The Church, Cancel Culture & Second Chances ft. Pete Wilson 57:17

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I'm so excited for today's episode of Unlocked because we have Pete Wilson here. Welcome. - Welcome, thank you. Glad to be here. - So, Pete has been in my life for, we were just talking about this, I think I was 18. I had just moved to Nashville, so 2016, around that time. And I like to do these episodes that are a little more personable sometimes because it's an interesting one. - I know, and I have no idea what we're gonna talk about. And I'm so excited.

Okay. So I did do you and your wife's podcast at one point. And what's the name of the podcast? It's called The Good Talk Podcast. The Good Talk Podcast. Pete and Jordan Wilson. I love it. You were so kind to do that, by the way. Thank you. We just started it. She's awesome. She's such a breath of fresh air. She really is. Okay. So let's start out. So 2016, we met. So we met because I went to a church here in Nashville. You were the pastor of that church. And during that time in my life, I had such a huge struggle.

Like internally just trying to, I feel like all of my trauma that I've ever endured hit me at one time when I moved out on my own. And to my grandfather, Southern Baptist minister, all the, and he's very old school thinking and I'm not that way. And then I hit a point where it was like, all right, I have to believe in something for me and not because I was taught to believe in it.

And then I started coming to church by myself. I heard you speak and it just connected. Like your connection with people is amazing. Oh, well, you're very kind. Like the humor, the being able to take the word and apply it to life instead of like, I'm just going to preach these words to you that are written here and it is what it is. I think that's what I grew up in. So I was like, I can't do that anymore.

- Do you think it was the trauma that pushed you to seek some kind of, what do you think you were looking for? - I think I was so empty and I think I was so tired of people telling me, like this is what you're gonna believe in. So for the first time in my life, I was like, all right, is this actually real? Like is, because if this was real, then why would this, this and this have happened? - Yeah, I mean, given where your life was at in that moment,

it would be a very natural response to be like, I'm having a hard time believing there's any God out there. This isn't just mass chaos. Yeah. 100%. And,

I think I just was longing to truly take control of my life and decide something for myself. Is this a path I want to take my life? Is it not? There was so much internal struggle. And I feel like so many people that have grown up in the church feel guilt or feel shame for questioning that. And there was never a time where I doubted that

But there were a lot of questions that came along with it. You're further along than me because I still have doubts. I do. I tell people sometimes, if I told you all the doubts I had, I would crush your faith. Wow. Because I do. But those doubts, for me, I use as fuel to keep exploring. Yeah.

own and really believe what I believe instead of just accepting things that have been passed my way. Yeah. Is that why you came alone? Because you needed to find something for yourself? I think I was so dependent on other people. Like my parents were so like major helicopter parents, like anything I needed did everything for me. And I think for the first time I was like, all right, I got to, I have to do something on my own. Like I wanted to take control. I wanted to

have enough guts to like go do it by myself. - Yeah. - 'Cause it's so easy to go with other people and take the attention off yourself. - Sure. - And not have to focus on yourself. And it's like, oh, I'm gonna go with them and help them. - Yeah. - But meanwhile, I'm not even there. - I always thought it was interesting. I don't think I've ever told you this, but our church for whatever reason attracted a lot of celebrities. - Yeah.

None of them ever came alone. Like there always was an entourage, you know, for different reasons. You know, maybe they were just a large friend group. You were the only person I ever saw just coming by themselves, sitting down and just being there. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. And especially for the age you were at.

Which, I mean, let's be honest. You've probably always been older than you are. I mean, you don't look older, but you just have that kind of old spirit about you. You feel, see things deeper than most people do. Well, when you endure hurt, you have no choice, I feel like. You have to grow up fast. Grow up fast, for sure. And I think that was a big, I just remember hearing you speak, and I was like, it connects. For the first time in my life, I'm like, it finally connects.

And I think also coming from a man, just because I was like the relationship I have with my dad. It's so he's the person I go to for everything advice. It connects better. And so I, it was just all the things that were like packaged in one and,

And then I finally got baptized. And when I got baptized, I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. Wow. I didn't tell anyone. And I actually have a video of my dad. My dad was in California. And when my mom told him that I did it, I have a video on my computer of him just sobbing. Wow. And was like, I'm so proud of you for having the guts to do something that I never could. I was just, it was amazing. Yeah. I remember that day. I remember it very well. It was...

And even just the song that was playing that day, like at that time when I was getting baptized, the whole thing, it was literally like you feel like a weight was lifted off your shoulders. Sure. And I think too, there also comes a lot of pressure that I don't feel a lot of people talk about. There comes a lot of pressure from,

when you get baptized because it's this idea of living a perfect life now. And you can't mess up and you can't do these things or it takes away what you did. Yeah. I remember one thing I do remember is you posted it, your baptism, which I thought was awesome. But I do remember feeling inside. I was like, oh, gosh, I hope this isn't setting her up for something down the road where people can look back at that and say, well, that was fake. You did that just for...

because I know your heart and I know that was a very sincere moment for you. And I thought it was really brave for you to share that publicly. - Yeah, and I even, you know how people, you know the hatred of people. And it's like, oh, there's this

idea that because you're a Christian or because you believe in something that you have to be perfect and that you can't mess up. And I have said, like, even we were talking about this whole Hillsong downfall really in Carl Lentz. And while everyone was like turning their back on him, I felt so bad for him because I was like, as a pastor, you have this

expectation of perfection. And that's not attainable for anyone. Not at all. And I, you know, I had my season. I went through a really rough patch. I went through a divorce. Obviously, I was very public when you're a pastor and you go through a divorce. It was a very, but even how the church went about it. And again, not to, there's a reason, and I don't say the name of the church. I don't, any of that. But to me, it was such a

First off, it took forever for me to even go back to that church when she left. And so many people, I mean...

have had the same story of like, I just can't do it. I can't do it. And I tried, I tried to give like each person a chance, but it just never felt that same level of connection, which was really difficult. And it felt like it just happened overnight. - Yeah, it did for me as well. I mean, of course, behind the scenes, you know, there were a lot of people who knew my marriage was in trouble. We were struggling. We'd been in counseling for 10 years.

And I'm sad it ended the way that it did. The marriage and the relationship with the church. And they didn't handle things perfectly. I didn't handle things perfectly. You know, I look back and for me that season, oh, the shame. I mean, I... I remember you standing. Was it a video? No. Well, it might have been at the service you went to. Or you stood on stage, one of the two, and it was just like, I can't.

or preach on marriage when I can't even hold my own together. - Yeah, it was the line I used, there's a line we always used at the church, which was, "It's okay to not be okay." - That has stuck with me ever since. - Yeah, and I used that line. I said, "You know, we've built this place on this concept of it's okay to not be okay, but I'm not okay right now. And I'm not in a place I can lead this thing." And I don't think at that time I knew

the amount of attention that would get and the amount of criticism and all that. I was not prepared for that.

But it broke some things in me in a good way. Like for most of my life, I lived for the approval of other people. And I had a long stretch of like a 99% approval rating. - You did, you did. - And in one moment, the whole thing fell apart. I went from 99% approval to like a 2% approval. And so it forced me to say, I can't build my life around trying to get other people to approve of me. That's a disaster waiting to happen for anybody.

And, you know, that first year after that, I was a recluse. If I had to go to Kroger, I'd go at one in the morning with a hoodie on. Like, I didn't want to see anybody. Because I don't think people realize, like, people who aren't in, like, people who are in Nashville that are listening to this know the church. Sure. People outside who know, they may not know of it. But in Nashville at that time, it was the biggest church.

in the city. Like it, out of three services, every single service was always packed. And I remember going back after you left and it was like almost empty. And it just was, and even to this day, it's still not what it was. And,

That's the, I could not imagine. I mean, I can't, but in a way it's like when everything, when my parents went down, I was like, when I left the house, it's like, all right, head down, head down, walk as fast as you can get to the point you have to get to and leave. And so I couldn't imagine how did you deal with that after you left? Like when you gave that last, I can't do this. Was it, were you in a situation to where it was like, you have no choice, but to give this to

No, I had plenty of choices. I think I could have stayed. I really do. I look back. I think I probably may. I don't know. I might have been able to stay and fight through it, figure things out, use it as an example that we're all broken. But what I knew was that I had nothing emotionally left inside of me. My tank was empty. And I felt like I would probably do more damage to the church by trying to stay there.

And I needed them, let them be what they need to be. And you're right, it's different now. It's probably a good different in some areas, maybe bad different in others, I have no idea. But I knew I couldn't do it. I could not, if they would have said, take two years off, heal, that could have happened.

But in that season, I didn't, I was suicidal. It's all I had done my entire life. It was your identity. My total identity and all that's gone. And I still remember I have a farm about an hour outside Nashville with a little cabin. I was sitting at that cabin and I had a shotgun in my lap. And I remember that was the first time I'd ever even thought this world would be better if I wasn't here. Yeah.

And if it hadn't been for the fact that I had three young boys, I think I would have ended it. I think for me, I just felt like I had no value. I had nothing left to offer. Everywhere I go, I do nothing but bring pain to people. I'd be better off not here.

- Wow. - It was a really, really tough season, but I'm so grateful for it now looking back. It did help me heal in ways I don't know that I could have healed without that pain. Do you feel that way about any of your trauma?

- Yeah, well I look at now how the resiliency of when I get faced with tough situations, how you figure it out. You're like okay, this isn't the worst thing in the world, I'll figure it out. Because you were once at a place in life where you had no choice but to figure it out. And you had, like you know the depths of real pain. It's kind of, you know, Grayson, 17 year old brother now,

We just filmed a podcast yesterday. And it made me so sad to hear him say this, but he said, you know, both my parents are gone. So now when a relationship ends or something, who cares? And I was like, I don't want you to feel that way because you can't.

just look at relationships as disposable, but I get it. Like I get it. You've lost the two most important things to you. So why is anything else to hurt any more than that? And so I like that pain people, you don't realize until you go through a life altering situation to where it's just like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. Or,

So that is, wow. So when you had that moment, what was the turnaround? What was the switch? I think for me, I realized how destructive the shame I'd gotten. Because being a pastor, going through a divorce, obviously, and to end the South out of all places. It's like the big thing you can't do. That's what it says in this Hillsong documentary. You're going to go home and watch it. You're going home and watch it because that's what they say is,

You can't be a pastor and not be married. You can't be, you know, like you look at all these pastors, they're all married. They all have kids. They all have this little picture perfect mold. And so when did you know for so long, like, okay, my marriage is over, but it can't be over. For sure. And do you think she felt the same way? Absolutely. Really? Absolutely. And we both knew there is a...

I guess you'd say maybe a business side to church. Yeah, there is. Right? And that if we were to get a divorce, that's going to, you know, that's it. You know, she had a separate ministry as well that was going to damage her, and I'm sure it did. And then on top of that, you have all the other reasons you don't want to go through a divorce. Your kids, you know, you just start making the list. Yeah. And that's probably why we fought.

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Shame makes you want to just tap out and say, I'm done. I'm not going to write anything. I'm not going to speak anywhere. I'm not going to do anything public. I'm just going to go into my little cave. And that's what I did for a couple of years. And at some point along the way with some healing, it just felt like, you know what? I can't live this way forever. I can't just tap out. Like, I feel like God's given me too many opportunities and

And there's too many people I care about, genuinely care about that I feel like I can help. Yeah. That I can't just sit on the sideline forever. Well, I remember, I think, being so angry at the fact that like,

I knew the amount that you had helped me really. There were times where it literally saved me going to church during that point in my life, literally saved my life. And I thought to myself, how can so many people turn their back on someone who has saved so many people? And so I think that was a tough part was the shame that you felt. But then there are also people like me out here that are like, okay, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to not be perfect. It's okay to mess up.

So forgive yourself, you know? And I think that was the hardest part was like, okay, can't you just like figure it out? Selfishly, just figure it out. It took me a while. That forgiving yourself part is huge. I remember when I was in therapy through all that and

the counselor was talking about everybody kind of has a life message, right? Something that they kind of project into the world. And he's like, what's your life message? I was like, for me, it's pretty easy. Everyone's welcome because nobody is perfect. And you probably remember me saying that a lot. It's on the walls of that church. I think it's still there. Maybe not now, but everyone's welcome because nobody's perfect. And he said, you know what? He said, I think on the other side of all this,

your life message is gonna be the same message, but it's gonna sound a lot different because now you're gonna believe it for yourself. You believe it for everybody else. And I did. Yeah. There's nobody in my...

life in my world that could mess up to a point that I would stop loving them. So why do you deserve less than that? And that's how I felt. I was like, it's true for everybody but me. And I really believe in this concept that God could not love you any more or any less than he does in this very moment. I really believe that.

But I couldn't believe it for myself. And so until I got to that place where I could extend that kind of kindness and grace to myself, I couldn't get rid of the shame. It's so crazy because this conversation is literally what Grace and I had yesterday. Because I asked him, I was like, do you want me to feel how you feel right now? He was like, no, never. I was like, okay, then why are you allowing yourself to feel that way? So it's so hard for us to see our worth, but it's so easy to see it in everyone else. Yep.

And it's that way for everybody. I spend the majority of my time these days life coaching people. And I love it because I can see things in them they cannot see in themselves. And it's so easy for me. I feel like it's a gift of mine. But they can't see it. And these are usually very smart, successful people. - Yeah, high functioning. - High functioning. But it's like, I was thinking about this with the Hillsong documentary.

and just about really successful people who have some kind of public fall. And often it's tied to like, so you have this outer world, right? And that's business, it's relationships, you know, and this thing is as your outer world is growing, and for some of us it expands really big, you got to make sure your inner world is also growing at the same pace.

And I look back and I think for me, my outer world had been growing so fast for so long and I wasn't taking enough time to care for my inner world. And when those two things get mixed up, eventually that outer world will crush your inner world. Yeah. If it's not growing at the same pace. Yeah. And that's why we see so many, you know, well, we see them for two reasons. Number one, because they're public. So it's all over the place. Right. But two, because

The second reason we see these really successful people sometimes fall, trip up, whatever you want to call it, is because the pressure of their outer world is so massive that it eventually crushes something inside. How could you explain or help someone understand the pressures of being a pastor and being a leader? Really? You know, there's that pressure that maybe...

the congregation doesn't realize or understand and they expect this perfection. - Yep. - But it's inevitable. - Yeah, and I think there's the external pressure and then there's the internal pressure, right? So you have the external pressure of you know

you know that people have high, high expectations. That there's really no room, especially in this, you know, we're inside of this cancel culture where you know you do one thing wrong and it's as if you never existed. I'm not a big fan of cancel culture. - Not at all. - It's okay if you are, I'm not. - I literally had one of my first episodes that talked about how much I hated cancel culture. - I think it's done a lot of destructive things in our culture today.

And it's crazy because we have such a culture right now of such acceptance. Yes. Yeah. But yet we want to accept while cancel on the other hand. Yeah. And that's where I have problems with it. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. You're either going to cancel people or you're going to accept people all around the board. Yep. Here's the sad thing for me. I think cancel culture came from church culture.

I think church culture taught the rest of culture cancel culture. Church was doing cancel culture before it was popular. - That is, wow. - It's what we did. And I'm not talking about a specific church, just in general religion.

Top, you mess up, you're out. We'll kick you out. We'll excommunicate you. You don't believe the way we believe, you're out. Yeah. And we modeled that. And eventually the rest of culture caught on to it. They're like, well, they've been doing it. Maybe we should try it. Yeah. And they are. And I believe eventually things will swing back around. But I think it's doing a lot of damage to a lot of people. That, wow. That is so true. I feel like the Pope is going to come after me now or something. Yeah.

I know he watches your podcast. I'm sure he does. Why would he not? Yes. No, but that is so true because there's that pressure of no sex before marriage. No, you can't be gay. You can't have a divorce. You can't all these things. And two, if you really look into the Bible, I mean, what does it also say? You can't cut your hair. You can't eat.

Certain me, you can't, there's all these things. So if you, and that's the hard part for me, because when it comes to people, you know, being gay, I have some of my best friends are gay and we know what the Bible says about it. But at the same time, we also know that God had your life mapped out for you before you were ever even conceived. So if he controls every ass, it's, it's such a hard thing.

conversation to have. Yeah. And there's a lot you pointed out, there's so many things throughout the Bible, that even in modern Christianity, we don't really pay a whole lot of attention to these certain things. And the way I try to explain it to people is that I believe the Bible was written for us. But the

but the Bible wasn't written to us. It was written to a very specific group of people living in a very specific time who were dealing with all kinds of their own cultural issues, right? So there's gonna be some things in there that just don't add up or make sense. So you gotta remember to kind of just look at the whole of it, right? And what's that main message there?

and be real careful about taking this verse here and this verse there and making that your message for your political movement or whatever. Yeah, because at the end of the day, I've said, you know what? Jesus is like loving people and loving people well. It's not up to us to decide if the decisions you're making are right or wrong. Who am I to judge? My job is to love you and love you well. And I know if I do that, then...

That's all that I need to do. And so what would you say the shame that you felt with divorce? Because there's tons of people that are believers that have this shame of, okay, and now I'm not worthy because I've been divorced. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think there's probably nobody who goes through a divorce. My Keurig Brewer from Walmart always comes in super clutch.

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Of course, it doesn't have some level of shame. You know, you tend to look back and say, well, if I had done this, if I had showed up in this moment, if I had never said this, right? You play through every little scenario. And marriage in general is your highest highs and your lowest lows. Yeah. Right. Because you in that relationship give that other person the capacity to love you deeply, but also hurt you deeply.

And so it's this roller coaster for everybody. And so I think for the person that's going through a divorce right now that feels that shame of I should have done this, I should have done that. You know, I'm remarried now. I was able to take all the lessons of what I learned about what to do and what not to do. Right. In the context of a relationship and apply them to what God had for me next.

And, um, and that's really part of the process for me that helped me overcome it. It feels like it's over, but it's not over. That's what I would say. It feels like it's over. That's okay. But it's not over. Well, it's really now is your chance to rebuild and it doesn't have to be, um,

all negative because you take every experience and everything because you said you weren't perfect. You could have done things differently. You know those things. So now that you know those things, it's your responsibility to do better. Yeah. And so was it hard for your kids when you got remarried? Not for my boys. They, you know, they really...

We dated for quite a while. So they got a chance to know her. She was fun. She, from the beginning has communicated them. I'm not your mom. I'm not trying to be your mom. I'm here to help. Would love to guide you if you ever need it. Know that I'm here, but I'm not trying. You've got a mom. You've got a great mom. And I'm not trying to get in the way of any of that. I just want to love you and support you. And that...

I see that and I'm like, that is, because now at my age, also too, like we've said, I'm like definitely older in certain aspects. So like I've dated people who have kids and I've said the same thing to the person I've dated. I would be like, my job would never be to like,

be their mother. I was like, they have a great mom. But you know, some women come in and they're like, oh, I'm gonna be mom, I'm gonna do this, that, whatever. And there's a lot of respect to be had for her handling it that way. - Yeah, it takes a lot of confidence to walk into that. And she never had kids. And now she has three teenage boys.

It's like, that's a lot. Yeah. And so when you guys had your little girl, she's so cute. I love following you on social media. Love it. So when you guys had her, was that a big, was it a big change for everyone involved? Like were the boys good with it or are they? Yeah, I think because they were older, that helped a lot. Right. So there was no competition. No competition. They've had fun. They're the best big brothers to her. And I'll never forget when I told my oldest son,

that, you know, pregnant or having a baby. He was so kind. He was so, and, but he sent me a text that night when he left and he said, I'm so happy for you, but I'm also really happy for me. And it melted me like just melt him. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's the coolest thing ever. That is amazing that they really saw it as kind of this cool little surprise blessing as well. And to ask kids, you know, how much,

I'm learning how much they really are listening when you think they're not. So over the years, there had to have been a point in time and have your old, like have, has your oldest express the fact that he was like, I knew you and mom weren't happy.

You know, we really haven't talked a lot about that. We did certainly when we were going through all that. I think they knew they would have had to. I think as parents, we think sometimes kids aren't seeing and observing everything, but they are. Yeah. So they knew. And I'm sure that was difficult on them. And I think the divorce was difficult on them. I like to say that I think divorce is.

probably hurts all kids or most kids. Maybe there's some unique situations where they're like, yes, but most of the time I do think it hurts them. This idea that mom and dad aren't going to be together all the time, but it doesn't have to harm them. So there's a difference between hurt and harm.

And the harm comes, in my opinion, from immature adults who are going through a divorce who then use the kids as manipulation. Yeah. That's when you transition from hurt to harming them, possibly for a long, long time. So I think, and I'll give my ex a lot of credit in this as well, you know, we worked really hard to never use the kids in any way to

To never like, you know, try to get them to love one of us more than the other. You didn't bad mouth. We didn't play those games. Yeah. And I think that probably allowed it to hurt them, but not harm them. Well, that's when you reach a point in time to where you're like, all right, we're two adults making an adult decision. That's right. So now we have to act like adults and put our own...

feelings aside because we created these human beings and now it's them. As much as we want to act like kids, as much as we want to fight, whatever, there was important. That's right. Yeah. That's interesting. There's a difference between hurting and harming. That is so true. I've definitely seen friends go through divorces and I'm like,

I've had to like talk to a girlfriend of mine. I'm like, I know you want to do this. Just don't think of it this way, you know? And it's, you just have to. Yeah. Well, relationships are the same way, right? It's not just divorce with kids. You can end a relationship in a way that it hurts somebody and it almost always will. Or you can do it in a way that harms them longterm. And I think the goal is to try. Try to just hurt. Try to just hurt them. Yeah.

Yeah, try to just hurt them. Yeah, just hurt them. Yeah, it's fine. As long as you're not harming and you're hurting, it's all good. That's insane. Okay. So now, have you thought about going back into being a pastor again? I don't think I'll ever go back to full-time being a pastor. I like the idea of, and I still speak at churches. I have a great church up in Detroit, Northridge Church. I speak up there a lot.

I love them. I love that place. I just don't think that's the path that I'm on these days. And I love, I feel like, although I'm a life coach, I'm really a pastor to these individuals, right? And what I love about it is that, you know, I love speaking, but it only goes so far. I can throw some nuggets out there to get your mind going, but usually that's as far as it's going to go.

In life coaching, I'm able to take that knowledge, give them the knowledge, but then help them actually put it into action, which is where the change really happens. Yeah. And so now I get to go really deep with a very small group of people, which is the exact opposite of what I did my whole life, where I kind of went surface level with thousands. And maybe I'll do both at some point. But right now I'm loving to go in deep with a few. Yeah.

Okay. So when you speak at churches, like if you're going for your first time speaking at a church, do you talk about your story? Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. You know, it's hard to lead with that if people don't know the whole story. You would be the best person to lead with it because you're always so funny. I could see you just getting up there and being like, I'm the divorce.

the divorce guy yeah you know it just creates people in their mind start wanting no details and why what happened and then they miss kind of where I'm actually going for the next 20 so I kind of there's certain environments I talk about it certain environments I I just don't yeah it's kind of irrelevant in that moment like they're more important I don't want to make it about me

Yeah. But I do think my messages, although they're somewhat similar, I think they probably sound a lot different to people. Yeah. And they don't know why. I know why. And...

I think that that freedom I discovered through all that, I want to give that to other people. I am a firm believer that your life is moving in the direction of your most powerful thoughts. So it's all up here. So what kept me locked in shame were the thoughts I had about I'm not worthy, right? I screwed up. We have 70,000 thoughts a day. Did you know that? I did not. 70,000 thoughts a day. And here's the kicker.

Science tells us only 5% of those thoughts are new thoughts. So we tend to think the same thousands and thousands of thoughts every day over and over and over. So you've convinced your mind of certain things. And I think the reason people aren't accomplishing the things they want to accomplish

It's not because of some external force. It's because of the story they keep telling themselves. Yeah. And then their mind looks for validation and they find plenty of it because that's what they're looking for. Yeah. 100%. Have you ever thought of going into some sort of like prison ministry? That would be awesome. You know, back in the day... It's the things that you're speaking about. Literally, it's like you are not...

Your mistake. You're not what you've told yourself you are. And obviously now with my parents situation and people that I've spoken to that literally have like gotten out of prison who have come to me and talked to me to hear how our system just completely destroys these people. Treats them like garbage. And then why are they to think that they're any better than that? And look at the stats. Yeah.

I mean, they get out, they go back. - Yeah, the recidivism rate, the United States has the highest out of any country, which is crazy. And I think there is that longing for something to believe in, especially when you're sitting there

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And it shows them how to correct it and correct it easy. So stop throwing your money away and cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com/savannah. That's rocketmoney.com/savannah. It's such a difficult situation. I have a friend that went to prison about a year ago and we've been writing letters back and forth. And I've seen over the course of the year

Like it feels like his hope becomes less and less. Cause it sets in. Yeah. That's the thing. It's at first, it's kind of like this. All right. It's not going to be so bad. I can do it. And you're figuring out something new every day for the first few months. And then it's just like, this is what it is. This is my reality. Yeah. So have you like ever thought about maybe going into these prisons and. Not before this moment.

- Really? - But you're planting the seed for me. You know, the church that we keep talking about that I was at, we had a campus inside of a women's prison. - I miss that so much because they don't do that anymore. - Yeah, that was such a cool thing. And I'll tell you this quick story. I don't think I've ever told this story.

But after I left, I didn't have much contact with anybody. Yeah. But I got an envelope with about 150 cards in it. And it was from those women in the prison. And I felt seen. I was like, there's very few people who probably understand me right now, but they do. And they gave me grace. They gave me grace that there are very few people who are willing to extend me in that season. And it was a game changer for me.

I remember that, and I would remember seeing those videos because there would be videos of you guys going in and doing what you do. And it's when people have no one, and within the first five years, I want to say it's 80% of people within our prison system lose contact with all family. So they have nothing. They don't have family. They have nothing to believe in. And all they keep telling themselves is,

I'm not enough. I suck. I am what I did. I am what I'm accused of. I ain't like I'm all these negative things. And it's especially during COVID too, whenever visitation was shut down for all these people for a year, they had nothing to believe in. And there is, I know for my dad, the lady who worked the chaplain where he's at is who saved him on his first few days.

And so it's like to be, it's just crazy to hear your story and how it can connect in so many different ways. - Yeah. - And how it is. That's more, in all honesty, that's the atmosphere I wanna be in. - Yeah. - I don't wanna be in a uptight, hoity-toity church to where everyone's like, oh, I'm gonna put on my Southern Baptist sundress and you know,

be perfect and go to lunch after like I don't want that and it's not to diss on anyone who does want that you've already got me in trouble with the Pope now the Southern Baptist Convention is coming after me

Hey, they've had their fair share. But, you know, there's I want to be in the messy. Yeah. And I say that first time I was so afraid of going to visit my dad the first time. And I just remember walking in that room and I'm in a room with all these guys. And I say I'd never felt the presence of Jesus more than I did in that room at that time. How cool is that? And I felt such relief.

Like it was the craziest thing because you go in and you see these smiles on people's faces.

And what we don't take a second to do is hear their stories. And what we also don't have in our system is therapy or proper guidance. And so to be able to go into these prisons and be able to speak to these people would be so interesting. I love it. And it really goes back to even where we started talking about that documentary. It's like what happened in that moment for you is you

Until that moment, you didn't see a person, right? You saw a problem. That's how most people look at the prison system. We see a problem. But they're actually people. There's stories behind that. And there's stories behind the documentary that we watch and that we don't know about. And I think sometimes in our culture, we forget these are people. We're all broken and our brokenness looks different.

These are people, the ones who do some of the things that we think are just the worst things that could ever be done. These are people, and they have stories. Well, you look, this pastor, Carl Lentz, who everyone knows about the whole scandal. In the documentary, he says, as a kid, I was sexually abused, and I never dealt with it. And so, therefore, I got to a place to where it just started coming to me.

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coming out and not to give an excuse. Okay. Just cause this happened to you, you're allowed to do this, this and this, but it's the truth of the matter. We all are a product. He's not saying it made it okay. Exactly. He's saying this is why. And it goes back to what I was telling you about that as your outer world grows and that platform grows and money grows and all that, if the inner world isn't growing at the same time, it's going to collapse. Yeah. And that's essentially kind of what happened. He had some inner world things that he hadn't dealt with,

but now he has a chance to deal with it. Yeah. Right. So what's the one, what's one challenge you would leave people with today? I would leave with, do you like, you know, when we talk about this, this concept of your life is moving in the direction of your most powerful thoughts. My follow up question to everybody would be, do you like the direction your thoughts are taking you? You know, it's like if, if thoughts are things and I believe thoughts are things that have tremendous power in our life,

then we've got to pay attention to where those thoughts are leading us. So I do this little exercise with people. I do it with you. There's three questions I ask myself every morning. And that's, how do I want to create myself? How do I want to create others? How do I want to create the world?

And so when I ask how do I want to create myself, I am training my mind to say this is what I believe about who I really am. I'm a good husband who loves to be attentive to my wife. I love my four kids. I love spending quality time with them. I'm a good leader. I'm creative. I'm a great life coach. I'm telling them this is who I am, right? Then how do I want to create others? And this one

makes people think, well, how can I create somebody else? Well, you can't, but you can create your thought about them. So I could start my day with my wife doesn't,

doesn't really care if I'm here or not here. You know, she's not attentive to my needs. I can start with that. And in my mind, the rest of the day is looking for proof of that and it'll find it because that's what it's looking for. Yeah. Or I can start the day with, you know what? My wife loves me unconditionally. She's phenomenal. She is in this a hundred percent. Right. You see how that, it doesn't change her, but it changes the kind of energy that I show up with. That's right. Yeah. Which changed because I,

It just has such a huge impact. And then how do I want to create the world? You know, I can choose to say, oh, I'm living in this world right now. It's going crazy and the economy is terrible and politics is nuts. And, you know, this is Biden's fault or whoever, Trump's fault or whatever. Or I could say, you know, I live in a very forgiving world. I believe I live under the disguise of an incredibly gracious God who's been good to me over and over. And even the things that have come my way that I didn't want,

Looking back there are things that I needed. And I'm gonna go into this day ready to receive whatever comes my way because I know that it's God helping me through this journey. And those three questions alone helped change my mind shift for the entire day. Yes.

I think I can say that I love myself more than before everything happened.

because I think I'm a true version of myself now. I was chasing, you know, in life we set all these different goals. You know, for me it was at one point, we wanted to reach a thousand people with our church. And then it became, we want to reach 10,000 people, right? And you set all these goals and you attach different things to them. But ultimately what you're really chasing is a feeling. And I was chasing a feeling of significance. And I thought if I could get that goal,

then I would feel like I matter, that I'm significant, that I'm making a difference. The problem is you cannot achieve an inner feeling with any outward reality. So the goal kept moving, right? After 10,000, we got to reach 20,000 because I'm sure if we reach 20,000, then I'm going to feel significant.

And so I did that, but it's a disaster when you're trying to fulfill an inner desire with some external reality. And I had to feel significant first and then chase whatever I want to chase, do whatever I want to do, pursue any calling that God gives me in my life. But it could not, I was never going to achieve it chasing after it. I know that you like take full responsibility for stuff that happened and like, you know,

Oh.

some institutions like abuse that for control. Like you have to pass through us to get to him. Sure. But for the people who aren't abusing it, you weren't like, how did it abuse you? That viewpoint that like, Oh, the bridge between people and God. And like, what pressure did that inflict? Oh, geez. That's a good, it's like, wow. No one's ever asked me that question. Um,

Yeah, I think that there's, it does go both ways. I do think it's possible for you to be in a, you know, you're in this position, you never really asked for it, it just kind of starts happening, things start, you know, and the pressure builds more people, there's more requests, you're writing more books, speaking in more places.

And so you it would be easy to see how you almost feel like you're a victim of the machine The only problem with that is I had the ability at any time to hit the stop button to hit eject and say no more I'm not writing another book. I'm not going on this speaking tour We're not gonna add another service. We have five that's enough. I could have done that Yeah, but again, I go back to I'm chasing this feeling and

And it's like the most important thing in the world to want to feel significant. And so I ignored all the warning signs and just kept, I gotta feel significant. What's so sad is it was there all along. It was there all along. I didn't have to chase after it, but I couldn't see it and feel it.

That's what part of the crisis did for me. It's why I feel like I can love myself more today than I did back then. I loved a version of myself, but it wasn't really me. Well, and I think there had to have been a sense of relief that came over you when it all came crashing down. There was. Because you're like, that wasn't who I was. And I wasn't given, like, you just didn't have, you weren't allowed to truly be who you were. Yeah.

Yeah, well, too, for me, I was chasing significance, but the second feeling right behind that was acceptance. And I think when...

You make acceptance this external thing that you have to achieve. It's going to lead you to unhealthy extremes, whether you're a pastor, an influencer, an artist. It's a dangerous cocktail, this power. And I'm looking for the desire for approval. You mix those two things together. And again, bad things are eventually going to happen.

And so, yeah, I was chasing significance and acceptance. One of my favorite things my dad, we grew up hearing, was it's none of your business what someone else thinks of you. I love that. Yeah, that was like... Your dad's such a wise man. I always try to remember that. That's great. That's really good. This is by far my favorite podcast. Oh, you're so sweet. And I'm so happy that the world gets to experience a little bit of really what...

kick-started my journey to healing. I'm really proud of you. I'm proud of everything you're doing, the way that you're handling it with so much grace and love for the people around you. And I wish nothing but amazing, beautiful things coming your way. And when they do, I hope you can receive them and know that you deserve them. Thank you.

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