vibe and her brand. And so many people do eat it up. I mean she has like a million followers. Yeah.
I mean, on TikTok, she has like seven something million. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Oh, my gosh. It was the Cheez-It video, I'm telling you. Something about that video, I was like, I will follow this girl for the rest of my life. I mean, maybe if she made like cheddar jack Cheez-Its, like homemade, and then I'd like subscribe. Those are –
Those are so much better than regular Cheez-Its. Or the extra toasty. Anyway. I need to try those. They're good. I think her husband creeps me out more. Well, he's always like has a toothpick in his mouth. Yeah. And it's like, okay, it's 2024, not like 1952. Yes. Yes. There's a little bit of like –
They're kind of like cosplaying. It's sticky. It's sticky. They're hot. Their life looks beautiful. It's gorgeous content to consume. It's too perfect. And I'm sure that my reaction is partly because, you know, I was raised kind of Mormon, partly because I want that. I want to be that. But it's very interesting. And so you guys were both Mormon at one point, right?
Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. I left Mormonism when I was in high school, when I was like 17. That's when I like mentally left. Okay. But I didn't actually like – wasn't able to leave, leave until I like left BYU. Your parents are still Mormon? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And how do they feel about –
Our parents are incredibly loving and supportive. It's been a journey of, like, understanding on all sides, but they, like, we have an extremely good relationship with them. Yeah, we have a really good relationship. And we're open about our lives with them. That's great. Completely, yeah. No, I mean, I kind of mentally was not into it really young, like, 12, 13. I was just like, no. Yeah, I mean, but, like, also what kid is going to, like,
be into church. You know what I mean though? They make it hard. They do. It was three hours when we were going. Yeah. Are you sure? Because I felt like that shit was all day. I swear to God that shit started at 6 a.m. and like did not end until like the sun was down from what I remember. Did you have to go to seminary at all?
Like I did here and there. And then my grandma taught like a seminary class. Okay. And when does that happen? So I guess for those of you who aren't familiar with seminary, seminary is like – Which is probably this. Probably everybody. Seminary and Mormonism is like a before school. At least for us, it was before school. And I think for everyone basically out of Utah, it's preschool like Bible study. And so we would go at like 7 a.m., 6.30. Yes, 6.30. And five days a week. Mm-hmm.
But in Utah, it was like built into your class block at times, I thought. Well, I went to a private Catholic school. So I didn't have that experience. But then there's –
Family home. Home evening. Family home evening. I'm just remembering this shit. And that's on Mondays? Yeah, that's Monday night. And then there's church youth activities on Tuesday night. Okay. So it's Monday through Friday mornings. Then Monday and Tuesday evenings. Then Saturday is supposed to be a steak dance. For teenagers. For teenagers once a month. And then Sunday is three hours. And I just still feel like there's more than that. I always like to be careful when I'm talking about this kind of stuff because –
A lot of my family is still Mormon and they are great, incredible people. I just think specifically the Utah culture, like,
It's like very different. And I know that because my mom grew up in Buenos Aires, Argentina and was Mormon there. You know, it's like it's not as judgy or clicky or all those things. Yeah, the Utah Mormon thing is so interesting because I didn't realize when you – like I actually think people who live in California and other states and who are Mormon are almost like more Mormon because they like have to like –
It's a choice for them. It's not the business. Usually it's not where they work and like it's not so all encompassing. And so I feel like it's very doctrine forward where when you're out of state, but when you're in Utah, I feel like there's so many people who are casually Mormon because it's just like the sea you swim in. And so going against the current is so much work. Yes. But it's weird. Like in Utah though, you're right. There's so much judgment. Yes. It's very looks obsessed for women. Can we talk about that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
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So...
I was talking to my friend, because she's the one that really told me about Ballerina Farm and all this. We probably need to explain what that is. We can't just casually say that one. But before we get into that, the Utah hair. And my friend texted me verbatim saying...
People say that the girls in Utah have the best hair, but they don't know how to curl it. Is that just like my friend saying some shit or is that like actually? Did she say this recently? Yes. So I think recently, I think maybe five, six years ago, Utah women had like the most incredible like mermaid curls. And now I feel like that's kind of gone out of fashion. It's more like undone. And I think maybe it's been hard for people to let go of the mermaid curls, the perfectly spiraled curls.
Beach waves, if you will. Yes. Yes. The extensions.
I just like, right? Yeah. It's almost like – Every girl, their hair is like down here, which that – by the way, that was me up until like I moved to New York. And then I was like, oh. Yeah. That's like definitely not the vibe here. I need to rip these out immediately. Yeah. To be honest, and I'm just making this comparison in my mind, but it's almost like Playboy adjacent. Like the styling. It's a very like fake tan, long –
bleach blonde extensions. It's just like as heterosexually, heteronormatively pleasing as possible. The look there is the exact same look as the girls in Vegas. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Big lips, big hair. The lashes, which I totally love if you're doing it for you or doing it to make money at the strip club. The fact that we're comparing literally play points.
And I don't think the juxtaposition has ever been made. Mormon women in Utah juxtapose to that. But it's like, yes, it's like the just trying to please the man look. Yeah. And I like I feel like it's not like all the women in Utah are just doing the honesty for them. But it is it's just a very like normie way of being hot. Totally. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.
I kind of miss it, honestly. I swear to God. It's an easier formula. I don't know what to do with my fucking hair. I don't know how to curl my hair. I don't either. This is like the first time I curled my hair in months and it looked like a box. And I had a mental breakdown before I came here. I usually always just wear it in a clip.
But you have your hair back. I mean, my hair's back. You're wearing a baseball cap. I have blonde curled hair that I'm now putting behind my shoulders. I'm so in your shirt. Please. Ballerina Farm. Oh, gosh. We have a lot to say about Ballerina Farm. Explain what it is.
So, it's this woman named Hannah Nealman, and she has eight children. She's like birthed them all in the family bathtub at home, basically. And her and her husband have this huge farm, and they live this very like beatific, serene life on the surface, like
There's these videos of her constantly making sourdough bread and just like doing plies in the pastures. And it's very – it's like escapism for people without children who don't, I think, know how stressful actually a bunch of young kids is. But yeah, she really hits people differently. Like some people are like Swifties for her. They just ride or die for her and they don't see any of the issues. And some people do think that there's like some toxic positivity happening online.
on her account and it's very, she's very Utah and so much of like, I will be the perfect patriarchal woman. Well, she's very Utah borderline polygamy era vibe. Yeah. Not that that's what it is, but like it's, that's the vibe it's giving me. And it's not, I mean, they don't want to live a modern life by any, by any means. That's like their brand is like, we live on the farm. We have a lot of children. Is it homemade clothes?
It's not homemade clothes. No. Yeah, she'll wear like, she wears like, I mean, I know way too much about this woman, but she wears like free people and like totally like, she, the thing,
The thing about her, though, is like she might literally just naturally be more interested in things that make men happy. It's not – it might not be her fault. I'm not sure it's like – It might not be as calculated. Totally. With all of these influencers. Nara Smith, too. Yeah. I actually love cooking. I just live in New York, and so that's not an option for me. I would actually love to cook in negligee, but I don't have the countertop space.
And that is what it is. Should we start a business that's just like you rent out your kitchen? Literally. My building actually has like three kitchens. That you can just use? But I'm not going to – are you joking in like a public – No. And I like go in there with all my shit? Absolutely. I mean when you're making a 12-hour meal. No.
Absolutely not. And like doing that on purpose. Like no. Setting up the camera. Yeah, no. No. Also kitchen lighting and like underwear. Not it for me. It would be way too much. It would be way too much. But Ballerina Farm, her name's Hannah. People have mixed reactions. What are like the cons that people see? That it's like just too idealistic? Okay.
Well, I think something that, you know, is known about her is that, you know, she is connected to like JetBlue money. And so there is a, I think there is this trend of sort of
cosplaying as someone who's like living close to the land, like being a farmer when in reality it's actually very hard to be a farmer. I'm not saying that the work that they do isn't hard, but it's actually just not as cost effective. It's just, it's really hard to make a living that way. Oh, so she, okay. Yeah. Because I don't know as much as you guys. So they...
Her husband is a farmer. So they're like, we're ranchers. Yeah. And we sell our meat. But really low key, his dad is the founder of JetBlue and other four other airlines. Yeah. And she's also like an influencer. She has like 14 million combined followers. I don't know that, but I do. Yeah.
And anyway, yeah, she's like... And I think they probably make their money... I don't know how people make their money. It's so embarrassing. But probably from like their e-com store, mostly. It's like selling spoons and t-shirts. And they probably do have... They do have this viable farm or whatever. But I think if you're a rancher and you're like barely getting by because of like Monsanto's recent evils or whatever, and like you're just...
you know, life as a farmer I think is very hard and so I think you look at that and it's kind of like someone cosplaying like, you know, my, what is it, my culture isn't your costume type of vibe. Yeah, totally. My culture is not your costume. I mean, I do think there's like a trend of like cosplaying like you are poor and people really like, I mean, have you seen like Rudy Jude? Yeah.
This is like just an influencer hit episode, I think. No, I mean. Anyway, they're like, there's just like people who cosplay in a very simple as someone. Maybe it's not even cosplaying. They live a very simple life and it's content for people and people love it. We've talked about this. I think it's literally people like me who have an email job and I just want to like watch someone like connect with the land on my small screen. Wait, I'm sorry, an email job? Oh, yeah. Does that just mean like a nine to five? Yeah, I work at Meta. I'm a corporate employee. Oh. Yeah, yeah. And then you podcast like.
On the side. Okay, I was doing that for a second. Yeah. But I was talking about ribs.
really crazy shit. So that's a little bit different. But anyway, so you kind of like this escapism. Yeah, I think I think it's escapism for a lot of people. I think it's just not the reality of people who actually have to live that way for their livelihood. That's all. So I didn't know about that particular influencer and people pretending to be poor. But like I have heard of all of these, not all, but like
A significant amount of influencers and things coming out basically outing them like this is not like your reality. Yeah. This is not real at all. Right. But then at the same time, like, is it fair for us to –
think that we should be getting their realistic lives. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're clearly all creating content people want, right? And it's doing really well. Like her best videos are not her and pageants. Like the analytics, if you look closely at her account, it's clearly like that.
It's like her best videos are like, here I am making lemon dessert. It's not, I feel like, yeah, some of her more, I don't know. But all my point is, is like, they're delivering what people want. And people want this. People love it. It's like ASMR for people, I think. Even if it's not truthful, like who cares on some level? Because we read novels to be soothed. We do all sorts of things. And like Chandler said in one of our episodes, I thought this was so funny, but she was like, it's just a strange part of the simulation where like,
there's like this super rich woman who like goes and like picks flowers or vegetables from her garden and like the rest of us with like email jobs just like shove Cheetos into our mouths like trying to like calm down after work like watching this. I like as you were saying that I feel like there is kind of a duty once you hit a certain amount of stardom
to be a little bit more realistic and authentic. I kind of do. Yeah. And I think there was just like a little bit of rhetoric in terms of like, we started this farm and like, this is what we did. And like, I started a business and my dad, you know, put in money to start the business. And I've always been open about that, you know? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that off the bat ever. That's the first time I've heard her say that. Yeah.
It's actually the first time I've ever said it. No, I mean, yeah. And like, I was so grateful that that could happen. And anyway, I just feel like there's no, nothing wrong with like, it doesn't take away from your achievement. I've achieved a lot of either, like, but it's just like, but yeah, it's, it doesn't take away from it. And I think that also brought people the wrong way. Cause it's like, don't give advice about starting a ranch. If like,
you were able to buy like a $5 million pot of land at like 25. Right. It's like we've all had those friends who are like secretly getting direct deposits from their parents all the time, but they're like acting broke. Yeah. And I think it's just like a little bit of that. Just like just help it make sense to everyone else, to all the other normal people. Yeah. We don't need like full authenticity, but like just a little here and there. You can't just be like 100% like fake vibes. Yeah.
So you guys in your bio, which I love, your bio says you care about celebrities as much as your family. Where did this like stem from? Like I find this fascinating that you guys are so into pop culture the way you are.
You know, honestly, I think I just was – From birth? I don't – I mean, were you the type where you were like reading Lainey gossip back in the day and like reading celebrity blogs on your phone at school? No. No. Yeah, we were just into it. I remember like being at the nail salon with my mom to get like, you know, pink and white like French manicure and just being like, fuck yes, I was a new ass weekly.
And it's recent. Like loving gossip magazines. I did like love a magazine when I would come across it for sure. That's so crazy that we used to look at magazines. I know. Paper magazines. I remember being like, oh, this is from a week ago. This is super recent. Like I'm going to have new information now. Yeah, you look at the date on the magazine. It's so funny. Yes, that's so – oh, my God. But –
Like, I remember caring, but not really – I didn't really care about, like, the intricateness of their lives, per se, celebrities. I just liked looking at them and seeing what they're wearing and –
seeing like the how skinny how not skinny are we because that's that's the era I grew up right that was like all of our era do you ever go on the skinny website as a young woman wait why do I feel like that's giving me like a flashback it's okay you see this website yes and it would literally all it did and I would watch read this when I was like 12 or 14 all it did was post recent pictures of celebrities and be like I think she's up five pounds oh my god I
I remember that website. How crazy is that? That is so fucked. Like, you just, like, unlocked this, like, memory from, oh, my God. And it was, like, normal. And they would update it, like, constantly. Yes, and I, there was nothing like, this is wrong. We shouldn't be doing this. We shouldn't be talking about this. It was just like, oh, yeah. Like, I guess Alicia Keys has gained five pounds. Like, it was so, and I loved the fact that, like, it had pictures. Yes. Like, that. So you could, like, really see. Right. Yeah.
Oh, my God. I'm shocked I'm not, like, way more fucked up, like, when it comes to that shit. Obviously, like, I have my things. Like, I think every single woman on the planet, and men too, but that is wild. Yeah. And then Tumblr. Yeah. That was where I'd get my little hit of not healthy shit. Yeah. Yeah. But you guys were, like, into…
The lives. Yeah, I think we were just fascinated with it. And we started the podcast because like Lauren and I already talked to each other about celebrity stuff, just like Housewives or whatever we were watching or whatever. And Celebrity News like we're sisters, obviously, and best friends. So we would just call each other to talk about it. And that's kind of why we started the podcast was like around the same time as like the Kim and Kanye like peak era, like bound to Kim's selfie book.
And we were like, we want to – Yeah. We started in 2016 while we were at school. And we wanted to talk about Kanye West. We started being like pop – like we're apologizing for pop culture. Like we're telling you why this is interesting, why it should pay attention, and why it's fun. Because there was – you know, there's always so much anti-Kardashian rhetoric and stuff. And then our mom found out about it. We got 10 episodes in. It's so sad because like if we had kept going in 2016 – You'd be rich. We'd be in a much different position. Wait.
I would have a much bigger kitchen counter. Wait, so what? So you stopped. So she was like, so we were both still on the family phone plan and that was like 60 bucks a month. And she was like, I'm going to take you off the phone plan if this isn't deleted immediately. And you guys are like, bye.
No, literally she said, she said you have 24 hours to delete the whole podcast or else your dad and I are going to listen. And if we find anything on there, you're kicked off the family phone plan. And then I just remember calling Lauren and being like, get it the fuck down. Like take it down.
May Day. So then when did you bring it back? 2020. We were financially independent. Okay. So four years. Yeah. Like a four-year break. Yeah. Four-year break. Well, you know what? You guys are making up for lost time. I'm trying to. I mean, it's happening right now. We're manifesting. It's happening. I mean, it already has happened. So would you say you guys were –
Like, kind of, like, gossipy in high school. I mean, everyone was fucking gossipy. I mean, if someone says they weren't, I'm like, okay. Yeah. Pick me, girl. Yeah. Yeah. Ballerina Farm. Ballerina Farm vibes. Yes. Just kidding. I'm kind of like...
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I saw this TikTok and it was like the things to say when your friend is gossiping. And it was like, I would love to talk about something more uplifting or like all these or just like, is it okay if I hang out with you a time you want to talk about nicer things? So there's this quote that one of I remember someone told me, go 24 hours without complaining and see how your life changes.
I'm not – I don't – I can't. No. But it's not complaining. It's just me talking. Like, I feel like that's weird. I don't know. Complaining is like my personality. Venting.
Yeah, see how like pent up you become and like bottled up. Toxic positivity, anyone? Thank you. Yeah. Wow. Also gossip, and I think this is like a very trite rant, but I think that gossip really is a way for people to communicate like who's trustworthy in a society, who you can invite into your home, who maybe is actually like a pedophile or whatever. Like this is just how groups have exchanged information. And it's like, I think it really is like a misogynistic idea that
like the women's chatter is gossip when really it's just communication about like adult behavior. Boom. So let's talk about Ballerina Farm some more.
That is a perspective I have not heard, but it totally makes sense. Like we need to know and we need to be able to assess things. And when we're talking about gossip, I really think we're like saying like, you know, like the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard stuff. We were really talking about like betrayal, lying to people, like being deceitful, domestic violence. Like we're talking about people, but also ideas. Yes.
How do you guys straddle – and by the way, Amber Heard is my dream guest and I say it every single episode. How do you guys like hurdle the line between it being chatter, communication, exchanging of ideas versus this is like nasty? Yeah.
Some people would say not well. I mean, I think we have our moments. You're working towards that. Yeah, it's the ultimate goal. Yeah, I think that, you know, I think we have our moments where we really, like, for example, when we were talking about Scandavol.
Like that those are bigger themes that are happening and then I just seem like on the surface you know just like an affair or whatever but it was it was bigger stuff. And I think that you know I think we try to not be mean girl. You know I think and we try to be really self-aware as well like yeah what am I like even with the Nara Smith stuff like OK well I'm triggered because I don't have a countertop.
Like that's why I have this opinion and I hope that like if she sees this, she'll have a little chuckle and appreciate her countertops. Yeah. You know? Totally. Totally. I feel that. And also I don't talk about pop culture but like I definitely give platforms to people who are in pop culture, you know? Yeah. And when the whole Scandival thing happened, like I had Lala, I had Katie on, I had all of them on.
And once you are in a certain position, it just comes with the territory, kind of. That was like, that statement was so not hard hitting. And I was, as I was saying, I'm like, reel it back in, reel it back in. Because I've been on both sides. I just, I also think that like, I don't agree with if you are,
critical of someone, a lyric you think is corny or like someone's actions or whatever, and they're a woman and you're a woman, suddenly you're like not a woman supporting women. Like I think that's just a really thoughtless way of looking at the world. Like adults are adults and we're allowed to express constructive criticism regardless of our gender or their gender. And it just seems strange to me that now there's this onus on women that like, oh, if you have anything remotely critical to say,
it's being like woman-hating if it's about another woman. And I just don't think that's true. I think we can like – we can just discuss things, you know? Yeah. I think that's a great point. Do we have any closing remarks on Taylor Swift?
Well, we do have, you know, we have a full deep dive on the Tortured Poets Department. Okay. So that's on our podcast right now if people want to listen to that. Yes. Pop Apologist podcast. Yes. When was that album released and when did –
The episode go out. I need to know. Album was released Friday. Episode dropped Monday morning. Monday morning. Okay. Yeah. So you guys spent the entire weekend just – Head down. Head down. For sure. Taking notes. Okay. And I actually want to ask this so badly. You guys will refer to your sources. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Can, like, you reveal these sources or do you guys just – do you guys, like, have – I mean, like, first and last name or – No. Well, I mean, after this, 100%. Or are you guys just, like, scouring the internet? Oh. Oh, for Taylor Swift, we don't have any sources. Yeah. We just scour the internet. Okay. Yeah. With Kate Middleton, those were real people who we knew. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Really interesting. People we know in the flesh. Okay. Yeah. And the Kate Middleton thing, you guys have addressed it. Yes. Deleted the videos. Yes.
For a time. For a time. Yeah, I think it was some great work and I would like to bring it back at some point, but for now we feel like it's insensitive. So basically you guys were just talking about where she was, right? In detail. And then it came out that she has cancer. Yeah. So then it what?
Yeah, so basically everyone was looking for her. It was very concerning. I remember. And there were the fake photos and it was just all very weird. And so I started putting up videos and then they started getting traction and we kind of kept going. And then I had like a source reach out and we had two sources who were each corroborating the same thing. We felt like it was fully verified. I honestly...
like Windsor Castle or the family or whatever was like going to kill me. Like that's how crazy I got in my mind a little bit because I was like, I know the truth. I was imagining like someone from M16 like coming into my building like on the Upper West Side. Okay. Just in case. This isn't crazy to me by the way.
Like when you are talking publicly about like a super powerful powerhouse, like you do start to get – I've been there. And, you know, we did an interview with TMZ and Howard was like, Harvey. I'm like, Howard, what? Sure, sure.
You, sorry. Harvey was like, you know, what is it like to be who people are looking to right now for information on this? So it was a weird situation where like, oh, we did have a lot of eyes on us talking about a very powerful family. Anyway, the palace also said that her condition was non-cancerous.
So they fully lied. And then when it comes out she does have cancer, yeah, like if that's the full truth and that's the whole truth, we feel horrible about, you know, about what our sources told us and communicating that information. Is it the whole truth? I don't know. But for now, it's like, okay, we'll take it at this woman's – we'll take it at her word. We'll leave it be. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Well said. Thank you. Very well said, both of you. Okay, this was –
Really, really fun. We didn't get into the fact that there is a Utah influencer Reddit page that talks shit on Utah influencers. I did not see myself on there, but…
You know what? I'm going to make it. I'm going to make it on there. But you guys were amazing. Thank you so much. And this was amazing. And I haven't laughed this hard during an episode in a minute. Oh, my gosh. So thank you. This is so fun for us. Thank you so much. Thank you. So Pop Apologist podcast. And then where can they find your individual – or do you not want them –
We'll take it. Yeah. Plug away. So popapologist on Instagram and then popapologist wherever you find your podcasts. And then I'm Lauren Having Fun. I have 6,000 followers. I would love a few more on Instagram. Wow. Lauren is having fun. Yes, she is. And I'm Chan Cutery. Like short cutery about Chan. Okay. Love it. You guys were like, fuck the first and last name. Literally, no. We're going to make this artsy.
You guys know where to find me. Sophia, the enough Franklin with a Y and I'll talk to you next week. Bye.
