EP.43 [EN] - Thanh Le: Coin98's Journey in the Global Multichain-verse / Coin98 在全球多链宇宙中的旅程 59:43

Hello everyone, you are listening to the 51st episode of the Multicoin Capital podcast series. I am the host, Mabel. This series is mainly about the rapid development of blockchain in Asia, especially the views and communities of Chinese entrepreneurs. This program hopes to be in the form of a dialogue, to connect the East and West, and give the audience a more understanding of the industry. This podcast will include Chinese and English discussions. The language you hear now will be the language I use in this program.

Thank you for listening.

Hi everyone, welcome back to 51%. I'm your host, Meibu Zhang. This week, I'm really pleased to welcome Thanh, the co-founder of Coin98, to join us at 51%. Welcome, Thanh. Hey, Meibu, thanks for having me today. It was my pleasure to have the first time on 51%. Great to share our stories and what we're building at Coin98.

Yep, absolutely. 51% has been kind of focusing on a lot of the Asian project. I think probably this is the first time ever I invited someone who's based in Vietnam to join John's show. So I'm sure like a lot of our audience is actually not very familiar with, you know, what's going on with the ecosystem there, what you were doing before CoinIDA and also what you're doing with CoinIDA. Yeah, sure.

So before CoinID, I was an embedded system engineer. So my first start-up is during the time that I started in the university. So it was a research lab that I

I worked there and then we co-found the first outsourcing companies with some of the guys in the research labs. So at the beginning, we offered some kind of services to the tech startups in the Silicon Valley and some of the companies in Europe and Australia.

and you know companies who are doing um you know uh smart watches you know wearable products betting i think 10 12 years ago um and then during that time when we you know we uh develop those kind of you know uh embedded system you know building the everything from scratch

building the hardware and then building the firmware on top of the hardware and also building the software running on the firmware that we're able to build. We have a lot of time working with some of the manufacturers in

China as well, when we can really verify what we already built, coming in the real life. It was the time that I've learned the most about how can we turn a system that we design on a computer to something physical that you can really use in real life.

So we found that company with some of my friends in the research lab for five years until I kickstart my second startup, which is an e-commerce company. We innovate the physical products that already have on the market.

but also working with the manufacturers in Alibaba. And then we do, we build our brand there and then we ship all our products to the Amazon and then start building a brand and selling on Amazon. And after that new week when we already have more sales, we scale it to, we start building our own website and start looking for more ways to promote our products.

So I did that business before 2017 when I think a lot of people, Bitcoin went up and a lot of people, my friends, they asked me to learn more about this stuff. At the beginning, I made some good money as well, but then after that, during the bear market,

Instead of giving up the market, I started to learn about opportunity in the market and that's how we started building CoinIDA. CoinIDA back in the day was just a research

team that we're trying to understand about the technology, how should we invest as an investor. But then over time, when the market went down from 20,000, when the price went down from 20,000 to 6,000 and then 3,000, I do see a lot of

you know, OGs in the space, they already left the market. And after, you know, months of doing research, I do believe that this is the technology that's really helped the most reward ratio. If I put more time and effort and money into this kind of technology, maybe, you know, when we will get a reward in the next like two, three years after building it. And then,

I switched my focus from part-time doing research in crypto, then full-time and then start building the companies. Things just rolling out until how we got today.

Got it. This is super helpful. Thanks for sharing the, like how you kind of started and where you are right now. Other than yourself, I was intending to ask you, what are some of the other interesting projects that's in Vietnam or in Southeast Asia? I think, so, yeah,

Some of the projects that I really am a fan of them, who are building the projects from Southeast Asia. The first one is Band Protocol.

The second one is probably Amphar and Khyber and Axie. So they are some of the teams that I really, really love working with. And also I think they, you know, at the beginning we started as a research firm, but then we started to forming our product arm, building our own product. We got inspired a lot from those kind of builders as well. They really

shows the world that if Asian builders can just step in and build their own product and serve the global user base, it makes me think that if they can build that kind of product, we can do it too. So we can start learning how to build one for ourselves.

Got it. This is interesting. Yeah, I think that the examples that you gave are mostly applications. And I do realize that oftentimes, Asian teams have an edge building applications because they like to iterate very fast, and then deliver rapidly.

So you've earlier touched upon some of the product lines that you have. You have a matrix of product under the Coin98 brand, the wallet, analytics slash research outlet, and then also the DeFi applications incubated by you guys and also the bridges and so on.

So can you maybe introduce a little bit more to our audience what Coin.98, like the product lines are, and then why are they important to the larger Coin.98 ecosystem, how they work with each other?

Yeah, sure. So CoinAid basically have three arms. So the first one is our product arms. We call it CoinAid Labs. It's a kind of product factory where we hiring a bunch of researchers and engineers. And then we also is for untapped products.

opportunities on the market who, you know, some kind of, you know, problems with people, people, the users really, really need a solution for that. But there's no one, no builders that already step in and build a perfect solutions for those people. So we, we explore those kind of demand. And then we just step in and we build, you know, the product and serve to those kind of audience. So that's CoinAid Labs, a product factory.

The second one is we call it like CoinAid Network or CoinAid Media, where we focus on educating people to learn more about crypto, what kind of product they should use, what kind of product they're really looking for when it comes to invest.

And the last arm that we just started recently, which is Coin.net Ventures, is kind of when we already established and then we think, we know that it's really hard to build something meaningful, something from scratch to become something really zen now. So we think

we just want to come back and support those kind of builders to have a really good bootstrap at the beginning. So that's basically three arms that we are building at CoinIDA. In terms of strategies, I think

Coin.ne.a Labs is more about, like I said, you know, building a startup or, you know, or a product is really, really hard. You know, it doesn't mean anything if you build a product that have no users. So the media arm is, you know, on one side is educating people to, you know,

to learn more about crypto. But on the other side, it also serves an initial user base to test and really give us the feedback at the beginning. A lot of features that we already ship in for Coin98 wallet and Coin98 exchange at the beginning, we think that these features might be helpful. But then when we ship it to the market, we immediately receive a lot of feedback from the users where they

they really come to us and they request for other features. So it's totally different than what we already thought and we assume at the beginning. So I think having an owning a user base

like that really really help us, you know, it have us Can you know accelerate the flywheel where we can really build, you know, we can come up with a solutions we ship it in you know in the fastest way and then we will receive the feedback from our our users and then we we improve it and we should reshape it again to the to the market as It have us have the most and the plastic now

flywheel when it comes to product development. So it's really, really helpful. The venture's arm in the other way is help us to verify what we thought about the technologies, the DeFi legals and how everything was built in this industry. So

And also it's more about expanding the influence of Coin.Eye Wallet. So before we started Coin.Eye Ventures, I think a lot of people, they only know about Coin.Eye Wallet and then other products. But we feel it's hard when we do some kind of partnership working with other protocols because we didn't know

about as much but then when we start founding the you know the ventures arm and doing um you know more investment like that we have more influence and and more chance to really work with the teams that we already invest and to integrate coin wallet and then also we can all uh when we already issue c98 tokens is is um it's a kind of ecosystem where you can really use c98 or you know um

expand the utility of CNIDA to a much broader market. So that's basically what we're doing at CoinIDA and how everything is aligned to one single goal, which is trying to expand the whole ecosystem.

Right, that's fascinating. So you touch upon a bit on the feedback loop that how, you know, kind of bootstrap the passive flywheel for your product development. I'm kind of curious to dive a little bit deeper on that one. Is that a formal kind of governance process? Or is it more just that, you know, you guys are very scrappy, kind of listen to people's on Discord, on Twitter or whatever? How is that process actually looks like? And how do you scale that?

Yeah. So currently, I think, you know, at the beginning when the team is small and, you know, we have, we handle, you know, most of the conversation on Telegram and then on, on, you know, you know, and through emails, but then when the users start, you know, growing quickly, uh,

and you and at some point where we need to serve with some kind of like thousands of tickets per day uh we start to you know we'll be looking for a better way to communicate with them and currently you know the best we we uh the best solutions for us right now is to support them through the live chat yet uh so inside of coin wallet if you use corner wallet app then when you click into

the CoinIDA logo, there will be a live chat box out there where you can really report the problems or you can request or you can just send us some kind of thoughts that you think we might improve the product. Or if you're on the web, you can just go to coinida.com and then there will be a live chat box right in the bottom. You can

and just contact us 24/7. We already set up a customer service team who really support all the users that are using CoinID products to make sure that we can track all the problems and solve all the problems for the users quickly.

That's super cool. I'm sure that, you know, the fact that I actually noticed this, like it's, you know, across from multiple Asian based team, like they have very good customer service and operation team. Although like we think DeFi is something completely open source and permissionless, but at the same time having strong community support and having strong operational support definitely helps.

So thanks for sharing that. On top of that, I noticed that CoinETA has been supporting a lot of different chains, like not just the EVM compatible ones, but obviously, you know, Terra, Solana, and also some of the exchange oriented chains. So why do you think multi-chain support is important? And then at the same time, like, you know, to support that many chains,

it's definitely going to take a lot of your resources. How do you think about kind of allocating some of the resources to the chains that might be having less traction, but, you know, still taking quite a bit of your resources? Yeah, this is a very interesting question. I think about this kind of, you know, you know, research allocations allowed as well. So first, yeah,

talking about the the uh how how we thought about multi-chain support is important um in our um

imaginations, I think the future of blockchain is like that will be at some point in the future where we when the technology is already involved, we will see there will be thousands or even hundreds of thousands of blockchain that are available on the market. But then each blockchain has their own ecosystem, their own economy and what we're talking about is some kind of

digital nations. One of my conversations with Trum, which is the CEO and co-founder of Axies, a few months ago also verified me about this kind of thoughts as well, where he said that at that time, I think Axie user base is somewhere around 200,000 users and they are generating millions of transactions per day. He said that

You know, the Ethereum gas fees right now is so super high where their user base normally, you know, the value of each transaction every time they make of their users is very, very small. It makes...

it just makes no sense for those kind of users to pay a very, very high gas fee when they're trying to transact a very small kind of value. So that's why they started to build... And also, their user base is really, really huge. It makes sense to them to just starting to figure out ways that they can build a

a kind of like blockchain platform for their own community and they call it a digital nations for um for axis uh users um i think that's that was the original stories where they started building running blockchain and i think this is some kind of the thesis that people or the builders have the most users

At some point, when they already have a lot of users, maybe starting to figure out ways to build their own chain. And if we are living in that multi-chain future, there will be times

thousands of chains available on the market. And then you, as a user, you want to, you have one asset on roaming and sometimes you want to convert into Ethereum. And then you also, you want to do some trade on Solana. So I think the multi-chain future is something that's really, really important.

that we really think that might be something that we are well heading to. So then come back, if that's something that the futures, that you really believe about the futures of blockchain and multi-chain, then you want to be one of

the key or the core contributors to that trend. But then when you're trying to support a lot of chains, there could be a lot of resources need to be allocated, like you said. So at CoinIDA, we spend a lot of time to build a framework that can help us to support more chain at scale.

It took us more than a year to build this kind of framework. So before, I think in the early days, it took us somewhere around a month or even two months if we want to integrate a new chain. But it's, you know, the

like the duration for the chain integration slowly, slowly, slowly reduced from a month to two weeks to one week and right at this stage we already have a framework that we can integrate any new chain in just one or two days. So I think that wouldn't be a big problem for us. And, you know,

Talking about wasting those kinds of research, we treat it as a risk and reward. Every time we decide should we integrate this chain or should we prioritize to integrate this chain or not?

So like I said, currently, it only took us one or two days to integrate a new chain. And then when we believe in the multi-chain futures and starting to get more attention, a lot of people, they start to building their own blockchain platform. They're starting to

the ecosystem on those things is starting to grow. And then there will be a demand for users on that blockchain platform as well. And that blockchain itself is going to spend a lot of money and effort and resources to bootstrap the whole ecosystem. That's where we really want to... We are seeing it

I like a grow hacking strategies for Coin98 where we can becoming the first wallet that can really support those kind of new blockchain. And also not only layer one blockchain, but also layer two like Optimism or Arbitrums or recently Boban Network as well. I think we would treat it like, and if,

The reward of those kind of integration is huge for us. Sometimes when you support 10 different chains, and then one out of 10 can have you to bring in the next 100,000 users for Coin.ai, I think that already considers a successful decision for us. So that's our approach in terms of resource allocations.

and how we thought about you know and why we support so not so many chains right yeah i guess what you're saying is that i think i like your marginal cost kind of framework of

thinking about this. And also, I think what you're saying is that basically, it's like the idea of diversification. I mean, some of them might, you know, just kind of go and bang, but at the same time, like, you know, if some of these actually take off, then, you know, the cross selling benefit is actually going to outweigh a lot of the original and the initial costs that you spent on top of it. And especially, you know, yeah, sure. Right, that that totally makes sense.

Yep. So I think our biggest success for this kind of strategies, I would say is Solana and also BSC. So we support Solana, I think back in DeFi summer last year when, you know,

I think even before Ethereum was started and was built. So we evaluate the technology as we decided this kind of technology can really scale. So we just wanted to be coming one of the first builders and wallet provider to support Solana. Back in the day, you cannot use Metamask or other wallets. I think the only options at that time is Solent. But Solent is not really support on Solana.

So we wanted to become the first one to support Solana. And then back in the day, I still remember that Solana ecosystem is

there's not many things that you can do with DeFi and the ecosystem on Solana, right? But then the ecosystem start growing very, very quickly. So we didn't spend any budget for the marketing, but then you're just trying to work with some of the builders on Solana and really work with the Solana Foundation trying to figure out how to introduce Solana to the retail users

I think by forming those kind of partnerships and collaborations, it helped us to acquire tons of users. I would say a few hundred thousand users just by supporting Solon and really working with those guys to figure out how we can grow together. And that's one of the really, really successful cases for us. And we really think that we can take the advantage of moving fast

um you know support us kind of new emerging chance so to acquire the users for coin idea

Absolutely. This is amazing. I definitely saw that you guys were early. And then I think your users benefited from a lot from this, especially given, you know, while a lot of the other multi-chain, they call themselves multi-chain wallet, but they don't really support anything outside of Ethereum virtual machine compatible systems. So I think you definitely wrote that trip.

So related to this, I actually have a question that I was very curious your opinion. I remember you asked me this question in the past as well. So it's what makes a smart contract platform worth $100 billion market cap in your opinion? I think this is a super interesting question. I think a smart contract platform that worth hundreds of billion dollars market cap should be a

smart contract platform that serves billions of users from all around the world. And with that amount of users, it means that smart contract platform can basically serve daily needs of the users. So I think the first thing that that smart contract platform needs to

deliver is like it needs to be you know fast really really fast i think somewhere around more than a million tps gonna be uh you know it's something that we are we might looking for at this stage and then it should it should be you know super cheap for for the users to pay for the fees as well so i think you know a lot of people they they really uh

think that Bitcoin is going to be really used in real life, but then it's super slow and the fees that you need to pay for transactions is high as well. It's not some kind of technology that really can go to the mass adoption, but instead I think a smart contract platform

At that stage, mass adoption stage, it's going to cost something like $1 or $2 per transaction. It's going to be great. And it should be fast, really, really fast.

Right. I mean, I think, you know, kind of tapping back to what you said earlier, I think for some of the application, if they are large enough and have their own ecosystem, they might also go to the route of like running their own private chain or at least like part of it will be on a private chain. So that actually does not add a lot more load to the public chain. I think that's also like a kind of mixed future is also what I could imagine as well.

So I think I definitely agree with what you said. But I think on top of that, you know, some of the larger ones that have like higher workload may even add another layer of private chain to have some portion of the application run on top of that. So that's interesting. Coming back to Coin98, I'm curious about the...

you know, the demographic, the current traction of your users and also the behavior of your users. So if there's any public data that you can share, what's the traction look like for Coin98 as of today? And then where are your users based? What's the demographic? Yeah, sure. So Coin98 user base is usually dominated by users

Vietnamese user. I think back in the day, 60 to 80% of our user base are coming from Vietnam. But at this stage, it's quite diversified, I would say. So nowadays, I think 30% of the user base of CoinIDA come from Vietnam. 40% of...

They come from Asian countries like Indonesia or Philippines or India. 10% come from United States and developed countries like Australia or Europe. And 20% coming from emerging countries like Turkey, Brazil, etc.

So it's quite diversified. One interesting that I really love about is like the way that people use CoinID is not really for...

CoinID is a CoinID wallet, right? It's a wallet. But I think people not only use CoinID to store the assets, but I think they want to use CoinID to interact with DeFi protocols and also NFTs projects on multiple blockchain platforms. From what I'm seeing and

and the feedbacks of the users. Every time that they switch from MetaMask or Trust or other wallet service provider to use CoinAid, it's because we allow them to access into some kind of DeFi product, access to the DeFi ecosystem on different chains. And those kinds of chains is not available on other service, wallet service provider just yet.

So I would say, you know, the way that people use CoinAid wallet is not, you know, I think we can, you know, we support them, the ability to store and send and transfer the assets. But at the end of the day, the way that people from what I'm seeing, the way that people really use CoinAid wallet is as a tool to access into DeFi protocols and also, you know, NFTs and the metaverse.

Right. Do you see a different user behavior pattern between the users in Asia or like just Southeast Asia versus the users in maybe Turkey or United States?

Yeah, so the user behavior of users in emerging markets like Vietnam or Indonesia or Turkey, Brazil is quite similar. They kind of like short-term users.

investment opportunities or anything that they can have them to make money. They can take high risk, but then they want to exchange for a higher reward in a very short time. People in the developed countries like United States or Europe or Australia, they kind of, you know, they love

much safer products like lending, some kind of yield farming, kind of like low risk investment or low risk opportunities.

that on one side can help them to save the money, but on the other side, they can make some or earn some yield on top of the money that they have. So far from the way they use the product, I do see the real difference between those kind of users from developed countries and emerging countries.

Got it. That's interesting. So I kind of related to what you said about some of your users use Coin88 because you offer, you know, better access to support to some of the decentralized applications, decentralized finance applications, etc.

In your kind of understanding, why did you or the team want to build your own bridge in addition to offering the existing bridges that's available across different smart contract platforms to your users? Yeah, so...

The first one is the reason we want to build our own bridge is first for CoinIDA tokens and then for other partners that we work with.

In my network, we do see the trend that a lot of traditional builders, tech startup founders, they're starting to explore opportunity in crypto and building their own blockchain project. They are going to issue their token anyway. And then they were looking for a

a service provider that can really help them to convert their assets between teams. So I think building our own bridge can really help us to control the tech stack and then provide better support for those kind of partners and also for C9 tokens.

And from the way that people are using Coinet wallet, I do see the trend where people only switch. I think 60 to 80% of the time people use Coinet wallet to switch or convert their stablecoins between coins.

BSC, Solana, Polygon and Ethereum. And for some cases, they also converted to Avalanche and New Change Line Near as well.

So for those kind of popular chains, we might want to use our own bridge. So first we can control, you know, we have better control with the tech stack. And second one is we can provide a much better customer support. The second thing is

But then, like I said, we do believe that in the future there will be thousands of chains going to deploy and the ecosystem on those chains will grow as well. So we can build anything. We can build anything.

Our resources are limited as well. But on the same side, our users also really need a solution to convert the asset to those kind of chain.

So in this case, to fulfill the need of our users, but then we don't want to burn out our dev resources. We also want to build a kind of aggregator, a bridge aggregator where we just integrate other bridge solutions into a .NET wallet.

So the users can still, you know, on the front end side, people can still convert the assets between chain, but in the back end, if it's not a popular chains or layer to use, but we really want to

host our tech stack, then we might want to use other bridge solutions to provide a service for the users. So that's why we, on the same side, we build our own bridge, but we also support assistant bridge that allows users to convert assets between different blockchains.

And then related to this question is that you also incubated some projects for the Solana and Terra ecosystem. So I understand that building the bridges is definitely a more convenient solution for some of the users who are just switching across different chains within CoinIDA Wallet. So how are you thinking around incubating these projects for Solana and Terra?

Yeah, I think... So Terra is just like... We just started exploring Terra ecosystem recently. But I think we spent a lot of time to contribute to Solana ecosystem since day one.

The way that we treat it is like first we want to support the builders on Solana ecosystem because I think CoinID, we want to ask Solana ecosystem growth. We want to see every protocols on Solana support CoinID wallet. So it's also a part of our growth strategies. The second one is

there will be a lot of things like we can really expand the utility of C98 tokens on those kinds of blockchain platforms as well. As you might know, C98 is issued on Ethereum, Binance Smart Chain and also on Solana. So we are looking for builders who are offering

other types of services like landing or significant assets or margin, some kind of technologies or protocol that we can really first integrate into .98 wallet so people can use

Those kind of protocols right from Coinrnit wallet. The second one is, we also want to expand the utility of C98. Let's say, a lending protocols that we invest, we also want to hold a part of their governance token. So in future we can vote for accepting C98 tokens as collateral asset on that lending platform as well. So that's the way that we think about

It's more about strategic investment to expand the utility and also the user base and also the brand awareness for CoinIDA brand. Got it. That's super helpful to understand. And I do think there's a lot of value to go a long way if you foster a developer community around your product as well. So kind of kudos to that.

And, right. And do you agree with the thesis of DeFi super apps? The reason I asked this question is that I think to some extent, coin 98 is a super app because your users probably do probably everything in your wallet. Right. And

So I used to have this super app thesis for a while, but now it seems to me that today, because of the compatibility in DeFi, we probably don't need the super apps anymore. So I'm curious your take on this question.

Yeah, so I think DeFi is a super app. We thought about a lot about this kind of thesis in the past as well. I think at this stage, from my experience, I do a lot of split tests during the time that I grow CoinID wallet, the user base for CoinID wallet, to testing this kind of thesis. I think the wallet itself is going to maintain as a super app.

People nowadays don't use a hot wallet just to store their assets. They also want to interact with a lending protocol in terms of they want to use the assets as collateral, they want to stake in a specific protocol, or they want to swap it into another asset.

assets. So they want to use those kind of, they put those assets to, you know, to make more money for them or to, for a specific purpose. So,

Wallet, I think that would be maintained as a super app where the protocol is going to stick with one chain. I only realized this thing when recently I took our research team, did some research about the growth of multi-chain products and protocol. And then we realized that every time that a

In very few cases, a multi-chain product wins a native protocol that was built on that chain. For example, we all know that Shoei or 1inch already deployed on BSC, but people still prefer Pancake Squad because it was native

on BSC and and Shusei also deploy on on Polygon as well but and then

I think the developers and the whole poly, I think, you know, Quickswap also receives more support from the foundation as well. And, you know, a lot of builders when it comes to, when it comes to, you know, building stuff on Polygon, they probably want to prioritize their liquidity

on Quicksquap rather than than social swap. And it's also happened the same with Fantom or with Solana as well. The developers, I think there's several reasons for this. The first one is multi-chain product is, I think the contribution of a multi-chain protocols to a specific ecosystem is not

It's not that much compared to the native protocol built 100% all in for that chain. When a multi-chain product deploy a protocol or a product on a specific chain, they also, on one side, they can send their user base

to use those kind of chain. But then as the ecosystem on that chain, you know, explode, there will be a lot of people using that chain as well. And then you are a multi-chain product and you use a lot of, and you are one of the key builders on that chain. There could be a lot of people, you capture a lot of users from that chain and then you support the new chain who have access

very little user base. So it's more about you capture the user base from one chain and you send it to a new chain that never have or you have very little user before. I think in terms of resource allocation and support allocation from the foundation perspective, this is something that really makes the foundation to think about how should

how much effort they should support a multi-chain product or a multi-chain team as well. So I think protocol itself want to stick with to have better support and from the foundation and also take the advantage of being native on that on specific chain is much better than go multi-chain. And then

for the interface or wallet like us is going to be maintained as a super app where we can support all the blockchain platform and all the ecosystem whatever that you need that kind of because the wallet or the interface in crypto besides centralized chain wallet or interfaces is

are the people who own the most user base. So I think in this case, when a wallet service provider who have a very large user base work with a DeFi ecosystem or a specific blockchain platform, it's more about a win for the

the ecosystem or that specific blockchain more than a win for the wallet. But then the wallet can capture, let's say, 10% of the specific chain, but it can support hundreds of blockchain platforms. So that's also a win for them to diversify.

So I think this kind of test is going to be just the way that we thought about what the market is running at this time. This might be changed.

over the time, but I think we also, we are, I'm taking a look, I'm really go deep dive into this, watching the way that people use. And also we following the growth of other DeFi protocols, other DeFi wallets, interface, and also the ecosystem on the specific chain as well. So we can figure out what is the real way that we can think about

growth in this space for for the foundation for

for a protocol and for a service provider like us where we can really form a win-win-win partnership. Everything in this space, when they collab with each other, there will be a positive super game that we can, you know, I'm not taking your user base, you're not taking our user base, but then we collab together and we can attract more users from traditional finance to decentralized finance.

This is super interesting because I literally had this conversation internally about, you know, why is Sushi trying to go all multi-chain? But however, it didn't become number one in any of the chain other than, I mean, even in Ethereum, it's not number one. I think the only place that they were number one was a...

What's that? No, no, no. Xdai. No, no, Xdai. Yeah, so like all of the other ones like Polygon, BSC, they're usually like, you know, beyond like definitely not in top three. So my kind of conclusion around this topic was that, you know,

In order, maybe the only thing that could make this whole multi-chain strategy work is that they also have a cross-chain bridge that is in their interface. Because otherwise, whatever money that's on Ethereum on Sushi is not going to go to the Polygon one or the Avalanche one. Because the money in Avalanche, they want to go to Trader Joe's. They want to go to the place that has the best liquidity, exactly to what you said. So I thought this is super, super interesting.

Yeah, so even if you are supporting those kind of blockchain bridge, that will be another solution that comes in. It's like, so far for EVM based chain is easy because you can use only one single app like Meta Pass to access into those kind of blockchain platform. But then if you want to, let's say you want to build a protocol on Ethereum and then you want to build another protocol on Solana. At this stage,

when you build the bridge, the users need to use two different apps, two different wallets like Phantom and also MetaMask to access into those kind of bridge. So that would be a problem from user experience perspective as well. So that's why I think, you know,

To bring a better user experience for the cost of, if you want to offer those kind of Russian bridge, you need to own the wallet tech stack where you already support

the users to access into two different chains and store access into the assets on two different chains at one interface. So that's also the reason why we, at the beginning, focused on building that technology.

before we start building the bridge. So if you already control that wallet tech stack, it means that when on one single interface with one single wallet app, you're only accessing to the assets on two different chains and the user experience at that time is similar to the user experience when you trade two assets on the same chain.

Right. Yeah, it is not going to be easy. I think you're right in the sunset. I think whoever owns the customer, like that stack should be the aggregator. Other than that, I think being a focused approach is always, it's probably going to be a better solution.

I was just going to say that even if it's just not multi-chain, even if it's like a application trying to build lending swap and maybe some of the other function in one DeFi project, I think it's still not functioning the best. Correct.

primarily because the compatibility nature of DeFi. I think people prefer that, you know, one project focus on one specific thing and then, you know, you have the brand awareness of that specific solution and then work with other ones rather than one project try to do a lot of things at the same time. So I think this is definitely interesting discussion. I mean, I personally got impacted quite a bit by the super app thesis that, you know, it's,

quite strong in Asian culture. You've seen a lot of conglomerate in Southeast Asia, in China. So naturally, I would think that would apply. But I realized, it took me two years, but I gradually realized that the super app thesis may not be as valid when it comes to the open-ended type of protocol layer. So I think it's an interesting discussion. Yeah.

We come towards the end of this conversation. I do want to ask you one last question. I think that's probably the most pivotal and also a hard question in this one. What do you think of the ultimate state of wallets? Do you think it would be a winner-take-all game like the browsers, or do you think we'll see something different? Yeah.

I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future, but here's what I thought about this. So I think the future of wallets will be something like, you know, the technology will be upgrading and improving over time. So at some point, I think the users don't need to care about your assets on what chain, but then you only need to

You just use one single SIP trace and you basically can store all the assets from maybe from one, from similar to the way that you use a centralized exchange or a custodial or centralized custodial wallet. So I think in future,

anyone who can build a wallet that's surfing, those kind of users experience is going to be the winner. And yes, I think that could be a...

winner take it all but for specific markets like if you are a uh you know you're gonna be like a winner take it all when it's come to you know surfing a wallet for a game uh game game players or it comes to you know you are going to you know um the winner take it all wallet to support a you know uh

DeFi ecosystem or and also it's also different, you know when you're serving, you know users from you know different countries different, you know demographic as well

But yes, I think in the future when the technology is quite mature, I expect to see the wallet with the most user base going to have the most influence and also

take the most market shares when it comes to serving people accessing to DeFi and Metaverse. And that's also the thing that we are trying to achieve at CoinID as well. So currently, CoinID has more than a million users base and

When we talk about mass adoption, you know, popular platform nowadays owning billions of users, serving billions of users all around the world. And we want, and, you know, talking about mass adoption, I think,

a decentralized or any builders in this space if they want to build a product that really come to mass adoption that product itself or that platform itself gonna deserve you know billions of users from all around the world and and

Yeah, one of the things we realized when people use a wallet is that it's very easy for people to switch between the protocols, but it's very hard for them to switch between wallets. People are too lazy. They want to store their assets on one single wallet address and then

you know every you know and let's say if you already use mid ms uh to store all your assets there is you don't want to you know export your private key and you import into too too many uh wallet uh uh you know uh service provider because you know you don't want to take any risk about security um

What if we import the SysRace into a scam or a fake application? That would be a really bad case for us. Normally, users don't want to change the wallet depth very often and they don't want to import one single SysRace into a lot of wallets.

So I think in the future, that will still be a winner-ticket-all game for a wallet that can really serve the largest user base. The wallet who can serve billions of users will be the one to take the most of the market shares.

in this market and yeah we're trying to do whatever we can to put Quantity98 into that position. Great, I appreciate you sharing these. These are super insightful comments. I'm sure this is also some question that people have been thinking about for over the past two, three years because obviously I think people on the one hand see the clear business model of Wallet

because that's the kind of on-chain or Web3 kind of entrance for everyone. But at the same time, people are also wondering, you know, what's the kind of go-to-market and how do you attract users? And then also, like, if that's going to be a super competitive Red Ocean. So I appreciate the insight that you shared. And this...

send in conclusion to our podcast today. I really appreciate you joining today. Thank you for the time. Yeah, thanks. Thank you for having me today. It was a great honor for me to have a chance sharing about what we are doing at PointIDA. It was a really good conversation and thanks for having me again, Mabel. See you soon in the next episode.