Hilarie Burton Morgan: Is Spinster Chic 52:58

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I remember a casting director telling me after an audition, you know what's great about you is that you're just like average, like your teeth are crooked and you've got one eye bigger than the other. And it makes girls at home feel better. And I was like, cool. Okay. I think she put it up my acne too. And I was like, great. I love being relatable. Somebody got to cue me or do I cue myself? Cue yourself. Okay. Hey guys, we're back with another episode of Let's Talk Off Camera. So let's get talking.

I'm going to say it again.

I don't think I'll be able to control myself. Our guest today is so exciting. We've had her husband on. Yes. Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Yes. AKA JDM. JDM. JDM. Yes. We tried getting him to Sausage Fest and it didn't work. Didn't work. Well, did you send the invite? Yeah. No. No. There you go. Next year. Next year. You know, you can't expect somebody to show up if they don't know the time, the place.

Anyway, we have JDM's Better Half.

HBM. HBM, yeah. Yes, yes. She's not Hilary Dean Morgan. She's Hilary Burton Morgan. Yes. She's written a fabulous – a second fabulous book. Yeah. She's a great storyteller and she's good at everything. She is what I like to think of as the – if there was an upside down world of me, that would be like in the upside down, I'm Hilary Burton Morgan and I'm good at everything. Yeah.

But in the right side up world where I live, I can barely get my shoes on my own feet. I can see why you guys are friends though. Like it's – she's awesome. I love them. Yeah. As a couple, individually, you know, I just think she's –

a good girl. Yeah. You know what I like about her? I like that she's like honest about real things. I can't stand women or anyone who like aren't honest. Or just like pretend everything's always perfect at all times and like it makes me nuts. Well people by the way

People accuse me of doing that. They're like, oh, Kelly pretends everything is amazing on the air. And I'm like, have they ever seen my show? I've read articles about this, how I pretend my life is perfect. And I go, what?

clickbait headline is this clickbait headline based on. Because anybody that has seen my show or certainly looked at my social media in any real way realizes that it's the opposite of that. It's like a mess. But here's the thing. I know this from all the years of being friends with you. Like you're

so brutally honest when it comes to anything going on in your life. And it makes everybody like, as I always say, like the more you share, the more you realize things are normal. And like, you've made me feel so normal in certain situations that I've come to you with. And it's just like, to me, I think that that's like a real person. I can't stand, you know, when people don't talk about things. And she talks about everything, which I love about her.

Exactly. She's ready? She's ready. Oh, my gosh. This is so exciting. We were just bragging about her and saying how great she was. Oh, my gosh. Look how pretty. Wow.

You look so gorgeous. Wait, come here. Come here. You look pretty. Hello, Albert. No, I don't. Yes, you do. You should have been logged on like three minutes ago where we were raving about you. Well, it's all relative. Like there are people that think I'm terrible. Yeah, but they're assholes and they're not very bright. These are not very smart people. That's all right. Okay, so I'm just going to get to your intro and we'll go right into it. Love it.

I may have to put my peepers on because I'm so blind now. That's the best thing about podcasting though. Like I do this shit in my pajamas. I was in a bathrobe yesterday working. I put on a sweater for you but if you could have seen me. You did. You dressed up. I did. I love it. You can tell. When I was in my pajamas

When I really love someone, I put on. Usually she's in a ratty t-shirt. You know what? Also, I put on a bra. Oh, man. That's a real token of love. I think I put on a bra for you and Anderson Cooper. Well, listen, that's good company. Okay. She's an actor, Albert. A producer like yourself. A podcaster like yourself. A

A farmer like Jan. Yeah, right. A liquor distiller like Seth over there. I tasted her liquor. A candy shop owner, not like me, but I'm a candy shop taster. Connoisseur.

She's an activist. She's a New York Times bestselling author. For her book, The Rural Diaries, her second book, Grimoire Girl, Creating an Inheritance of Magic and Mischief, is out now. I predict a second bestseller. Please welcome Hilary Burton. Morgan. Morgan.

Pro the Morning. HBM. HBM. HBM. Oh, man. You're the best. Seriously, you go all out making people feel good. And I know that's a lot of energy. No, no, no, no, no. I don't do it often just for the ones who really deserve it. I don't do it all the time. We were just talking about this before you signed on. What Jan and I really connect to with you is that

We have a lot of honesty in our lives and in our inner circles. And what we connect to with you as a person and in your writing is that you don't sugarcoat anything and you are completely honest. It really, really resonates with people. Don't you agree? There's so much bullshit out there. I think you and I came up hosting at the same time, like in the early 2000s, where it was like,

Every pop star, every actor on the planet came through and their lives were perfect. And everything was so sparkly because there was no social media yet to dispel anything. And then we would watch when the camera stopped rolling and we'd be like, oh, wow.

Like some of these people are terrible, you know, and terrible. Yeah. And their circles were largely made up of yes men and not people that were honest with them. And so I think the knee jerk reaction is to just run in the opposite direction and be like, ah, fuck it. We're going to be really messy. With this like a new world order of social media, I find that the –

Artifice is even greater now than it used to be. Yeah, well, I mean, people are picking and choosing from their own life what they want to share. And then, you know, you've got like paparazzi or just like people standing by with cameras to ruin that at every turn. I don't know. I think part of the toxicity of the early 2000s where I worked on a show where there were a number of girls and it was very clear that I wasn't the pretty one.

Right. Like that was just the marching or Sophia Bush was the pretty one. And she is. But it relieved me of the weight of having to try to live up to that. And so I always got to be the snarky one. I got to be the funny one. I got to be.

All these other labels that don't require as much maintenance. You know what I mean? Like, all right. No, I was the same. When I was on the soap, I was the oddball girl. And then every role I went out for after that was the oddball girl role. And I said I would much rather be the funny, weird one than the pretty one because that's a lot of pressure.

But it's so funny. I'm like looking at Hillary, who is the most gorgeous. You know, you would have been the gorgeous one on all my children. The gorgeous one. It's a different thing. Like living in L.A., I felt like there was this crazy standard that I could never live up to. And I remember a casting director telling me after an audition that,

She was like, you know what's great about you is that you're just like average, like your teeth are crooked and you've got one eye bigger than the other. And it makes girls at home feel better. And I was like, cool. Okay. I think she pointed out my acne too. And I was like, great. I love being relatable.

But when that stuff is in your ear as a young person, it changes how you prioritize self. And so I knew that I didn't have to be pretty because if I was smart or I just like worked harder than anybody else, then I'd be fine.

And so work ethic wins out in the long game. It always does. That is a theme of this podcast. Every woman, man, actor, author, doctor, they all say the same thing. It's the workers that sort of rise to the top. So you can have all these other gifts. You can have all this other stuff. But if you don't have that internal drive, that work ethic, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

It's for nothing. So, you know, in your intro, I was like talking about you as, you know, your actor, producer, podcaster, farmer, liquor distiller, candy shop owner, activist. It sounds like I have a problem where I can't keep a job. So I just keep...

You know those people that have crazy resumes where they just like bounce around? They're like, I'll work at every store in the mall. But if you could only do one, like what is your favorite title? Besides, obviously I know Mother and Wife. I know that. We're putting that off to the side. Because that's like your- We're going to put PTSO on the side. PTSO. Yeah, our Parent Teacher Student Organization. I am the middle school representative. What? Yeah.

It's probably the biggest. It's like my entire personality right now. Everything I'm doing is PTSD oriented and I love it. Wait, so is that an elected position? Did you have to run? No, I just started asking too many questions last year because my son was having a lot of trouble in middle school and we couldn't diagnose what the problem was. And so I started asking all these questions and I got invited to coffee by a mother and she's like, fantastic. You're in charge of the middle school now. And I was like,

What are you talking about? Like, why? But why do you have to be in charge of the middle school just to get a question answered? It's so exhausting. There's been no one that's wanted to do it, especially in the post-pandemic age.

where there's just like a vacuum and no one knows how to pick up the ball and run with it. And so I'm like thinking of all the film things that we can bring to it. I'm like, we need a set dresser and we need a costumes department to come in and bring some spirit to this school. I don't know. I like doing all that. But if it's me all by myself and I have to think about the thing I get most excited to do,

It is writing. Like I like hiding out in a room. I like doing the research. I like making a whole outline and then handwriting out every single word and then typing it out. So it sounds exactly like I want, you know, like I'm, I think after working in television for so long where you can put in a performance, but the final product is up to the discretion of the editor and the director and the producers and so many other people. Um,

The start to finish of books is exciting for me because I can control it. You're really good at it too. You have this ability to weave together your stories in a beautifully succinct, profound way. How do you know when to stop? Or have you ever gone too far and written something that you regretted revealing? Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I wrote Rural Diaries...

It was split into two parts and the entire first part went into deep detail of my One Tree Hill years and the toxicity and some really dark stuff. And I turned it in and my publisher was like, hey, we love the second half at the point where you're just like at the farm. Right. Do you really want to get into all of that?

especially as your first book. And I was like, no, like I had to write it out once just to get it out of my system and then burn it. Like, I don't need to ever deal with that again. Like I've dealt with it in so many other capacities. And so my book just became a celebration of all of the choices that I was in control of, as opposed to the ones that were being made for me.

I originally wrote this book when I was like 26 years old. And this has been the thing that's been fun to reveal on the book tour. People are like, "Oh, how'd you sit down and write this book?"

And I had written it when I was in my 20s living in this super haunted house and it was called "Spinster Chic" and it was all of these like magical... - Spinster Chic. - I wrote "Spinster Chic" because I could not envision a lifestyle where like a man would wanna live with a witch like me, you know? Like all the weird stuff I'm into like candle magic and moon ceremonies and the paper mail and all that kind of stuff.

No one was going to want to marry me. And so there's chapters in this book that are 100% lifted from those journals. And I gave pictures of them to my publisher and they're on like the website for the book. I might post them on social media too, just so people can see. Yeah, you definitely should. I like didn't change a word. Yeah, that's amazing. It's cool. But it was also crazy to sit down and compile them.

those sections and all the old journals while also living through very real grief that incorporated itself into the book. And so as I'm compiling all of these life lessons and magical thinking elements, I lost Markie Post and I lost Willie Garson and then I lost my neighbor, you know, and all of those losses really added up and changed the texture of the book. In the beginning of the book, you talk about

about your childhood and sort of the disconnectivity of your family. Do you ever get nervous about stuff like that? Yeah, for sure. For sure. Because I don't know them. You know, like I think the last time I saw most of my dad's side of the family, I was 11. And then my mom's side of the family, I haven't been to see them since I went to a funeral like 20 years ago. And so I don't, I don't know anybody.

And so there's a freedom in that because there's nothing bad to say because I don't know them other than to say,

I don't know 99% of them. And that's okay. And I think that's what I want to normalize is that we're told there's this narrative like blood, blood, blood is thicker than water. Blood is thicker than water. And for the people that don't have that, for the people who come from potentially toxic families or broken homes or whatever, the ability to pick your loved ones and pick your village is so important. I

I wish you could see that we're sitting around this table and everybody is silently going. Everybody's nodding because we're all very lucky that we have like great chosen families, families that we're like not blood relatives, but we sure feel that way, you know? Yeah, I feel lucky that in all these different chapters, because, you know, we've

We're transient people. We've had lots of different homes. You find these magic people that just become like aunts and uncles overnight. You know, when my neighbor, Rabbi George, passed away, his sister wrote me and was like, he loved you like a daughter. He never had kids of his own. And I never thought that he looked at me that way. I knew that I looked at him as a relative. But to be validated in that way, to know that he cared about me in that way, I

I want to encourage people to do more of that sharing while people are alive so that it's not a surprise when they're, you know, no longer with us. Yeah, it's funny. Mark and I had to go to a 50th birthday party. This is years ago.

And we'd never like left our kids – like we'd never left our kids alone. And I think we had maybe for one weekend once we wound up getting pregnant with Joaquin and then we were like we're never going away without the kids again because every time we do we get pregnant. So we left our kids for – I think it was a three-day weekend with Albert and his partner Kyle. And our kids started –

First of all, they did more in one weekend with their gay uncles. They went to 15 Broadway shows. They had dinner at... Balthazar. Balthazar. Of course. They had oysters. They went to whatever the Brooklyn Food Festival was. Oh, yeah. What's it? Smorgasburg? Smorgasburg. My kids were changed people. And there became this discussion about...

if you and dad ever die, can we live with Albert and Kyle? It became like this sort of open discussion.

And have your kids selected who they want to live with in the event of your untimely death? Yeah. So my kid's uncle, Uncle Nick, Nick was my writing partner in my early 20s. And he and I lived together in this haunted house. And when I met Jeffrey, there was someone else who was courting me too. And Nick and I sat down at my kitchen table and Nick was like, you like that actor, we're going

We're going to go with the actor. And I was like, fine. Okay, great. So Nick has been a part of our life since before. Wait, wait, wait.

You have to stop. Who else was courting you? It's like a dude I worked with in Wilmington. It was like a crew member. Just like a civilian guy. It was a civilian, and he was lovely. Like a perfectly lovely person. But Nick saw me like doodling JDM on corners of paper and was like, oh, God, Hillary. Just do it. Just do it. Because Jeffrey had invited me to come visit him in New Mexico. And I was like, no, I'm not going to go.

Oh, we know this story. Well, Uncle Nick was the reason I went for it. He was like, just do it. Go have a sexy time and tell me everything. Yeah. You got to be careful with those away trips. I know. That's how babies are made. Baby, every time anybody... Baby was made. What's so funny is every time...

I go away now. My daughter's like, don't get pregnant, which is very funny because my daughter is so provocative. And I was like, yeah, don't worry about it. Don't you get pregnant. How about that? Jeffrey just said we had a book tour event this weekend. And he says in front of this like sold out theater of like a thousand people, something about like, well, maybe we'll have another kid. And everyone starts clapping. And I'm like, no.

We're done. Girl, kitchen is closed. No, we did a good job with the two. You did a great job. They're phenomenal. But you just had your – so you celebrated your four-year anniversary, but you've been together like way longer than that. 15 years. So what took you so long to just pull the plug, pull the trigger? What's the – what is the expression? Seal the deal. Seal the deal. Seal the deal. Give in. Put a ring on it. Yeah.

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So what took you so long to just pull the plug, pull the trigger? Give in. Yes, give in. Yes. I think we were both really independent people. And so we had like a good thing going, but we had very different ideas of what marriage was. Because Jeffrey's parents were divorced and my parents were still together, but I had a very conservative upbringing. And so my...

vision for marriage, especially when we first met, was very influenced by my upbringing. And he was like, what are you talking about? All right. Like, let's just have a nice life. Right. And so then at a certain point, you know, like six or seven years in, it kind of flip flopped. And then all of a sudden he got really serious about getting married. And I was the one that was like, I don't know, we're good. And then something happened after our daughter was born. And we

You've been in a relationship, but you also go through phases where you just really click in. And all of a sudden it's like, I loved you before, but there's something deeper here now. And there's just a connection and a partnership here now that is my safest place. And the idea of getting married is...

in the city with our kids, with us, was really appealing. And having Jeffrey carry George down the aisle and have Gus at his side, like all of that just meant so much to us, not just as a couple, but as a whole family unit. And I wanted my kids to have that memory. I had opinions about marriage, but I wanted my kids to know that

I love their father more than I love my opinions, you know, like that. I just, I, I pick him.

Um, and, and so they even were all right. We're all writing this down for some reason. I, uh, I love, I mean, there were almost as many kids at the wedding as there were grownups. Like we had balloons and, you know, magic tricks. And I think in the pictures that we've posted online, you can see I'm wearing flower crowns and stuff that the little girls had made. Like it was basically a kid's birthday party where, um,

We got married. Where two people got married. And we had a tattoo artist. Yeah. Amazing. That's amazing. It's grown up art. So.

And so do they, because George was so little, does she have memories of it? She has a sense memory of it. Like, yeah, right. Anytime we go to the Bowery Hotel, she knows. Like, I, she knows the colors, you know, like there's this green tile and like green velvet in that hotel. And there's like coral upholstery on the furniture. And,

And in each room, they have like a leather ottoman that's like a rhinoceros or a hippopotamus. And we got one for our apartment. And so she has the sense memory of like,

Those things equal love to her. Those things equal party. And I like that she has that. Yeah, it's really – I don't know if your kids have done this yet and it's kind of easier for your kids because they are a generation born amongst smartphones. My kids now will say, can we watch home movies? Aww.

And they like to watch. If they all come home, say it's Thanksgiving and they're all home. Yeah. Can we watch home movies? And they will watch hours and hours of themselves. My daughter is really funny. She's like, how could you stand it? How did you stand me constantly arguing with me? Because my daughter from a little age was extraordinarily opinionated. Extraordinarily. She had a lot of opinions. Yeah.

All the time. Girls need to. Yes. And we did not squash that at all. But there's like, she's like, can I watch my old ballet recital? And I was like, go for it. And there she is. Everybody's turning in their little tutus. And she's standing there with her hands on her hips, just standing there, staring at the other girls, not moving. And then she turns, sees me with the camera and goes, no.

Stop it, Mommy! That's the whole recital. Meanwhile, all the mothers are like, what does she do at home to stress this child out? Exactly. The horror. So do you have those moments yet? Yeah, yeah. Because the kids are super different in age. You know, Gus is 13 and George is 5. So George is mystified watching videos of her brother as like a baby. Like that's hilarious to her that he's like,

that he ever would run around naked. My kids love naked videos. - Naked. - Those are funny. - My kids were naked until literally my in-laws who are from Europe

You know, my father-in-law's Mexican, my mother-in-law's Italian, but they were like, you really need to put clothes on these kids now. Like, truly, because I was just, I let them be naked. George, if she could still have her way, is still just like, I'm fine. I don't need clothes. Those are ridiculous. Yeah. You know, we've lived in rural places always, and so there's no neighbors. So all the stuff that you and I grew up with, with like, ooh, put your britches on. There might be peeping Toms, you know? Yeah, right. My kids don't have to worry about that. And like,

the walk from the house to the pool is just like, ah, forget it. We'll just go naked. Yeah. We don't need it. We don't. Yeah. They, what are the, the donkeys aren't going to judge us. Aren't going to say anything. Every once in a while, there's like a, like an Amazon delivery guy that shows up at the wrong time. And I'm like, um, but for the most part, there's been a lot of freedom here and they, they enjoy each other. Like my kids, Gus really loves videos of George, um,

There was a thing when she was really little. Anytime we asked her to say da-da, she would just throw up. And we teased Jeffrey so bad, we're like, she hates you, dude. And so we have so many videos of being like, do you want to say da-da? And she'd go, bleh.

Amazing. And they're great videos. Jeffrey, like, has one where he's holding her. And he's like, hey, will you say da-da? And she just, like, vomits all over him. Yeah. It's an anointing, by the way. So that's the kind of stuff the Morgan kids dig. But you're also, like, you've been so honest about, like, postpartum depression and miscarriages. And that stuff is so hard to be honest about.

I had no idea. Like, I feel like we were so gaslit, especially me. Like, I was the kid that because I was in a really conservative household was opted out a family life education. Right. Oh, a hundred. Yes. A hundred percent. We're also of that generation where it's like we had a don't ask, don't tell policy about everything. Like you just don't.

don't speak of such things. You'll figure it out in the moment was kind of the mantra. And if you can't figure it out, then just don't do it. Right. And so for me, I, in a million years would have never anticipated that I would have postpartum because I was

I was such a Pollyanna, right? Like I could make the best out of anything. I did natural childbirth because I refused to feel pain, you know, like there was no way I was going to get postpartum. And, and,

I did not at first hire a baby nurse because I was determined to do everything myself. And then Jeffrey had to leave. So I was going to be 100% by myself with a two week old baby in Los Angeles where I didn't know anybody. And so we got a recommendation for this baby nurse and it became very apparent very quickly that she was taking care of me.

Like my baby was going to be fine. She was there to make sure that I ate and showered and like did all the things. And I was so ashamed that I had to hire a person to take care of me. Like that was humiliating. You really felt that way? Because I didn't, I had never heard about baby nurses until Jan Shalais right over here. I had my third child. Yeah.

And Jan said, who was your baby nurse? Did you have a good baby nurse that you could recommend? And I said – she was about to give birth to her first. And I said, you mean my labor and delivery nurse? And she was okay. And Jan goes, no, your baby nurse. Who was your baby nurse? And I had never heard of this. I'd never heard of it. Yeah.

So I thought Jan had invented a new thing. I was like, that's a great business opportunity. Yeah, let's start an app. Let's be baby nurses or let's wrangle women to be baby nurses and then they can go home with women and take care of them and like put the baby on a feeding schedule and all of that stuff that is so impossible to do when you're exhausted. Well, you've just gone through surgery or trauma. Yeah.

Who else comes out of surgery and is like, all right, well, let's jump into it, you know? Exactly. But you felt guilty of having that service. I was humiliated because I did not come from a world where that was done. And it meant that I was a weaker woman for getting this help. And at a certain point, a couple years later, it just pissed me off. You know, like I was just like, I'm not...

I'm not a weak, like I'm a good mom. I don't know why I was. You're an amazing mom. I don't know why I felt so bad about this. If you don't have the infrastructure, if you don't have the relatives or the friend circle where you are, like I can't imagine I was the only woman that was on a bit of an island dealing with this.

So if we can normalize it. Yeah. I will say this. I think all women who have given birth will tell you that they are on an island. I don't care what the support system is. Like my in-laws moved in with us. And I felt like I was on an island because I didn't recognize –

My body, I was on the soap and I had to go back to work nine days after. No! Nine days. Oh, Kelly, that's brutal. Oh, it was brutal. It was brutal. And then the wardrobe people were like, we thought you'd be smaller by now. And I was like, well...

I'm not going to be smaller anytime soon. I don't know much, but here's what I do know. This looks like it's going to be here for a while. I'm not in any rush. Well, and the race to like get what's normal after, you know, like get back to normal, get back to normal. I had much more trouble getting back to normal after George, after my daughter, because I was –

you know, eight, nine years older than when I'd given birth to my son. And whereas my pregnancy with my son was really kind of stressful, right? Because when you're a first time mom and I was out of a job for the first time in my life and I had to move cross country and there were so many stress factors.

When I had George, I was actually in like a pretty good place. So I definitely laid it on thick with the pregnancy. I was like, this is delicious. I want 10, you know, like I had a great pregnancy. But then like after the fact was like, oh, yeah.

all right, I don't know how to do this with a baby. Like, I don't know how to get my act together with a baby. I could probably do it if I didn't have a baby, but she's the priority. I had a real mantra for myself because with all three of my kids...

I had severe food aversions. Really? But the foods I ate, I ate a lot of. So with Michael, I would eat entire bags of lemon and limes with the skins on them. What? Whatever that means, I don't know. Like eat them like an apple? Like an apple. Oh, you weirdo. I love it. Weirdo, weirdo.

With my daughter, like the smell of everything revolted me. I would eat very small bits of toast with butter. Like I had very strange food aversions. But here's the fascinating thing. This is why I always say, I'm like, doesn't matter what you eat when you're pregnant, your body's going to do what it's going to do. Because I gained 68 pounds with Michael. Yeah.

I gained 55 pounds with Lola and I gained 50 pounds with Joaquin. They all weighed exactly the same. They were all the same length. They all looked exactly the same. But when I got pregnant with Joaquin,

I had just had Lola. Yeah. And they were like, didn't you notice you were gaining weight? And I was like, gaining weight from what? I haven't taken the baby weight. Yeah, it's still here. Like, I still looked pregnant. Like, I was still pregnant looking. How far apart are they in age? 16 months. Oh, my God. Can't believe it.

It was crazy. I was so mad at him. I don't know why I blamed him. It's kind of his fault. It is kind of his fault. Oh, yeah. That's rough. With George, I wanted mustard constantly. And the only thing that you can really put mustard on that's easy when you're running around is hot dogs. And so I was on a hot dog diet with my kid. Yeah. It just...

I mean, it was nine months of like three hot dogs a day every day. It's amazing. Gross. That's an amazing diet. Listen, they're delicious. What do you want from me? You know, Jeffrey told us that after he read Rural Diaries, he cried. Like he had an actual –

a real cry after he read it. And he didn't like read it before. He didn't read any chapters before. He just sat down with the book and read it and cried. What was his reaction when he read this book? ♪

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Staying hydrated is so important. It helps me with my energy, my sleep, my skin, and my mood. Keep yourself hydrated and refreshed the way I do with Fiji water. Did you know that Fiji water really is from the islands of Fiji? It's true. Unlike some other top premium bottled waters,

Fiji water's electrolytes are 100% naturally occurring. Visit your local retailer to pick up some today for your next backyard party, beach, or pool day, hike, or even your home office. It's not just water. It's Fiji water. Jeffrey told us that after he read Rural Diaries, he had a real cry. What was his reaction when he read this book? He cried again. Uh.

He finished it on Friday because we had an event on Sunday and he had started it over the summer. And I think he was nervous it was going to be as revealing as Rural Diaries. And I think he just didn't know what parts of our life I was going to dissect this time. And he's always been really supportive about letting me say what I need to say and get it out of my system. Yeah.

But it's his privacy too. So I think there was a little bit of nervousness like, okay, where are we going on this trip? And if he asked, if he asked you to remove totally, would you remove it? You would. Yes. A hundred percent. He read a rural diaries before it was out. It had been like, like the final edit was done. And so it was like a PDF of the final, final book. So had he said, I really don't want that in there.

I would have taken things out. But what he said for Rural Diaries was, this is hard. Are you sure? All right. I support you. Just because we hadn't talked about fertility necessarily in depth. Right.

But I'd read so many like hunky-dory books about women that had the best time ever and it made me feel like a loser. So I wanted to do the antithesis. I was going to say it's very interesting because there's a lot of that out there where people talk about their pregnancy in these divine terms and it's like it's a battlefield.

With this one, he, I think he was relieved, but we went through a good two years of a lot of loss. Just like people we really, really loved dying. And I think the older we get,

the more apparent it becomes that it doesn't stop, right? Like we've just hit that age where it's constant. And so how do we move forward with this new normal of loss being consistent without turning into monsters? You write about...

loss and suffering in a way that actually does not shut the reader down, but lifts them up and gives them a deeper understanding of maybe their own unresolved feelings about loss. Because we're made to feel shame about it. Yes. Right? Like, get back to work. All right. Back to normal. Back to work. And I think when you...

acknowledge that there are people who are written on the pages of your grimoire that change you forever, that's okay. You know? Certain losses will change you forever. And how fantastic...

You know, I ran out and I got two copies for my nieces for their birthdays coming up because I have two nieces that are so grimoire. How old are they? One is 17 and one is 16. Oh, I love that.

I just felt like this book would speak to them in a very profound way. Well, a lot of the things that are female coping mechanisms have been vilified, right? So like gossip, a bunch of women sitting around talking to each other, fixing a problem is gossip.

And that's gross. But if men do it, they're having, you know, they're brainstorming. They're productive. If women make a vision board, you know, oh, what a girly little hobby. And so if we can encourage women to take their tools and respect them.

Especially young women. What's really interesting is like how you were talking about how women, you know, used to share sort of homeopathic remedies with one another for things. And it could have like literally gotten them killed in years past because they would be accused of dark sex.

witchcraft, what have you. And, you know, you forget about all of that. You forget about how dangerous it was just for women to congregate in general throughout history. And now it's like we're a bunch of gossipy hens, or as Albert would call us, kakirons. Kakirons. Yeah, I'm going to wear that title with pride. I,

At the beginning of this book, it was really important to me to cite my sources. And people ask me all the time, they're like, if I want to go down this path, what are some good books? And so one of the books that I list in there is about witches and midwives and the origin story of this narrative. And what we found in reading that book is that when the noble families of Europe were

had broken up their land after so many generations and there wasn't enough land to hand down to the sons anymore. They were like, well, we'll give the land to the oldest son, but what the hell else are we going to do with these other boys? And they decided to create medical schools where they taught them lots of skills like leeching and lobotomies and stuff that we know is not cool.

Right. And so these boys would go to these medical schools and expect to then go off into the villages and be just exalted as, oh, we've got a town doctor. But all the villagers were like, no, we've got Helga. She's been taking care of us forever. You know? Yeah. And you had to vilify the Helgas.

In order to get the townspeople to go to these doctors. And this is how we did it. That's just vilifying women who have medicinal knowledge or just, you know, hereditary knowledge is part of the whole patriarchy, man. I hate to be the lady that just keeps hitting that note. Here's the thing. It's funny because I have...

I won't name him, but I have a child that accuses me of being a one-note patriarchy. You know, I'm always, oh, that old chestnut again. And I always say, it's like, I'm like, it's not a chestnut. I'm just going to keep saying it only because it's true. And so when it becomes untrue, then I will not say it because I'm somebody that likes to speak truth. And so when it is untrue, then I will stop saying it.

I can't wait for it to be untrue. Me too. I want it to be untrue. You know, you had such a special relationship with Willie Garson and you, you know, you mentioned losing him and, you know, he died of cancer and he entrusted you to sort of publish his memoir. Yeah.

Tell me about the responsibility that that is. There's some developments in that that I can't necessarily talk about because I am on strike. But it is definitely something that I am communicative with his family about. Great. And most importantly, his son Nathan, like the center of Willie's world is.

was and is his son, Nathan. And so Nathan is someone who I have loved since he was a little boy. He and Gus used to play together when Gus was an infant and Nathan was like eight. You know, like when Gus had his first birthday, Jeff was out of town working and it was Willie and Nathan that came over and played in the backyard with Gus. And like Willie was my person. And my putting that in this book was important because

I believe in transparency. I believe in like kind of forcing people's hands sometime. Like if I write it in my book that we're putting that book out, then I'm going to force some hands to put that book out. So that is something that is really important to me. And I think more than ever, especially with the strike that we are having right now, understanding the plight of the working actor who spends their whole life piecing together the

character arcs and little jobs here and little jobs there, but they add to the richness and the fullness of the story in a way that if you didn't have it, you wouldn't have a story, you know, like what he added to sex in the city and white collar and like every show that he was a part of, he added the flavor.

And I want to honor not just him in that, but all of the character actors out there that make the work better. Yeah. I always say that people that say, oh, this actor's strike and actors, what are they upset about? They're all rich. They're all...

anybody that talks about rich actors doesn't know what they're talking about. I mean, it's such a hard business. And most actors never earn a living as an actor. You know, it's all their side hustles. It's all the stuff they have to do to get by. I want to talk about, I am a true crime junkie like you can't imagine. So I read this article that people who gravitate to

to True Crime series. Like we are working out our own traumas. Did you read this? I didn't read that article, but I wrote a paper on this in college. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll send you the article. It was like NPR wrote this article and I was like, oh my God, they are talking to me. So it's called It Couldn't Happen Here. Yeah. So the TV show is,

is, you know, we go from city to city and, or not even city, we go to town to town and we find these little small towns where injustice has happened and we shine a light on it because it's wrongful convictions. It's people that have never been held accountable for murders they've committed because they know people in positions of power. All of these stories are swept under the rug because the media doesn't look at these tiny towns of 2,000 people and

So we will. And we are doing a podcast. It couldn't happen here. It's an iHeart show that is launching now. And what that allows us to do is, you know, TV shows 42 minutes and you can only fit so much information into 42 minutes. But when we go to these towns, we're there for over a week. Right.

So we have hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of interviews and footage and information that we now get to give to people through this podcast format. I mean, don't you – I'm not just saying this because we are on my podcast, but don't you love podcasting? I do. It's the greatest. It feels like you can just take a breath, right? Like we're not sprinting to just get to the commercial break. Like you can actually have a conversation with people.

a real conversation and like actually get things out there. You know, I just, I am looking forward to this podcast. Thank you. So yeah. So the podcast, it couldn't happen here is out now everywhere. You get your podcasts premiered on I heart and for the, for the true crime fan that feels like a vulture sometimes taking that content in, um,

What's different about our show is that there's a call to arms, right? Like you can participate in this in an advocacy way. You know, you can sign petitions. You can reach out to elected officials. You can lend support to the families who are affected by these cases. And that's what makes our show different from a lot of these other productions is that we don't just want to shine a light on the problem. We want to be a part of the solution. And we've already helped...

exonerate a man in Georgia. We have another case in Tennessee that we've been very productive in helping the Tennessee Innocence Project bring new evidence to light. We have someone on death row in Ohio, and jurors have come forward after our show aired and said, oh my God, we didn't know any of that.

You know, so the more people who get involved, the more justice will happen. And that's incredible. We have a good audience. That's incredible.

You know, you're also, I mean, I think that when you get involved in something, you always do it with a certain amount of passion. And with, like I said, in a business filled with artifice, you don't have any artifice. You are just your true self. And so it's easy to get behind everything you are doing before you sign off. Yeah.

Can you answer? We do this thing where viewers have written in questions. Yeah, hit me. So, okay. So this is from Vincent Melendez. Hillary, what is the most embarrassing thing you and JDM have done in front of your kids? Oh, God. In front of our kids? Yes.

We're really gross in front of them on a regular basis. Like we make out and are really like grabby with each other in front of our kids. Yeah. Because I want them to know that their parents are affectionate and like in love with each other. Yes. I think they really...

hate it when we try to talk cool to their friends like that that makes them crazy because for a while there I was the mom that was like I'll drive I'll drive because I was driving like a big Tahoe and a Suburban and stuff yeah when Jeffrey and I try to like

introduce the kids to some cool new music. Like there was one day where Jeff and I were like, Chaka Khan's on the radio. And we started singing, we started singing, tell me something good. And it was amazing. So bad. Like Gus was horrified. They don't want us to be cool. Parents is the thing. Like everyone, but you are the cool, but we're not, not to your kid. Maybe other kids are like, Oh my God, your parents are fun. But your kid, no dude, my 13 year old is just like, please, please don't mom.

I once played like Beastie Boys for his friends and he was like, Mommy, please, please stop. Please stop. Stop. Don't do that. Okay. Here's another one. Ready? This is a good one from Christian Becker. Can you be friends with someone from an opposing political party? Some people are not able to right now as things are so divisive.

So I live in a rural farming community. And it's about, it's always funny to me when I get accused of being a coastal elite on the internet, because I'm like, do you know where I live? And I come from a very conservative background. I've, you know, been very open about that. And so I don't think...

It's impossible to be friends with someone who is on the other side of the aisle. I hate that it's become football. I hate that it's become like opposing teams and rivalries and things. But I think that having open conversations about your ethics,

and your morality with one another is important. I don't think you should sweep things under the rug, right? I have members of the LGBTQIA plus family in my life that are so important to me. And so if I don't speak up for them, then I'm a shitty friend of them.

You know what I mean? And so, yeah, be friends, but be frank as well. If you can say that you're friends, then you should be able to tell the truth to each other. Yeah. And that's a cornerstone of friendship. Thank you so much for doing this podcast. I was excited to get to hang out with you in like not a six minute snippet. But anyway, so listen to this, everybody. Don't forget to pick up

of Hillary's books. The newest one is Grimoire Girl, Creating an Inheritance of Magic and Mischief. And of course, The Rural Diaries, Love, Livestock, and Big Lessons from Down on Mischief Farm. We love you so much. Thank you. We love you right back. We're going to make our family vacation happen. Fine. And my kids can watch your kids. Oh my God, that would be so awesome. Oh my God.

Think about that. Done. Think about that. Done. All right. I'm sold. Thanks babe. You are so wonderful. Appreciate it. Love you guys. Love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Well that was great. That was great. What's so funny is so she makes all of these book referrals within the book so she's referring books to you within the book and

And she's referring ways for you to start your own grimoire and things that you can. Now I'm going to get to the book now that she's signed off and she's going to be like, thanks, Kelly. But this is still in the podcast. So it's like she takes you through like if you're not good at journaling or not good at scrapbooking, like she takes you through how to start your very own book.

What have you. Naming your house. Naming your... Yeah. All of that. Okay. So stuff like that. And for my birthday, she had sent me the loveliest, loveliest gift. And the next gift I opened was a book on witchcraft from Kristen in PR over at Live. Oh, wow.

And it was one of the books that Hillary recommends in her book. That's crazy. How crazy is that? Wow. That's wild. I was like, I just read about this book in Hillary's book. That's wild. Is that funny? Yes. Like, what are the chances of that? It's crazy. Because Hillary's book hadn't come out yet. So I knew Kristen hadn't read it yet. Right. I just read like the advanced copy for the show. Yeah. Right. You know, so I had my hot little hands full.

on that. Love it. Okay, everybody. Don't forget to tell all your friends about us. Don't forget the five-star rating. We haven't been bringing up the five-star rating. We need the five-star rating. You know what's so funny? I can rate it for five stars too, can't I? Yeah, of course. But I never do because I always feel like

That's braggy to vote. I'm going to, we'll do it tonight. Albert and I will rate it tonight. Let's all sit down and just rate them all five stars. Because if we're not willing to do it, why are we telling other people to do it when we're not doing it? We're going to do it. We're going to do it. Anyway, thanks for listening. Can't wait to talk off camera next week. Bye everybody.

Let's Talk Off Camera with Kelly Ripa is a co-production of Melojo Productions and PRX Productions with help from Goat Rodeo. Our theme song is Follow Me from APM Music.

From Melojo, our team is Kelly Ripa, Mark Consuelos, Albert Bianchini, Jan Chalet, Devin Schneider, Michael Halpern, Jacob Small, Roz Therrien, Seth Gronquist, and Julia Desch. From PRX Productions, our team is Cara Shillen, Genevieve Sponsler, Megan Nadolski, Isabel Kirby McGowan,

Edwin Ochoa. Additional sound design by Terrence Bernardo. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzalez. This show is powered by Stitcher. From PRX.

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