The Real Ghosting ft. Jack Wagner 01:17:57

Like 99% of paranormal stories, videos, things like that that you encounter is probably fake. Even if 1% is real, that's a lot of people.

If you guys haven't noticed, I haven't had a new merch drop in a minute, but that is all about to change very, very soon. What you guys don't see is the madness behind the scenes and what shipping merch out really looks like.

Making sure you guys are receiving your items on time is beyond important to me and those that run businesses know exactly how stressful it can be. There's a reason why everybody uses ShipStation. ShipStation has made my life so much easier. I love being able to automate shipping tasks and manage orders in one simple dashboard and even print shipping labels with just the click of a button.

I am able to save thousands of shipping costs with discounts of up to 89%, you guys. And that's off DHL, UPS, and USPS rates.

So work less and ship more with ShipStation, the innovative tool that helps turn your shipping challenges into opportunities for growth. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SOFIA to sign up for your free 60-day trial. That's ShipStation.com, code SOFIA.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Sophia Franklin. If you haven't subscribed, I was about to say the F word, please subscribe. I don't want to get demonetized. I'm recording from WTF Media Studios. And if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe.

in New York and I am here with the host of The Other World Podcast, a paranormal podcast, Jack Wagner. How are you? I am doing good. How are you? I feel so blessed and honored that I get to have you on the week of Halloween. Dude, I know. Right in time. This is, I mean, it's a day before. I know. A day before Halloween. Right down to the wire. Right. You're probably like, bitch, this is like, you should absolutely feel honored because you probably have so much. It's true. This is my busy season now.

Now. This is my life now. I wasn't before, of course. What? What do you mean? Like paranormal. Okay, right. This is like new to me. Right, which is so interesting. I was like looking at your background and first of all, this is a very kind of unlikely match. My show, I usually have...

Not random, is what I'm calling my guest random. It is kind of random. I was scrolling. Yes. Random people, like influential people, which you are. But... Thank you. They're usually talking about not supernatural. Yeah, for sure. Stuff. Which you used to not talk about. Yeah. No, I hosted... I mean, I guess my background was like comedy and I'm a director. So...

I was doing all sorts of weird stuff on the internet, like strange stunts a long time ago. I had a show called Like and Subscribe and then I hosted this podcast called Yeah But Still. Which is a hilarious name, by the way. It is a good name. I really like that name. But yeah, we would just kind of interview people and goof around similar to this. But then it just sort of like... Segwayed into... Yeah, well, I started one Halloween. My friend Lindsey had like a really funny ghost story.

And I think I just wanted to put it on the podcast, but I was like, I can't just like put out one single ghost story. So I wanted more. So I did like a tweet asking if anybody had one. And I thought like I really thought I would get like one or two people and I thought they would be bad. But my inbox got like straight up flooded with submissions and I was immediately like reading them.

And they were crazy. Like, they were like... People were telling me about years of their life. That's... You're like... It was, like, way more than I thought. So, what was the tweet? Like, just tell me about... I was just like, have you... Does anybody have... I think I asked, has anybody experienced something paranormal and wants to tell me about it? And it got, like, 30 likes. Uh-huh. But I got, like, way more submissions than that. I thought you were saying it was a lot of likes for a second. No, it was not... That was the thing. It was, like, not... It's not like it went viral or anything. Mm-hmm. So...

The stuff I was reading off of just a small group of people made me realize like, I think there's like, I think there's more people out there who have experienced strange things that just don't talk about it. So that was kind of why I started the show. I think true crime, which is obviously a different genre, but true crime. And I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of supernatural paranormal types of podcasts out there, but it's usually...

people who are like our experts talking about it and you told me before we started recording you're like I don't claim to be an expert on this. No, I don't even think there's such a thing. Oh, you don't think paranormal shit is real? No, I mean, I don't know if there's an expert right like I don't really I make a point of not really weighing in myself on the show part of that is I just think it makes it a better show to let the people talk for themselves, but even if I was like I'm not

For me to come in... I always feel like it'd be weird for me to come in at the end and be like, what they were experiencing was a banshee. It was a fairy. I'm not saying...

You're not saying it's not real. If that stuff is real, nobody knows anything about this. Even if you believe it's real. I certainly don't. So like I'm not gonna sit there like... Yeah. Which I... I don't know what it is. I don't know. I mean that's a kind of the whole point, right? Yeah. Which I really respect because I think if you're even like watching a show like Ghostbusters, which don't ask me why I'm bringing up that show. It's just always the first thing on my TV. Do you mean Ghost Adventures? No. Is there a show? Ghostbusters?

I mean, look, excuse me. There's a very well-known film called Ghostbusters. That's not what I'm talking about. Ghost Hunters. There's a there's like a million travel channel shows about this shit. Yeah, but I will end up watching it and they talk about it like it's so matter of fact and they have the machines and they're like, we picked up, you know, and it kind of it just makes it feel forced and it makes you, I don't know, a little turned off. Probably a lot of it's fake.

I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. I mean, which mine is not. Yeah. It would be way easier to fake. I kind of wish I did host a fake show, but I say that Otherworld is nonfiction and I try my hardest to make it to like follow those same rules, you know? So... Yeah. It's... That was kind of my thing from the beginning is like trying to suss out people that really, really witnessed something that like I could not explain myself. Mm-hmm. And...

I would try to find an explanation, but most of these, like, there's just no way. Do you have to kind of filter these stories? Like, has there ever been someone who submitted a story that you're like, this person is just trying to get on the show? Oh, for sure. But... But you can kind of tell. You can tell if someone's writing, like, a seven-page thesis paper on their experience. You can tell when it's authentic. It's very obvious when you're talking to somebody who, like, actually experienced something that they...

Can't explain, especially if it's scary. Because like a lot of the times it's really traumatic. So it's obvious and it's it's obvious when they're lying. Yeah. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of people in the past. It's you kind of eventually learn when somebody's bullshitting you. You know, I mean, I can tell people are bullshitting me when I'm interviewing them. You know, they're like telling a story. Do I seem like I'm bullshitting? You absolutely do not seem like you're bullshitting. But no, I mean.

And look, like not to go on and on about like the process, but I'm like, you know, most shows, it'll be like a person telling like a campfire style story and it'll just end like, ooh, like we don't know. But what I do on the show is like, usually after they're done, I'm like, okay, I need your mom's phone number. I need like everybody's phone number that you know. Like, I want to find out more. I'm going to like be digging into this a bit. And so if they were lying, it's going to be like...

Right. Not super easy for them. Yes. Yes. And I even and ones that are pretty far out there, I'll usually try to talk to some people that are close to them and even just like sort of give them the space to warn me if that was if they're like, hey,

I don't know if you should be listening to everything Johnny is saying right now, you know? Totally. You're like, you're going on the record, by the way. I've had people sign a contract saying they are not deceiving me before. Okay. A couple times. Damn, I like that. Yeah. I listened to a few episodes and you really give people just the floor to tell their story. You don't really come in and yeah, tell them like, oh, this is what happened.

you just really like let them tell their story. Yeah. Authentically. And I found that very interesting about your shows. You don't really intervene too much. No, for sure. I mean, I edit myself out a lot. Like I am talking in there for sure. Why is that? Oh, I mean, I'll just like ask them clarifying questions and stuff. But I mean, the real answer is that I like the stories a lot myself. And when I started the show, I was like,

A lot more people will like the stories than they will like me. I should take a note out of that book actually. I don't know if that's the case. I've been told. But I think what's cool about this is that a really wide range of people end up listening to this. And people that I didn't even suspect would end up listening to my show.

um i'm always surprised that people talk about like oh me and my grandma listen to it together coming from a show where i like just goofed around right with my friend well in the other world is a huge show like it took off tremendously did you were you expecting that to happen you didn't think it was going to become as big as it did i was supposed i was doing five episodes of the show so like if you

I haven't listened back in a while, but I'm sure in the first few episodes, I'm saying things that imply that it's going to end. Right. And basically, I mean, it was kind of funny. So it started to take off pretty quick. I was going to do six episodes and then I was like, man, this is being received really well, better than most things I've made before because I've made a lot of random shit in my life. Yeah. And I was like,

dude, this is doing good. I should like see this through. And then this Washington Post profile came out about the show. And then that kind of set things off. Literally that morning, I had like the agents from the various agencies suddenly like texting me. I was all of a sudden meeting with them and like,

In the meeting with like the agent that I ended up signing to, he was like, I was like, well, I was thinking about doing this as like a seasonal thing that I, you know, I'll probably make a couple more than stop. And he was like, no, you're fucking not. I was like, what? He's like, absolutely not. You're not stopping. I was waiting for him to laugh. I thought he was like goofing with me. He's like, no. And I'm like, it's a lot of work. He's like, you

You'll figure it out. And so I just kept going. And like here we are. It's been a year. So are you still with that agent? Yeah, for sure. Thank God for him. Yeah. Because I mean, the show is just huge. Have you ever received a story? Because this is my question. If I watch a scary movie in the morning, don't ask me why I'm watching in the morning. Let's just say I am the rest of the day.

I walk around creeped the fuck out, right? This is a funny question. Like you have to be constantly spooked. No, not at all. You're not. It's weird. Like I used to get more scared before and that's part of the reason I didn't want to do it all the time is because I was like, this is going to take a toll on me to hear, to be constantly interacting with stuff like this and thinking about talking to people about demons and stuff. Like I'm going to be going crazy. What's funny is that like,

I think it's just a lot of work and when I'm finally done, it's like the last thing I want to think about. So I've just like, I walk around my house in total darkness, like completely chill in a way that I wasn't before. Interesting. I think it's a mix of like... Exposure therapy. Exposure therapy, like just knowing my house isn't haunted.

Like, you know, you know, when you're a little kid, maybe maybe this is not the case. But like when I was a little kid, I used to think that there was like there might be a shark in the pool. You know, I think like a person that actually works with sharks every day wouldn't have a stupid fear like that because he'd be like, oh, yeah, sharks don't live in a pool. Like sharks aren't in this lake. Yeah. Like why would they? Totally. So that's kind of how I am with my house. It's like, yeah, I don't live in a haunted house. They live in a haunted house. And also, even if I did witness something, I think like I'm just too tired now that I would

I think I would just ignore it. It would be like if your manager showed up at your house at midnight and you see him on the ring cam knocking, you're like, dude, I'm not... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go away. Actually, anyone knocking... What are you doing here? Leave me alone. Yeah, totally. Yeah, so... Yeah, I don't know. I think I just... It's work now, so it becomes...

That makes sense. That totally makes sense. It almost feels like you have an armor now. Do you kind of feel like, I know how this goes. I've talked to all these people and I'm kind of like, I'm ready for a haunted encounter if it happens. No way. No.

Not even, no way. Okay. Because I do get, there have been a couple times I've gotten scared. Okay. Like before the show or after the show? During. During. One or two. Okay. But for me, it's important. I try to like stay in the middle at all times. Otherwise, I think if you cross too far one way or the other, it could be like really dangerous, if that makes sense. Especially if you're crossing into like full-on belief.

And then you get let down by something. It could be like a roller coaster. So I kind of just try to stay open-minded, you know. You're investigative journalism. Like you really try to stay unbiased. Yeah. But the series we're doing right now was the only one that scared me. And it was just because like it's about this family that moved into a very haunted house. I'm already freaking out. Yeah. So they move into...

They move I'll tell funny ones after this but so this couple I want to hear the scary this couple They're funny like odd pair from Canada and they find like this house. That's an insane deal It's like six bedrooms and it's really cheap And it's in this Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, which is kind of strange because they're not Orthodox only one of them is Jewish They move in

Some weird stuff starts happening. The husband is a contractor. So he's like, he knows all about, you know, everything related to a home. And like the basement floods like in the first day and like him and his friends check it out. Like they scope the pipes and everything. And there's like no reason it would have flooded. There was no rain. Like it just out of nowhere, like all the...

drains are shooting water out of them uh the alarms going off even when he's like disconnects it from power and the backup battery oh like strange things are starting to go down um and then at a certain point like this old dude that lives across the street from them this orthodox guy invites him over for dinner like this formal like jewish dinner and they like go over there have this sit down he like calls the husband into the other room like to have some man-to-man talk and um

The guy, the neighbor basically asked him like, "Is everything okay with that house?" Like we... Oh shit. There's anything going on? The neighbor asked that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, "Well, some weird stuff has been happening." And he's like, "That doesn't surprise me. It's been sitting empty for eight years." And he's like, "In our belief, if a dwelling sits empty for that long, it's susceptible to be inhabited by like malevolent spirits basically." So...

It starts there. It gets so much worse, especially like after her brother comes over and does a seance. Stop. Yeah, it starts to get really bad. And they bring in all sorts of people to help it. And it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. Can you tell me like one of the bad experiences that happened? I mean, the water like going everywhere is crazy. Oh, well, she starts to get possessed. So it gets crazy. They think. Yeah, it gets kind of nutty. But like one thing.

One thing, well, I don't want to spoil the ending. No, you don't have to spoil the ending. But just one thing that happened. There's a lot of witnesses with this one, which is like freaked me out and like talking to them. And I think the times that I'll get scared is when I'm like talking to them, like not on the podcast, you know? Yes. Yeah.

Like, I'll never forget. This was like a month into making it. I heard this story and it was immediately I was like, I'm in over my head with this one. So I interviewed the wife and she's like, my husband, Cameron, will never talk to you. He's like terrified of this. He won't even let me talk about it in the house. Like she had to go to her mom's house to talk about it. And she would only call me like out like when she's out on errands. She's like, Cameron, Cameron didn't even want to do the show. He got too drunk at a party and embarrassed himself. And he she's like,

She was like, okay, you have to let me do the podcast. Oh, I love that. I love that. You did this. I gotta do this. So anyway, like this guy like would not talk to me. I hear this whole story from her. I'm like, hey, just give him my phone number in case he wants to like call and vibe me out or whatever. And by this point, it's like way too late. It's like 1030.

I had started interviewing her at like five. And so I'm just like, fuck. I need to go. So you guys have been talking for hours and hours and hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I'm ready to go to bed or whatever. And then like my phone rings and it's this Canadian number. And like I answer and it's her husband. And he's just like breathing. And like in my memory, he probably did say hi, but in my mind, like in my memory, like

I think he just said in this like thick Canadian accent like, "You sure you want to know about this?" Oh shit. And like starts like dumping on me.

We are in a cost of living crisis, people, and everyone knows I am the queen of finding ways to save money. And that applies to my retail therapy as well. Rakuten is going to help you save money, period. I mean, it already has for me, so why wouldn't it for you?

It's the smartest way to save money when you shop because you earn cash back at over 3,500 stores. My personal favorites are Sephora, Saks Fifth Avenue, Wine.com, but I've also earned cash back on trips I've taken, home appliances, and even dining out with friends. It's truly the gift that keeps on giving.

And the membership is free and it's beyond easy to sign up for. So there's really no excuse. Cashback is deposited directly into your PayPal account or Rakuten can send you a check.

whatever way you prefer get the Rakuten app now and join the 17 million members who are already saving cash back rates change daily see rakuten.com for details that's r-a-k-u-t-e-n your cash back really adds up he just starts telling me so much just on the phone and he was like in his garage like drinking i think and um

I was just kind of listening to him. Like I could tell it was like a guy who like wanted to talk, talk about it. It was like, he was getting off his chest and he told me about something that ends up, it's in like the last part of the episode, something that he has like been trying to forget basically. And it was like, for me, that was the only time I got really scared. Cause it was like, you know, he's like this tough construction worker. Right. And he's like, we weren't on the show. He's like, he's like literally calling me and like,

trauma dumping on me about this. And it was just a lot. I was freaked out. So anyway, I went to this bar right after. And got hammered. I drank so I drank three Negronis like really fast. Yeah.

No, I mean, it's not like that's not like that aggressive, but it was I like sucked him down for the it's like I don't really drink that much. So it was. Three Negronis is crazy for you. Well, to be like doing it, you're not supposed to drink like that. You're supposed to drink when you're happy, you know? Right. Well, to go to go specifically to be like.

I need this in order to fall asleep. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. You're like, I need to black myself out to be able to go to bed. Yeah. So that wouldn't freak me out. I can tell. Like 99% of paranormal stories, videos, things like that that you encounter is probably fake. Or like somebody...

Getting it wrong. Yeah. Or like they're just scaring themselves. But even if 1% is real, that's a lot of people. That is. That's a lot of people, right? And people have all sorts of ways to explain stuff away. You know. There are some things that are just not explainable. For sure. And I think the people who really do experience...

Real things the last thing they want to do is go on some Travel Channel show and talk about it right and have like Ridiculous music laid over it and be like, you know, that's like with anything, right? You rarely hear from the person actually happened to or it's like the same five people that they keep carting out for every show right, so you don't want if you're having an experience like that I think people

you know, don't always realize like it's traumatic. Yeah. And you don't really want a team of people coming over filming you have these machines out. Reliving the worst day of your life. Right. Or like, yeah, so that's kind of what I started the show thinking that I was like people who actually live this don't want to talk about it. Because when you when it happens to you, the first thing you want to do is move on and forget. Like that's what people don't realize.

I haven't had much happen to me, but even like the small tastes of things I've had instantly, I was like, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah.

You talk yourself out of it. Yeah. You just want to move on because it opens up too many questions, right? Right. And it's a traumatic experience which you probably have searched for answers and they're not there, which just makes it worse. So you like want to like move on from it. Yeah. So my idea was to make this, make something that like I would listen to and something where like, hopefully if I did a good job, more people would come out of the woodwork and they did. Like that story was one of them. Another one was like,

I mean, this is a freaking tangent. I'm not going to go down it, but very early on, I got an email from this girl named Eilish Poe who emailed me and she said, hey, I've been offered TV shows and turned them down and I've never talked to anybody about what happened to me. She's like, you could just Google me to see if you want, but I'd be willing to talk to you if you want. And like, I looked it up and she, some guy she dated hid in her basement for two days and

and then jumped out and stabbed her 16 times. And she survived. Oh my God. So that's already crazy enough, but like the way she survived has paranormal elements and she deals with stuff now. Because she kind of like touched death, I guess you could say. Absolutely. Anyway, like I got to know her. That was a crazy series because it was like, it was really interesting to talk to her because she has like really, really, really, she really hates true crime. Okay. Yeah.

Because she thinks it glamorizes. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was really illuminating speaking to her. And I just tried to do the best I could to help her tell her story the way she wanted. But what really stuck with me is saying that being in the hospital and recovering from her stab wound still and having to report TikTok videos of people being like,

you know talking about her story and like sympathizing with the ex-boyfriend be like oh that's oh my god you know yeah and and articles coming out insinuating that they talked to her it was crazy and and talking about how her and her friends like still have to you know occasionally search and like find these like it's always small true crime pods you know what they do that are like doing her story and kind of like riffing on it like that's the weirder thing where it's like

riffing on like a stranger's murder talking about her as if she died like in the past tense that really bothers her and um

Yeah. And just kind of treating somebody's worst day as entertainment, you know? Yeah. Yes. Which, I mean, I guess like in a way I'm doing that too, but at least it's with her. But I mean these people, but I mean. It's with her. Right. She reached out to you for a reason because she felt like her story could be told in an honorable way. Yeah. But it was crazy talking to her. We've become good friends and like.

That was nuts. Like this was like one of the most surreal conversations I've ever had in my life. I can't imagine. You don't get to hear like she died pretty much. Yeah. So like I told her I was like I it's weird to call you like a attempted murder survivor. I'm like I feel like you got murdered. Yeah. Because she did like she experienced death and like came back. If you listen to the full thing like I don't want to spoil it but. She was stabbed how many times? 16. 16.

And then like, so, well, I'll give you a little teaser is that, um, please do. So she was like laying there, she was laying there like bleeding out. She ended up playing dead, um, to get him to leave. And, um, Eilish, if you're listening, sorry, I'm talking about you, but, um, I mean, we need to edit this. No, no, no. She's fine. Okay. Um, but, uh, yeah, she was laying there and, um,

Trying to find her phone to call 911. Another crazy part is that she was trying to use Alexa while she was getting stabbed. Oh my god. And she was like, Alexa, call 911. And Alexa's like, I can't do that. I do not have permission to make phone calls or whatever. Then she was trying... Hearing her walk me through what was going on in her head was wild. Mid-stab, she's doing this. And then so she's like, Alexa...

Call, I forget her roommate's name, Megan. Call Megan's mom because it's Megan's Alexa. And it's like, there is no contact called Megan's mom. And she's like, okay, Megan wouldn't save it as Megan's mom. And then so she's like, call like the name, the mom's name. Call mom, like all these things. It wasn't working. Meanwhile, this is like while she's getting. Oh my God. So like you never get to hear things like that from people, right? So anyway, so she plays dead.

gets in to leave and then she's laying there awake and she's trying to find her phone and can't. There's no pockets, right? So she's like, "Where's my phone?" And she's looking and like can't find it. She's bleeding out and like can barely move. And is the boyfriend still there at this point? He's ex-boyfriend by the way. Ex-boyfriend. Oh, and by the way, like not a serious relationship. It was a guy that she went on bumble dates with like three months in the past.

And like had forgotten about. It was like something that didn't work out. Oh my fucking god. So that's like another thing about the true crime stuff. Is that like it was always being painted as like this like wronged ex-lover. Right. I mean not that it makes it any better. Like there's nothing that justifies that. But like it was a person where it's like.

I mean, I'm sure you and everybody's had dated somebody where you're just like, you give it a go, but then you're like, oh, this is not. And forget about them and you forget about it. Okay. Yeah. Time to move on. Like, and she did. And he came back months later. Months later. She starts getting these texts that day where he's like blowing up her phone and she's seeing like, like he's talking about getting back with her and stuff. And she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, she's like teaching her class and she's like,

Like, hey, like, leave me alone. Like, what are you talking about, man? Like, good luck. But yeah, there's no like, why are you texting me kind of thing? Like, right. Meanwhile, he's in her basement at the time. That makes me sick. Like, that is horrifying. I know. And so anyway, so she was trying to find her phone.

And then all of a sudden she sees, I cannot tell the entire story, but all of a sudden her grandma Jeannie is standing in her doorway, like full. And grandma Jeannie has passed away. Grandma Jeannie's not alive, but she's, everything's so surreal that she's like, you know, she's like, what's grandma Jeannie doing here? And she's just like staring at her. She's standing in the doorway. And like, I think she just kind of stares at her and just like looks for a second. And then all of a sudden, like she fades out and then like another person appears and she's

It's her friend who committed suicide like a few years ago. Wow. And then that person fades out. And then the third person appears. And they're like, they're not ghosts. They're like fully formed humans standing in the doorway. She's like very adamant about that. And the third person does not look friendly. It's this girl she knew in middle school. They played on the basketball team together. And this one's like flailing her arms like, get up. Like not making sound, but she's like,

Like doing this stuff. And then this is kind of confusing, but like she does this like motion like this pushes her. And then all of a sudden Eilish is able to like stand up. And so here's the crazy shit. I have chills. Here's the crazy shit. That girl was also stabbed by her ex-boyfriend. And she died. And she didn't know until after. No, she knew. She knew. But this was like a person that was like not a big part of her life at the time, which kind of struck me because I asked her that. I was like,

Are these the people that you would think about in your final moments? She said no. Like, this is a girl I knew in middle school. That she was just on the basketball team with. Yeah, and then the girl that committed suicide she knew in college. And it was her good friend, but it was like, you know, these are not the people that like... Yes. It's not your mom. It did flash before her eyes also. That something else happened. This is like... See, this is why I like doing the show. Because I like to talk to unique people like this and get a glimpse of like...

Dude, what happened? What is that like? So she said that this was before the three ghosts. She calls them the three ghosts. Before they showed up, this like almost like a screen appeared before her. And she's seeing like this slideshow, like rapid fire slideshow of her life. It's like little scenes from like a third person perspective of like her and her friends laughing, like all these like memories, people that she knows, like really fast, like almost like

gifts or something, you know? And at the time she was like, what the fuck is happening? You know, and a little bit of like, oh shit, am I dying? Yeah. And then when her grandma showed up, she's like, oh no, I'm dying. Like grandma Jeannie's here. But then when her friend Vicky showed up and like helped her stand up, then she found the phone, was able to call 911. And the crazy part is that like, you know, a lot of people would be like, oh, well she passed out. She was dying. She passed out. And she's like,

you know she imagined this right like that's a little too well i know i mean so there's police body cam footage that i watched and like she is not out of it like and by the way this is like really really difficult to watch but like i watched it like

I made it like this small on my screen. In a tiny teeny, yeah. But just like to ver, you know, I kind of had to do it to verify, but like she's very lucid, like wide awake. Like. Oh, when the police arrive. Yeah, when the police and EMTs show up, which is just only a few minutes later. And, and the doctors even told her that she didn't die. Yeah.

It's crazy. It's a crazy story. I don't even think I spoiled it too much, but that was a landmark one for me that I spent a ton of time on. And it's paranormal, but obviously it's mostly not. But to me, it's kind of meta though, because it was almost like talking to a ghost. Yeah. Then I told her that. I was like, you don't get to hear...

When people get killed, you don't get to talk to them. Yes. And it was so crazy talking to her. You ask her like I would ask her dumb stuff, too. And like some of the weirdest shit sticks out to you. Uh-huh. Stuff that you think would be like easy questions. Right. Where I was like, what was going through your head when you saw him? And she was like, I don't know. She's like, I think it was. Oh, shit. I started laughing. I'm like, I guess you're right. What else would you say? Yeah. Oh, shit.

You know? That is. I guess that would be. Right? And then, like, she's just really funny. Like, she's a school teacher. She's, like, the nicest person ever. But now, like, hearing about, like, what's annoying to her now, too. Like, the true crime stuff, of course. And people telling her story in whatever way they feel is sufficient or going to get listens, right? Just the way victims are talked about, I guess, and not given a voice. And then, like, all sorts of...

Little things that are still like kind of amusing to me and not amusing but like one thing she pointed out was she's like you have no idea how much violent language is like in day-to-day conversations For instance, like I'll take a stab. Let me take a stab at it Yeah, people saying shit like that, which is now triggering to her obviously. Yeah, we're like Yeah, yes Like let's cut through let's cut through all the nonsense like I

So many things are like... Yeah, that's fascinating. And then she has a bunch of scars. I mean, she's still, like, dealing with, like, the recovery. Surgeries and... Yeah. And so she has all these scars and, like, I mean, I'm personally amused by this because she's, like, the sweetest girl in the world. But, like, she told me that sometimes... You know when, like, gas station attendants or, like, guys working at a store, like, some old guy will just, like, say some, like, stupid joke to you? And you're just like, aha. Yeah, sure, yes. Like, so...

You know, people are always like asking about the scars, which is like. Which is so inappropriate. Yeah. And like. People just. Yeah. But like I asked her, I was like, do you ever let people just have it? And she'll be like, oh, yeah. Like occasionally. And tell them what happened. Yeah. Or they'll be like, you should. What did she tell me? She was like, people always say to me like, oh, you should make up some crazy story about how you got the scars. And she'll be like, oh, like I got stabbed 16 times. Oh.

And they'd be like, what? I'd be like, because that's how I got them. And then like, oh, oh.

well what a fucking g they're probably like yeah i have nothing to say at that point so it was that one i i know we just kind of talked about that for a while but that one was like super meaningful to me that was also like one of those i spent so much time on i mean i you just gave me like a little sound bite of it and i will be rushing home to go is it's a crazy story and it's a little graphic like i will say that um one episode is like

Like literally just the attack, you know, in great detail. But I just like I interviewed her for 20 hours, I think, total. Yeah. And I just like I mean, I edited it myself in my backyard, like getting stung by mosquitoes. Like why? Because you don't want to be inside. No, I will. No, because I was inside too much. And I'm like, I need sun. Like, this is crazy. Like I'm stuck in my house. I need to at least go in the backyard. So I was like.

I spent so much time making it. And then having to listen back and do the editing, which that would, again, you have to re-go through it, would be difficult as well. Yeah. I've got used to it, but it was mostly like I really, really wanted it to be perfect. Because also we're friends and she trusts me. So I'm like, that's a whole other thing. But it's a lot of...

It's one thing like making a funny podcast where you're like, oh, I hope people laugh. This is a whole different thing where it's like, I hope I do her story on her. Yes. Do her story on her. Or like imagine somebody like that getting mad at you. It was like so stressful like making this show where it's like, dude, I, you know, I don't want to disappoint her. But she was happy with it. Like, I think it went well. And I mean, there was like, ironically enough, there was some like tabloid articles that came from it a couple months later.

Because the show was like, teacher says she sees ghosts after getting stabbed. Like,

And she got mad about that, but then she laughed it off and eventually I sent her a mug with the cover of the tabloid on it. That's what his teacher saw. Because they always use weird pictures. That's another thing she's like, they'll use pictures from my Facebook from like nine years ago that have nothing. So the one, the stabbing and seeing ghosts one had like, it's a picture of her from like the Renaissance fair and she's dressed like a maid.

Like they don't say it in the article. It just makes there's using. Yeah. Just to make it look a little more quirkier ominous than, you know. But anyway. Yeah. So that was a crazy one. I'm sorry to bring it. Make it so heavy. No, I know. I mean, that's why I brought you on, because I I have. I want to hear your stuff.

They're already probably mad at me. The salutes, is that what you call them? Yes, my salutes. I was listening. No, they're going to absolutely love. You think so? Yes. I remember I listened on the way here and I'm like, Jack, you can't talk the whole time. The salutes are going to be mad at you. No, I mean, that is what you're here for. And that story, I don't even want to call it fascinating because I want to be respectful. See, I don't even know how to respond to it in a respectful way. So I can't imagine telling the story. I would be like,

Is this okay to say? Okay, wait. I'll tell you one more thing. Okay, tell me. You're going to like this. You're going to like this. So here's the craziest shit. His family does not acknowledge that it happens. I don't want to spoil things. I don't want to spoil things. I mean, you're not spoiling it. Everyone needs to run and go listen to the Otherworld podcast and listen to this episode. I know I do. Okay, if you don't want a spoiler, you could like skip this part. Okay. Spoiler alert. Selling a little or a lot.

Shopify helps you do your thing, however you cha-ching. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the launch your online shop stage, to the first real life store stage, all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage.

Shopify is here to help you grow. Whether you're selling scented soap or offering outdoor outfits, Shopify helps you sell everywhere. From their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system. Wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify has got you covered. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkouts.

15% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And sell more with less effort thanks to Shopify Magic, your AI-powered all-star. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. And Shopify is the global force behind Allbirds, Frothies, and Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of

every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning 24-7 help is there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash odysseypodcast, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash odysseypodcast now to grow your business, no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.com slash odysseypodcast.

Okay, you can do this. I know, I know. Carvana makes it so convenient to sell your car. It's just hard to let go. My car and I have been through so much together. But look, you already have a great offer from Carvana. That was fast. Well, I know my license plate and Vin by heart, and those questions were easy. You're almost there. Now to just accept the offer and schedule a pickup or drop-off. How'd you do it? How are you so strong in letting go of your car? Well, I already made up my mind, and Carvana's so easy. Yeah, true.

And sold. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. So he's not alive anymore. Okay. I'll just say that he committed suicide. I was going to say. Part of the story is that she predicts like the police come in. They're like, where do you think he went? And she's like, I think he went to this rock. And like, they're like, why do you think that? They're like, she's like, I don't know. I feel like he did. And like, that's where they found him. But anyway, so like. Wow.

That's crazy. Like she predicts things now after coming close to death. It's weird. But she didn't know him well enough to know that he would be going to this rock. No, the rock was not significant. Wow. That was not even the thing I was going to tell you. The weird thing is that so it was a murder suicide, right? His family has never reached out to her and they regularly do these like

marches for suicide and post about it on Facebook and post about him his suicide on Facebook like a victim of suicide Do not acknowledge that it was a murder-suicide and one of them even went on the news. I That I was trying to learn me. I had this clip edited that I was gonna put in pretty sure I didn't put it in I don't think I put it in yeah, but I was like

Going to put it in of like one of his relatives like speaking on the fucking news About how he was like this angel and like oh, he's so missed he is this angel Everything he touched what he she said a couple things that were like a little ironic You know where it was like like um, he had he had such an impact on so many people I was like, oh he had an impact yeah, and um

And like, and it has never reached out to her in any way. Do they, are they in denial? Do they not believe, like what, what do you think is going on there? They just say that it was mental illness. A lot of people have mental illness. It doesn't mean you get to murder people. Right. And you can't just not acknowledge that. Yeah.

portion of it yeah or at least be like i'm so sorry or like so they've never spoken to her yeah and they're like meanwhile like publicly doing suicide awareness posts in like a happy fashion that's like and referring to him as an angel and it's weird it's weird and so like i just bring that up to say that like there are so many things you don't think about and even just like having gone through that and then like just the weirdness of life after where it's like

Yeah, it's crazy. Well, and she has to deal with it in like a public thing, which is just...

the worst shit ever yeah it's interesting so the those episodes like i kind of just gave her the room to talk about all the weird little details of things so it's really interesting spoilers are over spoilers are over i feel like there's i thought you would appreciate that i do that was juicy i do i don't even think i i don't think i put it on the show okay i think that little clip yeah i didn't put it on the show i was like

Maybe we'll throw it in here. I kind of felt bad. Like, not bad, but I had pity. I was like, you know what? These people... The family's gone through... They're going through it in their own way and not in a good way, but I don't need to do that. Whatever. Maybe... Yeah. Yeah.

I still, I mean, it's fucked up. Maybe they'll come around to it. I can't. The clip was brutal. I didn't put the clip in. So did he jump from the rock? Back to spoilers. Back to spoilers. Well, I'll tell you that after the show. Okay. Tell me after. I'm sure you have a million. Tell me after. Wait, I want to hear more about you, though. You have stories. I was listening to the Waka Flocka episode. Did I talk about a supernatural experience on there? No, but I was interested. My dad ghosted me. That was kind of a good one. Okay, okay.

No, that's a good line. Whenever people don't respond to me for the show or ignoring me, I'll send them a text and be like, damn, this is the real ghost story.

No, the reason I say that is because I feel like for the majority of the episode of Waka Flocka, I was like talking about like my daddy issues because my dad did ghost me, but that's not the ghost story. You didn't talk about it that much, but you guys were saying things where I was like, I feel like they're both accidentally revealing some stress in their life. Right? It was like, we didn't like specifically say. You sounded like you wanted to quit your podcast. Did I? Yes. Um.

That was not what I meant, Flutes. Absolutely not. No, I'm just kidding. But you were saying something like it was clearly must have been a long day or something like that.

Doing this type of thing does take its toll or really well now after talking to you. I'm like cool. He is sweet sweet like a sweet nerd intuitive very Smart and like he was he was really really cool. He was really dope. I love that Yeah, he picked up on a lot of things that really no one ever has but I

When I say I want to quit the podcast, the podcast... No, I'm just giving you crap. No, no, no. I know. But now that you say that, I am doing the craziest segue of all time. The podcast is becoming an issue for me in my dating life now. Just by the way. I just want to point that out. Like something happened the other day. What kind of issues?

Oh, I told I was I've been talking to this guy and I told a two minute story about like a experience we had. Didn't use his name, nothing. It wasn't even something like rude about him at all. And he called me.

freaking out. If you really cared about this and like took this serious, you wouldn't feel comfortable talking about it publicly to everyone. And oh, oh, oh, and then he said, you're using me for content for the show. Bro, you're not that interesting. You're not.

Exactly. If you were that interesting, I would have, you know, either brought you on or talked to you, talked about you for more than two minutes. But also I'm not, I don't use people for the show. That's what I'm saying. He's over there like jacking off to it. You're dating a podcaster, dude. Yeah. A hundred percent. Please, please. He felt he was. He loved it. He did. He was eating that shit up, but. Yeah. But that's funny. I mean, my old co-host, my old show, Brandon Wardell used to, um,

He used to like talk about his high school bullies and like this old grievances that he would like name drop them like first and last. I'll be like on the show every time I'm back. Sure. I use the government name. He's like, yeah, fuck them. They shouldn't have stolen my Pokemon cards or whatever. And every time there would be like we get some message from some like married dude that's like, hey, I'm so sorry. I don't.

I love your show. I don't remember taking Brandon's Pokemon cards. Like, I'm so sorry. We thought it was a bullet. You know, it'd just be like some sad. It was like 20 years ago. And the guy's like, I didn't even remember. I don't think I took his Pokemon cards.

I'm making up the Pokemon card thing. It would be like that type of grievance where I love so funny. I always finds the person. Well, I love that your friend uses first and last name like let's fucking go. I know. Right. But I'm blast. That's that is actually putting someone blast. But that's funny about the dating life. Yeah. I mean, it's not a huge thing. It was just like a sidebar, like something that I've been kind of thinking about. Like I talk about my life.

So, yeah, if you're part of my life, something, you know, I might acknowledge something and talk about it. What's hard is that it's your life when your show, when the content of your show is about your life, your life has to be interesting to have something to talk about on the show. Yes. And like when we did 500 episodes of Yeah, But Still and like near the end, I mean, Brandon was like a touring comedian. So he had he had stories. But like at the time, I was like heading towards getting married.

mostly just working and becoming not so interesting anymore. You know, where I was like, I didn't have anything to talk about. So it's hard. You have to like mine your life for funny little stories. Yeah. Which I was just thinking about the fact that I just told that story about him getting mad at me for talking about him on the show. And then you have like the ghost podcast guy calling him a pussy. Yeah.

Well, he is. It sounds like it. And I'm talking about him again. Also, this guy's probably in his 40s too. He's... You know what? If I'm clocking you correctly, he's probably like a 42-year-old finance guy. Late 30s. So close. Not a finance guy, but just whatever. You know what? He's no longer. But I've had...

Was it a sensitive story? No. No. It was nothing. And also, I feel like if I'm not giving first and last name and serious. It wasn't like an intimate moment. Thank you. Pause. Thank you. Pause, bro. Why are you listening to Sophia with an F in the first place? Which, by the way, is something I tell people. I'm like, if you could not listen to the show, that would be great.

So perfect. My wife, maybe I was setting him up. She doesn't listen. No. And that's why she's your wife. And that's why she's your wife, because she respected that. And I love her for that, because a lot of people out here don't fucking respect that rule. I am going to tell you about an experience I had. OK, so first of all, I do want to ask you, do you think it's dangerous to have

Play with like a Ouija board. Do a seance. Yes. You do. You think that's like you don't need to open that door. Why would you? I compare it to like if somebody said to you, hey, bro, there's a guy with a gun in that parking garage. Don't go in there. Okay. Like they're either lying to you or there really is a guy.

Why bother going in there? Like you're not going to go in there. It's a lose-lose. Either that guy, you find out that guy's lying, nothing to see. Yeah. Or you're in trouble. Right. So you're saying either something doesn't happen or something does happen that could end very badly. It's not going to be good. Okay.

I was always the bitch by the way. Now I don't. But growing up, I would go to the store in Utah that was downtown that had witchcraft things and spell books and I was, I liked to do that kind of thing. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah.

I never did like a full seance. I wanted to get a Ouija board, but I would Google it online and they were like, you can get it at Toys R Us. And I'm like, if I'm going to buy a Ouija board, it needs to be from a thrift store, a hundred years old behind a cobweb that I wasn't supposed to see. But like I was into that. So I did want to ask you that question, but I've never really gone through with it. My experience was, I'm going to say eight years ago.

I think I know what it might be, but it doesn't matter. So I was at my mom's house. I had fallen asleep and I woke up in the middle of the night and I saw this figure in the corner of the room that was so... It wasn't that it was frightening, although it was terrifying. It was such an evil figure.

presence. Dread. Dread. That is the exact word I would use to describe it. Just complete dread came over me. And I was just, I couldn't move for like a couple minutes. I finally snapped out of it. I turned all the lights on. I was way too scared to go back to bed. Finally, I went back to sleep with the lights on. Woke up again. This time, this figure is on top of my body.

And I feel... And I sound so silly telling this. You're not silly at all. This is extremely common. What he looked like, there weren't really details that I can remember. Just very scary and evil. And it was mostly in the face. Um...

I don't know, like really like long, sharp teeth. I want to say, but I could just like my memory is telling me that maybe I thought that. But he was over my body and I felt the presence of that evilness like consume me like it was like inside of me. And then I was like, oh, shit, am I evil now? Like what's happening? And it took me a few minutes and then I woke up.

I was not the same for like three or four days. Like I was fucking... Yeah, it's terrifying. So scared. I couldn't sleep forever. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Since then, I've had something similar, but no way on that same level or scale happen. I don't... Is that sleep paralysis? Okay, so yeah, they would say that that's sleep paralysis. You couldn't move, right? I could not move. Okay, so...

I'll try to give a short... First, wait, what did it look like? It's hard to remember. It was just like a horrible, evil... It was dark. It was like a black figure. But there weren't really details. From what I can remember, I think it had wings. Actually, to be honest, I think it had wings and I'm not joking. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. I do remember something like that. So here's like... I'll walk you through like my...

like the other world thought process on this stuff, right? Okay, so sleep paralysis. That was one thing that like when I started the show, I was like eliminating everything, right? Because it's like, oh, this is, it's a thing, right? We know what it is. It's when your brain wakes up while your body is still asleep, right? Yeah. And it's very terrifying. You can't move. And they've been researching it, trying to figure out what exactly the cause is, especially why you end up seeing things.

See, that's the part that is weird to me because it's so evil. Yeah, because I, not to do a tangent, but I used to have insomnia and ended up having what's called hypnopompic hallucinations, which is like your brain's so fucked up that you wake up and for a minute or a while, you're walking around and you are seeing shit that's not there. For me, I saw the house on fire. I was like, fight the fire. And then finally, like,

Like and by the way, this is past the point of being like i'm imagining this like like you're you do the test you're Like oh yeah, you're in this so that was trippy For me, right and then sleep paralysis. It's adjacent Um, I know that the brain can do weird things. Um, so I wrote that off. Um People email me all the time about that, but I would just be like, oh, it's look that's scary, but it's sleep paralysis We don't really you know, it's it's explainable but

As time went on and I started learning more about this stuff, we still don't even know what really causes it. And even if it is something that we can't explain, it has happened. It does coincide so much with other paranormal experiences that I've encountered that I've wondered myself like, oh, is this just a medical phenomena that's explainable that's also caused

when something is happening, when something paranormal is happening. But we still don't really know what exactly it is and we don't know why people see those things. There's a lot of theories. One of them that's really interesting, and I don't know if this is going to be proven true because just based on me hearing hundreds of stories about this, I don't know. But one idea is that the part of your brain that's being activated is the part that controls your ego. So they think that you're seeing yourself.

Maybe. No, I like that. They did some studies where they would like... I could be wrong on this. I remember reading a study where they are testing amputees. Somebody, for instance, doesn't have an arm and trying to see if they would see a shadow figure that doesn't have an arm. And I can't remember the results of that, but they're still trying to figure this out. What I found is that...

I've become more open to it because it's like the classic like horseshoe theory, you know where it's like or not horseshoe theory Have you seen that meme where it's like it's like a chart where it's like a dumb guy and then like the it's like an IQ chart where it's like a dumb person like genius and then like the middle ground, you know, okay, um Where like the smart person the dumb person actually like agrees but for different reasons That's kind of how the paranormal is. Um

I feel like the most medium-brained people are the ones that write it off. Yeah. Because when you actually talk to somebody that is very far into their scientific field, they usually believe crazy stuff. Yes. It's just like on their own terms, right? Like they're really open because they know that we don't know. Right. Same with sleep paralysis. Like with my show now, I'll put in all this work to research and stuff and then it's just funny. You encounter somebody that clearly thinks they're dumb or clearly thinks they're smart. It's usually a guy.

They're just like, oh, shocking. That's just their subconscious manifesting their fears. What's that? I'm sorry. Are you able to prove that? Have you figured out what consciousness is? One of the great mysteries of our time that people dedicate their lives to and are continuously coming up with like very wild theories on, especially as like we're developing AI. It's like, what is a subconscious? Yeah. What does that mean?

You don't know what that is? Explain it to me. I don't like anyone that can say something for matter, like matter of factly. That always makes me not really believe someone if they speak that way. I'm always keep it open-ended. Yeah. I don't like to jump to either conclusions on my show. Like where it's like, that was a demon. Like, I don't jump to that. I don't jump to like,

there's always an explanation because we don't know. That's the thing. And a lot of the times people throw the most random shit to explain this stuff away so automatically. Well, yeah. I mean, I kind of did that, right? I mean, I went down a rabbit hole of researching and that was kind of the best thing I could come up with was the sleep paralysis answer. And let me just tell you, this is in my mom's house that my nanny growing up used to tell me was haunted all the time.

also was built on an Indian burial ground in Utah. Just throwing that out there. Is that related? I have no idea. Maybe not. Maybe so. Who knows? But it was the evilness and the dread and the terror that came with it that just has always stuck with me. Yeah. So part of me, the way I look at sleep paralysis is that it can just happen to you

for no reason at all, right? Like, but I do, like, if you're asking me what I think in my gut based on, like, making the show, it could be a symptom, a non-paranormal symptom that could happen during paranormal situations. Does that make sense? Yes, yes. Where it's like,

Because I mean I've done some like deep Like there's a reason why I've like kind of come out the other side with this Because like there's a few things that people see in sleep paralysis One of them is this thing called the night hag like the old hag. It's this woman, right? And like I have this episode I think it's called the night hag I think but it's this kid or he's a man now but like when he was a kid he would like be terrorized by this thing for eight hours at a time and she would try to like break into his chest and

And so I knew that there was a lot of folklore around this thing. But me and my friend, Joshua Citarella, shout out to Josh. He's one of the best researchers I know and a really interesting artist and all sorts of things. Anyway, a very smart man. We both dove into essentially studies, scholarly papers on this folklore. And we started to find that like

Every single culture almost every single culture on the world has some version of this woman to people see In fact, it goes back so far that the word nightmare actually refers to this. Oh, wow Yeah, like the mayor that was like, um the old Germanic version of it and it's like this Demonic woman that like appears at night where you're paralyzed this relates to sleep paralysis, right? So if it was that firm and it's always the same things

So for me, even with like my scientific brain on or like anthropological brain, if you're like, if you're one of those people that's like, oh, it's just your fear is manifesting itself. Okay. Why would the fear be exactly the same over centuries and even appearing in completely isolated tribes? Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go.

So whether you're playing a game at home. Yes, go. Or attending one live. Go. You can do more without spending more. Learn how to save at Cox.com slash internet. Cox Internet is connected to the premises via coaxial cable. Cox Mobile runs on the network with unbeatable 5G reliability as measured by UCLA LLC in the U.S. to H2023. Results may vary, not an endorsement of the restrictions apply.

I'm

So don't wait any longer. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now.

and listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at iXLLearning.com slash audio. Visit iXLLearning.com slash audio to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Which leads me to my next fucked up point is that there's this group called the Hmong people that were kind of like roped into Vietnam by the United States to fight for us and like,

you know, everybody, we were roping everybody in. Yeah. And, um, they were not treated very well. We of course lost that war. So anybody that was living there, uh, things were not going well for them after. And we allowed a lot of them to escape, um, and seek refuge in the United States. And, um, when the Hmong people came here, a lot of them started dying suddenly in their sleep. And I'm not making this up. You could like this up. Okay. So they started, they started to, uh,

die suddenly in their sleep and when you know the government because they were helping the United States and they are refugees like we actually threw a lot of resources at this because it's like why are they dying is it is it because we use ancient orange or whatever like you know I think that's probably why they're so concerned but

They went and investigated and they're interviewing people and every time they would speak to family members or even people who survived these sudden unexplained deaths, they would say it was this entity called Da Cho. I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing that wrong, guys. But, and they explained it's this vengeful entity that targets the head of the household and when they're living in, you know, in Southeast Asia,

Because this group lives all over the place, not just in Vietnam. So when they were living there, they were able to practice their traditional religion. And it's a lot harder to do that in America. Not only that, they're joining churches just to fit in. So they weren't doing their normal practices to prevent Dacho from coming. And now they're left vulnerable. And over 100 people died in their sleep from this.

And it was this woman that would come and get them at night. And like, I know this sounds crazy. This actually inspired some movies in the eighties. Very like, I think a nightmare on Elm street was inspired by this, but they still haven't figured it out. Like they're still investing in it and like, they didn't have heart attacks. They're they named, they, they named it sudden unexplained nocturnal death syndrome. And like, they're still trying to figure it out. There's theories. Um, but like, even from a scientific perspective, like,

if you're a person that like believes in evolution and stuff it's like what would be the evolutionary benefit of dying by imagining something right like you can imagine something in your head that's so scary that you die that's doesn't make any sense that that so that that was when like me and josh when we were like diving into that i was like

This is crazy. I want to look into it. It's the Hmong people. Yeah, I'll send you all this stuff. Okay, please do. And so we're reading academic papers on this. Right. That we had to pay money to access. Right. This is not like we're not on 4chan looking at this stuff. These are... We're citing scholarly... Peer-reviewed... Yeah. Yes. And so I'm not saying that the Night Hag is necessarily this being, but...

The point is like you can't just like write things off so easily and be like, oh they're imagining it. It's like this is more than that. You don't just get to toss some dumb ass explanation of things, right? Yes. And people do all the time and minimize it. I think like I legitimately do hope we figure out what some of the stuff is, but we're not going to if we just keep ignoring it, right? We just keep writing it off. Yeah, and I think people talk about things. Everybody assumes there's a smarter guy, right? There's like

this imaginary smarter guy or girl, right? Oh, like there's people figuring this stuff out. Like, yeah, there's not. There's an explanation for that somewhere. There's not a guy. There's not. There's often not. Or if you talk to that person, they're like, man, it's kind of crazy. I don't know. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Or they'll give you the official answer. But then when the mic turns off, they'll be like, a lot of those people are weird, too. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Like when you really talk to people that are like far into their field of like studying consciousness, like neurosurgery, stuff like that. They got. They'll give you the doctor answer. But then when the mic turns off, like they'll get weird with you. Right. Like they'll be like, but like just just man to man, not on the record. Like I don't know how to explain X, Y, Z. There's a lot of stuff that like we just don't know yet. And maybe I really maybe we will figure it out and it'll be.

really boring answer. Something that we could replicate, right? I feel like there can't be. Maybe we will. But I don't talk matter of fact, so maybe, I don't know. Yeah, but for me, that's like, that's the funny thing from doing this show is like seeing the stupid shit. Like, I...

I saw somebody like tag me in some shit today about like a five-part series I did where like multiple people are seeing like lamps like fly and like you know and somebody tagged me in some post being like this is very obviously a carbon monoxide leak like people should like and it's like one the family owns a fucking construction company uh-huh and like builds houses like they have carbon monoxide detectors that was the first thing they checked uh-huh secondly like

carbon monoxide leaks don't make chairs fly across the fucking ground. You know, like, what are you talking about? And in fact, like, I recently talked to a couple people who have had carbon monoxide poisoning about their symptoms, and it's definitely weird, but it does not explain...

All of the things that people use to explain it same with like black mold people are always like black mold black mold. Yeah Where's the evidence that black mold does any of this stuff to you? The jury's still out on a lot of that like people it can make you sick for sure. Yes It's not gonna make you think your wife is floating, right? Right, right or like it's not gonna make stuff like break burst into flames like

That's just, you know. Yes. Infrasound. I've heard that like really low wave frequencies that might be doing something to the brain. That actually I'm kind of interested in that. But like if that's true, let's replicate it because I want to try. Like make me see a ghost with sound. Let's go. I would love...

If anybody can do that and replicate it, like, let's go. Hit me up. Because, like, we could make a fucking killing around Halloween. Yeah. And I'll let you in on this, too. Please do. Please do. Same with, you know, all of these things where people are like, oh, it's obviously this. Let's replicate it. Right? Because, like, if we could put headphones on a person and make them see a ghost, like, let's do it. Let's make a lot of money. Right. But...

We don't know yet. What do you think about those various machines that they'll use on shows that can pick up frequencies? Mixed feelings. You're talking about the spirit boxes where it rotates through channels, or EMF machines.

You know what? I don't know enough about it. I just feel like they go in and they're like, it can pick up sounds or like voices that we couldn't hear. That is interesting. I mean, I've had some stuff. I've had people send me stuff that they've picked up some interesting recordings, but like.

If we're talking about like what I actually think about all of this like my full-on Galaxy brain take is that I think a lot of this is part about part of our consciousness that we don't quite fully understand or maybe it's evolving a bit Like maybe these are things that we could perceive like an extra sensory perception Okay, whatever this stuff is even if it's just momentarily happening and we can momentarily perceive it therefore

you might not be able to pick that up on a camera. Right. That's a really interesting take. Isn't it? I'm going to fuck up this so bad. We only use 20% of our brains. I made up to 20%. Something like that. I'm certainly no scientist, but, you know, I mean, we don't see, our eyes don't see in 3D. Yeah. That's like our brain translates it into three-dimensional. Right. And same with sound. Like your brain, your brain has to like learn to use sound

its senses. It's ultimately just detecting vibrations like waves. Light waves, sound waves, and like a small fraction of it. Animals can see a lot of different things that we can't. So part of me thinks like maybe we're briefly detecting something and our brain's confused, right? When you talk, when you, people when they get like implants, deaf people when they get implants that allows them to hear,

It's really bad at first. It's like static, but then our brain learns to use it. Oh, okay. And it eventually gets like pretty good. So if you did have like some part of your brain you could perceive something else, if it like turned on briefly, it would be really bad and horrifying and confusing. Right? So that's kind of like my...

Galaxy brain version of it. I think all of this is so fascinating. And I think your show is I can't even get over like the couple of things you told me. I'm so excited. I didn't even get to tell you the things I was going to planning on telling you here. Some funny ones, but. OK, well, we'll have to do a part two. I mean, do you have a quick funny one? Like a ghost stealing a ****?

I have a funniest one. I misplace my more than anything and I swear to God there has to be. I don't think it's me every time. The ghost stuff I've heard with that is not losing but actually bringing stuff back. Like people will like that live alone. I've heard instances of somebody like there'll be things in this place and then all of a sudden it's like folded. Like the shit's like folded. Okay well that's fucking creepy. Like my vape is all of a sudden charging. Um.

Okay, one funny story. I got this email really early on and it was this guy and it said I was sexually assaulted by a jinn, which is like a Muslim malevolent spirit or spirit. I don't know if everybody thinks they're malevolent. And then the email was like, it jerked me off until my penis hurt. I'm not lying. And then it was signed Kareem. And I was like,

Alright, like annoying, like I was like, okay bro, like funny, delete, moved on with my life. Anyway, I'm like four months later, I'm at some dinner with a bunch of like media people in LA and I'm late, I'm like sitting next, you know, I arrive late, they're already eating, sit next to this guy, like start chatting, I don't know anybody.

And like we're becoming buds and getting to know each other and then like we're like near the tail end of things. We're like gonna get the check almost and he like turns to me and he's like, by the way, you never responded to my email. Oh my fuck. And I was like, what? And he's like, I'm Kareem. And I was like, you're Kareem? And I'm like, were you joking? And he's like, no. And he's like really serious. And by the way, this guy's like an actor.

And like he hosts like people might know who he is. His name is Kareem Rama. Okay. Hosts a show called I'm blanking because I'm like laughing about this story right now. But he hosts like Subway takes, you know, the show Subway takes. No. Okay. Well, he interviews people on the New York subway. It's like very popular. The other ones keep the meter running where he like interviews cab drivers. He's like a very funny guy.

like famous guy okay and um and he was not fucking around not fucking around and he ends up telling me this story that like people say is the scariest episode to me it's still like kind of funny because like i i'm still in shock and he's like sitting there telling me this about like that this entity like did he come i don't know if he i can't remember but i asked him that's a very no but like so it was always a little funny to me but it's like really not funny and it's

It's the one where people are like always tell me like, oh, I had to turn it off. I had to turn it off. But like, OK, what's that episode called? Kareem and the Jen. Kareem and the Jen. But it was so funny because like it was just you wrote it so shocking to meet this person at this like dinner full of like tech reporters and fucking like, yeah. And you were like, I thought you were joking. He's like, no, I thought he was pranking me. And then he ends up telling me like the scariest story about this like saga in his life.

that is horrifying and like still scares him. And now he's like this comedian and like very funny dude. Okay. Fuck. That was funny. I witnessed like an exorcism in Erewhon or like something, you know, that is a, an exorcism in Erewhon. Something. It was a weird moment in my life. You witnessed it yourself. Okay. Well we need to run and go listen to your show. Other world where you can find anywhere you can find podcasts. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um,

The Instagram is at Otherworldpod. And then your Instagram. My Instagram is at Versace underscore Tamagotchi. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that. That was a boy's Instagram handle. I know. I saw that and I was like. Should I change it? I'm going to share it up online.

No, no, no. I mean, it's kind of it's now it's iconic. I think now it needs to stay. People would be mad. Yeah, people would absolutely be mad if you changed it. But this was fascinating. I want to do a part two. I would like to end it on a note that I did see a bat outside my window. I live on the 60th floor of my apartment building last night.

That's so that's classic. That's like classic spooky. How pissed would you be if I wrote that into your show? That would be sick. I always like because I'm still I still am like a goofball. So I always think of dumb ideas like

I always think about doing an episode where it's people getting scared by like classic Halloween stuff. Like I saw a pumpkin floating down the street. Right, right, right, right. I saw a skeleton. Also a bat is, I mean, I think a bat we can say is a living, breathing animal that has been proven. They're spooky. They're spooky, but it's a... Oh yeah, you didn't know the bats were real. Could you believe it? Imagine that was my story I came with. I swear I saw one. I did not think I would ever...

Yeah, explain that. I know it was not a bird in a costume. I know for a fact. And you guys know where to find me. So if you have an F, Franklin with a Y, I'll talk to you next week. Jack, thank you so, so much for having me. Thanks for having me. This was really fun. This was so much fun. I could have talked to you for hours. Thanks, Floots. Bye. See you guys.